Shocked, Saddened, and Disappointed

[Aetherous]

Buddha didnt charge, Jesus Christ didnt charge, John Chang doesnt charge. It's an issue of of individual morality obviously. Strike me up one for not charging. Those are the badasses I was speaking of.

 

If they actually healed me or taught me something truly substantial, I would pay them. Even if they didn't insist on it. Strike me up for charging.

 

A sign that the ego is crafty? Not charging anything doesnt mean youre faux humbled either lol. Have you ever volunteered for anything ever? Did you think it was a waste of time or did you get some sort of satisfaction because you did a good deed? Have you ever donated to charity? How about anonomously? How about when you do something like any of the above you dont brag about it but keep it to yourself?

 

Donating your skills is great. But I am arguing for the healer/teacher who has to live in this society, where they need to pay rent and be able to eat something.

 

Our society has no respect for those that don't "work". The societies that Buddha, Jesus and Chang live/d in aren't like ours. Buddha begged. Jesus accepted whatever people gave him. And those things weren't really obstructions. But in our culture, if you're homeless and jobless it's a toss up whether you'll be able to make it. Everyone is too busy to listen to what the homeless have to say. Not many people believe in healings, and as is obvious from this topic, not many believe a healer should be supported financially.

 

If for any reason we should be "shocked, saddened and disappointed" it's because of this.

 

But I'm not saying that people who do this stuff for free are fakes. If they have the means, then good.

[h.uriahr]

[h.uriahr]

[Blind Owl]

[h.uriahr]

Edited October 31, 2008 by h.uriahr

[goldisheavy]

I must say I'm shocked and disappointed at the Exorbitant pricing I'm seeing for Qigong, Medical Qigong, and Taoist classes lately.

 

Are these classes becoming only for the super-rich?

 

Ahh, I really feel for you on this issue. I have infinite sympathy for your plight. I will talk honestly now. Everything you hear in society is basically bullshit. Even if you meet the highest and best Qi Gong master, he cannot teach you anything at all. Why not? Learning from others is a deception at the ultimate level, but why is that so? Because if someone tells you something, you have to recognize it. If you recognize it, it is because you already knew it at the heart level. If you don't recognize it, the other person might as well be a rock or a bird or speaking a language you cannot understand. So, the very best that a teacher can hope to do for a student, is to evoke the student's inner knowing. But there is a problem. The teacher always, invariable has his own motivation that is not the same and that is not in harmony with the student's motivation. Why so? That's because in the mind the student and the teacher are seen as two distinct entities. Now, if you think that beings are separate and that they communicate using an objective medium, you are said to be living in convention. This convention is ultimately a deception, and wisdom that comes from it is always diluted, deceptive, and often wrong, because convention is always based on the baseless premise at its root. I hope I am making this very clear.

 

It is hard to believe, but you have all the wisdom that is ever possible. You are omniscient and omnipotent. The reason these teachers appear to you is because you have agreed to disempower yourself and to delegate this power to entities that you believe exist. So you separate yourself from others and then you shift most of your authority to others. This is called a projection of authority. This is how conventions form. Because if the authority is external, there is no way to understand it completely -- that's the very nature of external entities, the uncertainty. The external is always more uncertain than the internal, because they are conceived that way by the mind. Because in your understanding all beings are external to each other, they don't know exactly what they are saying. So they have to convene, and discuss. In this discussion there will be disagreement, but after much argumentation and swinging of fists and threats finally people agree on how they will talk and behave. The people, mind you, still don't exactly understand what they are agreeing to, but they know if they talk and act a certain way, it is relatively safe. So a person who is considered more in tune with this agreement is called "conventionally respectable". Usually such a person has degrees and other papers that signify that many other people respect this person. It doesn't mean this person knows anything at all, but it just means the society, as conceived by YOU, respects this. Because of this, this guy feels justified to charge any price. Often this guy feels special and unique and more knowledgeable than anyone else. That's because more people agree with him than with others. But keep in mind, all this game is maintained by YOU. You are basically ripping yourself off. You are spanking yourself, but you don't understand this process yet, that's why you complain. You are similar to someone who hits his hand with a hammer and then complains about the hammer hurting the hand, all the while ignoring the fact that you are the one swinging the hammer in the first place.

 

So, nothing in convention has conventional reason to ever be truly nice to you. If you ever meet someone who is truly nice, consider it a miracle. This niceness is not born of conventional reason. This person will be like your friend. This person will not dominate you by using a conventional authority. This person will help you think your issues through without telling you "how it is". You will know how it is on your own, and this person will not get in the way of that. They won't demand a penny from you. But such one is rare, and in order to meet such one, you must have purified your mind to a high degree. While your own mind is still quite dirty and polluted with many ideas you haven't questioned yet, you will continue to encounter people who will rip you off and who will seem like they come for your heart, while in reality coming for your wallet only.

