traditional teachers versus modern teachers

[sirius]

there are western chi kung/taiji/inner martial arts teachers who adopted the "traditional" chinese way of teaching. that means they demonstrate the exercises, they correct you, but they don`t tell you much about the background of these exercises. of course western adepts of the inner martial arts often tend to ask many - and often silly - questions. especially when they get in contact with these systems for the first time. often these "traditional" teachers don`t really like to be asked "silly" questions. they think that a regular training which enables you to progress and develop your personality will give all the answers to the questions that might arouse. and very often these teachers follow just one sifu and they are not interested in getting in contact with other teachers/with other exercises and with other methods of teaching.

 

as a typical westerner who is used to use his brain, who is used to ask "critical" and "silly" questions and who thinks that he is quite open-minded i have a real problem to accept this traditional way of teaching.

 

why do so many western teachers "copy" this traditional style of teaching?

why do they react in strange ways if you ask them "normal" questions like: who were your teachers? what style did you learn/do you teach? how long do you practise? since what time do you teach? can you give some information about the effect of the exercises? why do you teach just this one style?

 

i would like to hear from you tao bums what you think about these questions. what are your experiences with teachers? maybe some of the forum members who are teachers can comment on these "silly" questions.

[h.uriahr]

there are western chi kung/taiji/inner martial arts teachers who adopted the "traditional" chinese way of teaching. that means they demonstrate the exercises, they correct you, but they don`t tell you much about the background of these exercises. of course western adepts of the inner martial arts often tend to ask many - and often silly - questions. especially when they get in contact with these systems for the first time. often these "traditional" teachers don`t really like to be asked "silly" questions. they think that a regular training which enables you to progress and develop your personality will give all the answers to the questions that might arouse. and very often these teachers follow just one sifu and they are not interested in getting in contact with other teachers/with other exercises and with other methods of teaching.

 

as a typical westerner who is used to use his brain, who is used to ask "critical" and "silly" questions and who thinks that he is quite open-minded i have a real problem to accept this traditional way of teaching.

 

why do so many western teachers "copy" this traditional style of teaching?

why do they react in strange ways if you ask them "normal" questions like: who were your teachers? what style did you learn/do you teach? how long do you practise? since what time do you teach? can you give some information about the effect of the exercises? why do you teach just this one style?

 

i would like to hear from you tao bums what you think about these questions. what are your experiences with teachers? maybe some of the forum members who are teachers can comment on these "silly" questions.

It's not that you should rid yourself of the critical and silly questions but you should rid yourself of the critical and silly questions. It's better to do the exercises as instructed and if he or she is a good teacher then they will answer any question you might have as you progress. You dont want information overload. It will confuse you more, maybe not. Often times they teach the style they teach because of the same reason you are learning that style, it was the only one they could find or it was a recommendation, etc. The time limit on practising is that there is none. Do it for aslong as you find enjoyable. 20 minutes to hours if you like.

[Taiji Bum]

Lineage is easy to explain if you have one. Me- John Wang- Chen Man Ching- Yang Chen fu- Ect. My sisters ex-teacher claimed secret teachers at the Shaolin Monastery and just got outed as a fraud. Beware those who cant and wont tell you their lineage. But of course beware of those who can too because lineage really doesn't equal ability or the ability to teach either.

[steve]

who were your teachers? what style did you learn/do you teach? how long do you practise? since what time do you teach? can you give some information about the effect of the exercises? why do you teach just this one style?

Great topic!

As usual, here's a long winded response...

 

I think these are all reasonable questions that merit factual answers.

Once the teacher answers those questions, then what? That is the real question.

 

Do more questions follow?

 

Does one question every detail of every movement, looking for explanations and answers from the teacher or does one practice what is shown 1,000 times and find answers within the practice?

 

Answers are dead, they end the question, the search, the exploration. When someone gives you their answer, it is valid for them. It may or may not be the same for you. Also, when someone satisfies your intellectual inquiry, you know the answer as a thought, as a representation of the reality. That is never the same as having the experience of the reality.

 

The question however is very alive. Living with the question encourages us to search, to experiment, and perhaps to find a solution. The failures during that search are every bit as, or more important than, the ultimate answer.

 

Our thoughts tell us that we know something when we understand it intellectually - that is, we are able to relate it to something we already know or have experienced. This is often misleading, especially in experiential matters like internal martial arts, qigong, and meditation. If we relate the knew to the old, we really haven't learned anything new, we've just categorized it.

 

I think that the traditional method is very valuable in internal martial arts, qigong, and meditation training. If you find the answers yourself, they stay with you. The answer resides in your bones, not just in your mind.