 

Understand -- it's your own spiritual insecurity and ineptness that is causing this to happen.

Edited October 31, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Blind Owl]

Your statement about lazy back stretching was pretty stupid. Many of the peole who dont stretch, dont do it because they didnt see a need to do, not laziness. Construction workers, old schoolers especially dont stretch much, but that's because they never saw a medical need for it. Obviously the older they got they say a need because of how torn up their bodies got but it was ignorance not laziness.

 

Badly phrased maybe but not I think stupid. I was refering to people who repeatedly seek out doctors when the solution has been already been given to them.

 

eg: I know someone who constantly complains about lower back pain, and pays to have it streched out of her every two weeks. Her chiropractor has given her stretches, I have recomended stretches. She doesnt do them, even though it would take her about 10 min total.

 

I am not so dumb as to equate ignorance with laziness, but I see how you may have arrived at that conclusion.

 

And so what seemed like an unprovoked and insensitive attack on my wife seemed perfectly reasonable to you, such is the joy of internet communication.

[h.uriahr]

Ok so for the record I'm against chargind. I'm for donations. That's all I have to say about that....No more from me on this subject....I'm just gonna sit right here....All by myself....Not a single person to play with.....sniff sniff

 

 

Badly phrased maybe but not I think stupid. I was refering to people who repeatedly seek out doctors when the solution has been already been given to them.

 

eg: I know someone who constantly complains about lower back pain, and pays to have it streched out of her every two weeks. Her chiropractor has given her stretches, I have recomended stretches. She doesnt do them, even though it would take her about 10 min total.

 

I am not so dumb as to equate ignorance with laziness, but I see how you may have arrived at that conclusion.

 

And so what seemed like an unprovoked and insensitive attack on my wife seemed perfectly reasonable to you, such is the joy of internet communication.

 

I agree that there is a small, or maybe very large percentage of people looking for handouts.

[bindo]

I agree that working on donations is probably the best way. If you're really good, you will probably earn more money on donations, rather than a set fee, anyway.

 

I have a regular job, so that has a lot to do with why I work cheap or for free.

 

I don't mind paying, but I've always had an issue with how much some people charge for healing.

 

I think it should be affordable for everyone, so people return on a regular basis for health maintenance and as a preventive measure rather than only going when we are really sick or in pain.

I think many alternative health practitioners are missing out on a large segment of their potential clientele by charging too much.

 

Also, the willingness of the client/patient to pay for healing is part of the healing process.

[hyok]

they should all have regular jobs instead of teaching or healing full time. either that or take donations.

 

i do like the idea though of a teacher choosing his student wisely, instead of asking for $X amount and teaching anyone who has the cash.

[Satori]

John Chang is a multimillionaire so he doesn't need the money.

 

As far as Jesus and Buddha goes, who knows what benefactors they may have had.

 

And from the Peaceful Warrior:

Mahatma Gandhi, nonviolent leader and political activist, advised all of us to live simply, so that others may simply live. Gandhi did indeed live according to these high ideals; wearing a loincloth or other simple garb and spinning his own cotton, he took only what he needed, and he gave whatever he could. But Gandhi had help from others. Said one Indian industrialist who donated millions of dollars to Gandhi's cause, "It cost me a fortune to keep Gandhi simple."

 

Free is easy if someone else is doling out the cash.

 

I have no problem exchanging value for value.

[de_paradise]

The way I see it, teachers have mortgages and families too, plus they spent alot of time on a non-career oriented spiritual path. If you cant give to a teacher, then you must really have an attachment to money.

 

Alot of people have the assumption that anything Buddhism Taoism qigong must be free if its authentic. These are people not quite behind the 8-ball in spiritual path 2008 reality. Sure, the basic stuff is all free on the net.

 

What I see is that some of the more secret stuff from Asia, energy practises and transmissions, sometimes can be available to us if we are lucky enough to find it. Now we have not done years and years of devotion to earn these things, but if the teachers are willing to part with it for cash, then that is lucky, and a quirk of living in a capitalist reality.

[Walker]

Very interesting, Gold Is Heavy, very interesting.

[Baguakid]

GoldISHeavy,

 

Ridiculous reply. I'm talking about apples and you've spent 20 minutes telling me about oranges.

 

de_paradise,

I don't think ppl should teach for free but I also don't think ppl should teach basic knowledge for Exorbitant fees either.