I recently watched a video of a Xingyi master. It was a great presentation. As I watched it, I realized that I had come to understand all of the fine details that he was describing and explaining. The interesting thing is that my teacher never explained any of those details to me. He demonstrated the movements and talked a bit about the mindset and basic principles. He answered any questions I had, but I never asked that many because I trusted his method. Years later, the details have expressed themselves through my practice and are a part of me and are all very similar to this master who teaches a different style of Xingyi! I don't know that it would be the same with a different teaching method, I also don't know that it wouldn't.

 

When we learn through question and answer, once our intellectual curiosity is satisfied, we believe that we know what we are doing. This is not the case with experiential matters. I've seen many people come to the martial arts and meditation with the questioning mind and once their questions are answered, without learning through gong fu (work over time), they think they know it and leave because they are bored and want something new. That is the nature of mind.

 

Just thoughts and answers that work for me...

You've got to figure out what works for you!

Good luck.

[Stigweard]

i would like to hear from you tao bums what you think about these questions. what are your experiences with teachers? maybe some of the forum members who are teachers can comment on these "silly" questions.

 

When you learn say something like music, unless in exceptionally rare occasions, it would be virtually impossible to launch into your own classical compositons (LOL I say this whilst enjoying the splendid tenor of Pavarotti). You have to learn all the basic scales and theory first, and then you have to study and practice the works of the Masters sometimes for years. Only after such an apprenticeship can your own inspirations and creativity arise and take form in a functional way.

 

However (what a lovely word is it not?)

 

Tao is a living phenomena, it grows and evolves out of the structure and foundation of the past. The problem some traditionalists have is that they are so adhered to their norms that some find it impossible to contemplate new developments. They say, "This is how my teacher did it so this is how I do it." Now going back to what I said above, within the realms of appropriateness, this can be beneficial in order to maintain the 'sea-worthiness' of the tradition and the teachings. It is when it is clung to with rigidity and narrow-mindedness that it becomes prohibitive to growth.

 

And the problem with creative experimentors of course is that, if not grounded in the traditions that they are working within, they can easily become lost in a flight of fantasy and launch campaigns of 'this is the great new thing' and will cling to such delusions even in the face of well established antithetical proof.

 

But in saying this it is the nature of life for every living organism to have their scouts who journey off into uncharted vistas to either bring back the 'gold of new worlds' or simply to inform us that, "Nope, there ain't nothing there!"

 

So we need our traditionalists to maintain the structure and integrity of the vehicle of the teachings, and we also need our scouts and experimentors to provide genetic growth for these teachings.

 

The other variation of this is less palatable. It is when people will emulate the pharmaceutical companies and dissect a wholesome tradition looking to identify the one or two practices that are deemed the 'active components', repackage them, patent them, and declare to the world that they have discovered 'a great new thing.' But I guess it is natural in the process of genetic evolution to have mutated strains along the way

 

Answers are dead, they end the question, the search, the exploration. When someone gives you their answer, it is valid for them. It may or may not be the same for you. Also, when someone satisfies your intellectual inquiry, you know the answer as a thought, as a representation of the reality. That is never the same as having the experience of the reality.

 

The question however is very alive. Living with the question encourages us to search, to experiment, and perhaps to find a solution. The failures during that search are every bit as, or more important than, the ultimate answer.

 

I do like the way you say this

[Pranaman]

my teacher teaches what seems traditionally, but i feel like has tailored it to be his own.

he says that the reason he does not hold back any secrets or methods from us, is that he wants the art to live on.

I believe that realizing answers through self experience, makes it more your own. Once it's your own, you are free to make your own art.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Pranaman

[Spectrum]

All good points.

[三江源]

My first Sifu never told me anything about anything, really. I'm not sure he knew, himself, on a 'head' level. He didnt know the theories.But he had the knowledge.

 

I left him to go find a teacher who could explain to me, who wouldnt be so authoritarian.

 

Now years later, I realise my first Sifu had it all. He had more than everyone else.

 

And none of it was in his head, or communicable to my thinking function.

 

If I had only had my articulate westernised teachers, I would be way behind in my development.

 

I see now, that people who like the sound of their own voices, who want to answer questions and be asked and praised for thier answers, are ten a penny.

 

The real juice is harder to find.

 

Knowledge and answers come from somewhere that has nothing to do with verbiage.

[林愛偉]

My first Sifu never told me anything about anything, really. I'm not sure he knew, himself, on a 'head' level. He didnt know the theories.But he had the knowledge.

 

I left him to go find a teacher who could explain to me, who wouldnt be so authoritarian.

 

Now years later, I realise my first Sifu had it all. He had more than everyone else.

 

And none of it was in his head, or communicable to my thinking function.

 

If I had only had my articulate westernised teachers, I would be way behind in my development.

 

I see now, that people who like the sound of their own voices, who want to answer questions and be asked and praised for thier answers, are ten a penny.

 

The real juice is harder to find.

 

Knowledge and answers come from somewhere that has nothing to do with verbiage.

 

I like this method:

 

Student, do this and this. Got it?

 

But teacher, how do I use it..

 

(Slaaaap to the back of the head)

 

Got it now?

 

Yeah, thanks.

 

 

HAHAHAHA

[三江源]

 

I like this method:

 

Student, do this and this. Got it?

 

But teacher, how do I use it..

 

(Slaaaap to the back of the head)

 

Got it now?

 

Yeah, thanks.

 

 

HAHAHAHA

 

 

Perfect.

[steve]

My first Sifu never told me anything about anything, really. I'm not sure he knew, himself, on a 'head' level. He didnt know the theories.But he had the knowledge.

 

I left him to go find a teacher who could explain to me, who wouldnt be so authoritarian.

 

Now years later, I realise my first Sifu had it all. He had more than everyone else.

 

And none of it was in his head, or communicable to my thinking function.

 

If I had only had my articulate westernised teachers, I would be way behind in my development.

 

I see now, that people who like the sound of their own voices, who want to answer questions and be asked and praised for thier answers, are ten a penny.

 

The real juice is harder to find.

 

Knowledge and answers come from somewhere that has nothing to do with verbiage.

 

Very nicely put, cat.

 

 

I like this method:

 

Student, do this and this. Got it?

 

But teacher, how do I use it..

 

(Slaaaap to the back of the head)

 

Got it now?

 

Yeah, thanks.

HAHAHAHA

 

Great image!

[Starjumper]

These last posts are great! Here's another way to look at it. Some aspects of chi kung are so holistic that one technique or set of techniques does many many things on many different levels. For example in my system one movement will frequently work on physical stretching and strengthening, opening the meridians, posture work (due to slowness of movement) and using the hands as energy tools (sometimes called massaging the aura) ... and of course it's all meditation all the time.

 

Now if someone tried to cover all the bases of the one technique they could write a book about it, but they don't, do they? They'll normally tell you about one piece of it, maybe two. This creates expectations in the student and the student then focuses on only this one aspect. It closes them to more discovery and effectively shuts the door on broader development. It creates a student who expects to be spoon fed instead of making it a path of wonderous self discovery. There is so much to discover and there is so much depth. You don't create masters by spoon feeding students, you create puppets. So the verbose 'modern' teachers are robbing their students of most of the benefits.

 

On the other hand some teachers can describe some details of posture of a movement and they aren't breaking that rule ... too much. It can shut the door to discovery of variations, which is part of the path to formless. My teacher didn't do that either. There was NO talking during exercise, EVER. If the student wasn't observant they simply missed the boat and the boat then sailed away without them. My teacher only had a few students, and he was a true grand master. And what does a master do? He creates masterpieces. Sometimes though he would get in a student's face and exagerate part of a posture which the student was oblivious to but he hardly ever did that, the boat simply sailed away.

 

After class though, we would sometimes sit around for hours and talk about all kinds of things. Energy discussions, experiments with energy, healing techniques, ghost stories, and he would answer any and all questions - no secrets. We normally knew better than to ask questions like "what does this movement do?"

[Starjumper]

Also, there were many martial techniques buried within the system, so much so that I had a student who was advanced in kung fu tell me he was shocked I was offering this stuff to the public. At the time I didn't even know what he was talking about even though I was teaching it. This shows another aspect of how effective a traditional way of teaching is.

 

By 'technique' I mean techniques of cultivating martial power, not applications.

[sirius]

thank you to all of you tao bums who tried to answer my "silly" questions. i want to thank especially xuesheng, stigweard and starjumper for your long, detailed and inspired responses. you all gave me a lot of stuff to think of. - i think i will reread your posts tomorrow.

 

somehow i will find my own way...

 

blessed be!

 

sirius

[wudangspirit]

That's the method I learn by. hahahah. Very nice

 

I like this method:

 

Student, do this and this. Got it?

 

But teacher, how do I use it..

 

(Slaaaap to the back of the head)

 

Got it now?

 

Yeah, thanks.

HAHAHAHA

[steve]

somehow i will find my own way...

You have no choice, my friend.

Enjoy!