[h.uriahr]

John Chang is a multimillionaire so he doesn't need the money.

 

As far as Jesus and Buddha goes, who knows what benefactors they may have had.

 

And from the Peaceful Warrior:

Mahatma Gandhi, nonviolent leader and political activist, advised all of us to live simply, so that others may simply live. Gandhi did indeed live according to these high ideals; wearing a loincloth or other simple garb and spinning his own cotton, he took only what he needed, and he gave whatever he could. But Gandhi had help from others. Said one Indian industrialist who donated millions of dollars to Gandhi's cause, "It cost me a fortune to keep Gandhi simple."

 

Free is easy if someone else is doling out the cash.

 

I have no problem exchanging value for value.

 

John Chang wasnt always a millionaire and before he made his way into business he still didnt ever charge one single cent. You come up to a problem when you say value for value. The value of what some teachers offer is priceless. Why not then charge millions? If you are worth a shit at all when it comes to teaching or healing, then by word of mouth you will have patients and students. Obviously some of those people will give you donations whether you want to except or not. I personally feel as though that's how it should work. Donations are fine but flat out charging isnt morally correct.

[h.uriahr]

Ahh, I really feel for you on this issue. I have infinite sympathy for your plight. I will talk honestly now. Everything you hear in society is basically bullshit. Even if you meet the highest and best Qi Gong master, he cannot teach you anything at all. Why not? Learning from others is a deception at the ultimate level, but why is that so? Because if someone tells you something, you have to recognize it. If you recognize it, it is because you already knew it at the heart level. If you don't recognize it, the other person might as well be a rock or a bird or speaking a language you cannot understand. So, the very best that a teacher can hope to do for a student, is to evoke the student's inner knowing. But there is a problem. The teacher always, invariable has his own motivation that is not the same and that is not in harmony with the student's motivation. Why so? That's because in the mind the student and the teacher are seen as two distinct entities. Now, if you think that beings are separate and that they communicate using an objective medium, you are said to be living in convention. This convention is ultimately a deception, and wisdom that comes from it is always diluted, deceptive, and often wrong, because convention is always based on the baseless premise at its root. I hope I am making this very clear.

 

It is hard to believe, but you have all the wisdom that is ever possible. You are omniscient and omnipotent. The reason these teachers appear to you is because you have agreed to disempower yourself and to delegate this power to entities that you believe exist. So you separate yourself from others and then you shift most of your authority to others. This is called a projection of authority. This is how conventions form. Because if the authority is external, there is no way to understand it completely -- that's the very nature of external entities, the uncertainty. The external is always more uncertain than the internal, because they are conceived that way by the mind. Because in your understanding all beings are external to each other, they don't know exactly what they are saying. So they have to convene, and discuss. In this discussion there will be disagreement, but after much argumentation and swinging of fists and threats finally people agree on how they will talk and behave. The people, mind you, still don't exactly understand what they are agreeing to, but they know if they talk and act a certain way, it is relatively safe. So a person who is considered more in tune with this agreement is called "conventionally respectable". Usually such a person has degrees and other papers that signify that many other people respect this person. It doesn't mean this person knows anything at all, but it just means the society, as conceived by YOU, respects this. Because of this, this guy feels justified to charge any price. Often this guy feels special and unique and more knowledgeable than anyone else. That's because more people agree with him than with others. But keep in mind, all this game is maintained by YOU. You are basically ripping yourself off. You are spanking yourself, but you don't understand this process yet, that's why you complain. You are similar to someone who hits his hand with a hammer and then complains about the hammer hurting the hand, all the while ignoring the fact that you are the one swinging the hammer in the first place.

 

So, nothing in convention has conventional reason to ever be truly nice to you. If you ever meet someone who is truly nice, consider it a miracle. This niceness is not born of conventional reason. This person will be like your friend. This person will not dominate you by using a conventional authority. This person will help you think your issues through without telling you "how it is". You will know how it is on your own, and this person will not get in the way of that. They won't demand a penny from you. But such one is rare, and in order to meet such one, you must have purified your mind to a high degree. While your own mind is still quite dirty and polluted with many ideas you haven't questioned yet, you will continue to encounter people who will rip you off and who will seem like they come for your heart, while in reality coming for your wallet only.

 

Understand -- it's your own spiritual insecurity and ineptness that is causing this to happen.

 

You do understand that certain systems have certain practices that are put in order for success to actually happen in that system. Like the Mo Pai for example. It's nice to fantasize about just waking up being able to do all of things that all the masters can do, like John Chang for example but it doesnt work that way. While its true that realization helps in progress but that's not all there is.

 

You dont roll out of bed with a dream and desire and willingness and knowledge of being a doctor. You go in steps. You dont hop onto a weight bench and load up 350 and start hammering out reps. There are people that charge money to teach you and they have abilities and are great teachers but I dont think it's right to charge. It's up to the practitioner if he or she feels the teacher is worth the money. The best teacher's I've ever met dont charge a cent, just blood sweat and tears as they say.

 

Most of us will walk through life blindfolded to reality. Some of us will read a little something or feel a little something or see a little something and be inspired and want to learn more. It's ok to have a master or teacher that can instruct you because most people dont know what to do. It's nice to wake up and realize that we are all apart of something bigger but then what? Do you devote time to meditation, prayer, work, what? People dont know that answer usually. The uninitiated, when you mention meditation, they think of a yogi in a cave going " OOOMMMMMMM" all day and night, they know nothing of moving meditation, lying meditation, or that yoga is meditation etc. Some people have a natural knack of picking up on certain meditations, like Wim Hof.

 

I agree that we are all capable of awakening to a whole other level of existence, I wouldnt say it's just a flip of the switch however.

 

 

On the flipside you could maintain another job and heal on the side.

Good for her.

 

However, a point has been brought up that Buddha didnt charge and neither did Jesus. From my understanding John Chang hasnt ever charged either. As far as turning people down, you should never turn someone down. Was your wife too lazy to do preventative maintanence?

I'd slap you if I were bling owl

 

John Chang is a multimillionaire so he doesn't need the money.

 

As far as Jesus and Buddha goes, who knows what benefactors they may have had.

 

And from the Peaceful Warrior:

Mahatma Gandhi, nonviolent leader and political activist, advised all of us to live simply, so that others may simply live. Gandhi did indeed live according to these high ideals; wearing a loincloth or other simple garb and spinning his own cotton, he took only what he needed, and he gave whatever he could. But Gandhi had help from others. Said one Indian industrialist who donated millions of dollars to Gandhi's cause, "It cost me a fortune to keep Gandhi simple."

 

Free is easy if someone else is doling out the cash.

 

I have no problem exchanging value for value.

 

uriah's right. John has never charged a cent for either teaching or healing. Even before he got into the business of making a shit load of money, he healed free of charge. It's the mo pai way. Free.

[Duifang]

... Way too complicated.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

And morality is context sensitive.

 

Way too complicated....

[Ya Mu]

Considering the cost to get a true education in Medical Qigong, is there any wonder why teachers have to charge enough to make a living (full time teachers)? So is this a catch 22 situation where if only teachers started teaching it for free then their students could also teach it for free? But wait, what about travel costs and other costs like missed work while traveling to China? Who exactly pays for that?

I think the Taoist middle path teaches us that reasonable fees are OK, whereas exorbitant fees are charged by the greedy.

If we are wealthy then would it be OK to teach for free? I'll say yes and no. Consider this: If something is free it does not have as much value to the "purchaser" as a reasonable fee charged for the "product". I have found that the students I have taught for free did not keep up their practice because "How could this be valuable if it was given to me free?". A certain percentage of those charged a reasonable fee continue their practice.

So today I will continue to charge a fee. I might change my mind tomorrow. Or not.

[Spectrum]

Make em pay w/ sweat and blood.

[Baguakid]

yep, some of the best stuff I've learned over the last 20 years was either free or little cost.

 

And,

 

I still practice the best stuff to this day.

 

But, again. I've always taken care of my teachers with gifts or extra cash.

[Scio]

Buddha didnt charge, Jesus Christ didnt charge, John Chang doesnt charge. It's an issue of of individual morality obviously. Strike me up one for not charging. Those are the badasses I was speaking of.

 

A sign that the ego is crafty? Not charging anything doesnt mean youre faux humbled either lol. Have you ever volunteered for anything ever? Did you think it was a waste of time or did you get some sort of satisfaction because you did a good deed? Have you ever donated to charity? How about anonomously? How about when you do something like any of the above you dont brag about it but keep it to yourself?

 

 

How do you know that John Chang doesn't charge?

[h.uriahr]

How do you know that John Chang doesn't charge?

 

The same way I know my mother makes great cookies.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Vajrasattva]

You read it on the internet?

 

 

Hahaha

[h.uriahr]

You read it on the internet?

 

That's so incredibly ridiculously funny that I shit myself. Literally all over the place. I was wondering what happened to the "Master" himself Mr. First Name Only Mike.

 

You read it on the internet?

 

right back atcha kiddo