mjjbecker

Western and Chinese Gong Training

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I could not move him. It was just like trying to push a large tree over. Nothing, not the slightest give. What the ****! Only moments before I had watched one of my fellow students win his pushing hands match. Now I was giving it my all and nothing was happening. It didn't make sense. I had come into the class and surprised several national pushing hands champions. I'd pretty much beaten everyone. I had to give up here. My teacher had made his point.

 

I was 19 and in pretty good shape, but this wasn't any battle of strength or stamina. I had made my first encounter with neigong, or internal training. My next lesson would be a zero inch strike which jolted me like the feeling you get in a car crash.

 

There was no talk of qi, or anything mysterious. Such ability came from the correct training of a set of exercises, the 24 yin and yang neigong exercises. Once learned and practised for 100 days, a person could take someone jumping onto their stomach from 6 feet off the ground. The 24 exercise yin and yang neigong set is a part of traditional Wu taijiquan's training, though in the past not often taught even to inside the door students. Now it is taught and acknowledged by the mainline Wu family branch under Eddie Wu.

 

In a private conversation my teacher once told me how a Hsing I expert had refused to hit him as his 'qi' would kill my teacher. My teacher said do it anyway. The Hsing I man did-and was amazed when nothing happened. He hit my teacher all over the torso, to no effect.

 

Surely amazing internal strength! I was later to learn however that several Western strongmen had displayed similar feats of strength, from having people jump onto their stomachs to hanging by the neck from a hangman's noose!

 

And then I read about Ueshiba sensei, or O'sensei as he has been titled. Many curious stories have been told about his abilities, but most relevant here is his encounter with a karate student. Keen to test Ueshiba, this student was allowed to strike Ueshiba in the torso. Now, we are NOT talking about the young Ueshiba who worked in the lumber fields, but the old, skinny, saintly looking one.

 

Well, the karate student hit Ueshiba, and to his amazement had no effect whatsoever. So he did it again. Unfortunately he got angry and wouldn't believe this was happening. So Ueshiba invited him to punch again, this time projecting the energy back and the student broke his wrist.

 

Amazing! Ki power!

 

Hmm

 

So, onto an anecdote by Ellis Amdur. Near the end of his life, the great Wang Shujin was dying of cancer, and severely weakened by his illness. His walk was shuffling and his breathing laboured. According to Marnix Wells, Wang was also suffering from diabetes. So, he was close to death when Mr Amdur met him. That did not stop Wang from being able to knock flying a high level karate man with his infamous belly strike.

 

Qi? Maybe, but it hadn't stopped his health deteriorating. It is possible that Wang's demonstrations involving people striking his legs had ultimately led to his cancer of the ankle.

 

London. Me. Here I am at a Systema seminar. I don't really want to go along, but what the hell, its an excuse to visit London and see some friends. One of my friends has trained for some time in this method and is quite well known by the Russians present. Introductions are made, including one gentleman who reputed used to work for the Russian secret service. I don't know about that, but he surely was a formidable individual. I took one of his zero inch 'taps' and it certainly got my attention. It went right through me, and not in a pleasant way. Not like any of your 'normal' strikes.

 

Anyone who has participated in a Systema class or seminar and who has felt their strikes would certainly be a 'believer'. They come from all directions, with no 'wind-up', and they work. They can hit to knock out, incapacitate or resuscitate. Hmm. Just like those stories of old Asian martial arts masters.

 

Just to clarify, non of this feels like the famous 1-3 inch punch of Wing Chun fame, whereby force is generated by torquing the wrist and using the shoulder and lats.

 

Shotokai karate is famous for its 'soft' no tension punch. They say being hit by one of these punches takes everything out of you and makes you want to curl up and die. Not dissimilar to the Systema strikes.

 

Interestingly, while the Russians had power, the other people at the seminar, including people who had done Systema for several years, well, they didn't look too impressive. The impression I got was the Russians had something and they weren't passing it on.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of not passing this knowledge along has been prevalent over the years. So, the mystery of qi, its existence, or not, has been argued over instead.

 

Before I move on, let me recap. Schools, both eastern and western, have had within them special conditioning exercises. These have allowed people to develop refined body movement and strength. This refined movement and strength can, and has been applied by experts even when weak with serious illness though. So, it is not simply strength in the body building or callisthenic model. If it was purely muscular strength, then how would an elderly Ueshiba and a dying Wang be able to do what they could?

 

So it must be qi then? Nope. Refined body skill and awareness. How can I say this? Well, two accounts of what qi actually does do to a person when used in a martial sense.

 

The first one came from Glenn Morris, in one of his books relating to martial arts and qigong. I can't remember which one as I no longer have the books to hand. Dr Morris recounted a story whereby some 'boob', decided to test a local kung fu masters skill by jumping him at the bus stop. The master swatted the boob for his trouble and they went on their way.

 

That however was not the end of it. A short time after the boob ended up in hospital, his bodies vitals shutting down and the doctors at a loss to explain-or help. Fortunately for him, the master he had attacked got wind of his situation, came by the hospital and healed him.

 

The second one comes from my time within the Mo Pai. It is one of several related stories. While grappling with one of his students, Kostas accidentally released some qi into his student. Again, the said student ended up in hospital, again with the doctors unable to explain or help. Kostas contacted John Chang and I understand it was with the intervention of John Chang's teachers spirit the student was cured.

 

I know of other related incidents but I am not going to relay them, (please do not PM or email asking about them).

 

So I am of the opinion that qi, and refined body mechanics are quite separate creatures, based on personal experience as well and information gained. Some masters may combine the two, some may be able to switch between the two, but they are NOT one and the same.

 

A major change to physical training came about with Joe Weider's popularisation of separating muscle groups for training. It seemed to revolutionise sport, and the late Donn Draeger was certainly an enthusiastic proponent. Draegers advice and training helped Anton Geesink astound the Judo world when he won the Olympic title in 1964. Weight training clearly had some benefit where martial sport training was concerned.

 

Cue another Ellis Amdur anecdote, this time relayed to him by Donn Draeger.

 

By all accounts Draeger was a phenomenal athlete and martial artist, a fantastic combination of physical ability and talent. While Wang Shujin was living in Japan, Draeger took Ba Gua lessons from him. Wang had Draeger circle walk around a tree for several years, as per tradition, (apparently, I've never done Ba Gua). Sometimes Wang would decide to play a game of tag while Draeger was doing this, 'giant chased by leviathan' as Mr Amdur put it, 'with the giant always being caught'. Picture it. A large Caucasian athletic male being chased around a tree by a fat old Chinese man in his 60's, the athlete losing every time.

 

On one occasion Wang commented to Draeger that his problem was he lacked control of his body, ( :o some might say an astounding comment given Draeger's achievements). Wang proceeded to demonstrate what he meant.

 

And one day, Wang visited Donn at his small home, and in the conversation, said to him, "Your trouble is you have insufficient control of your body," reached over and picked up a meteorite, the size of a shotput that Donn used for a paperweight. He took a pose on one leg, extended his arm straight out and held the meteorite, palm DOWN, for ten minutes, immobile, then shifted to his mirror image and did it again for another ten.

 

Ellis Amdur

 

Again, we have a fat 60 odd year old man, astounding an athlete who trained using modern western weight lifting.

 

Now, Wang's comments really ARE the crux of the matter:

 

"...control of your body..."

 

Not qi, not even physical strength in the usual muscular manner we associate with strength. Body control.

 

Now, what really helped me to crystallize my thoughts on the whole matter was Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. Mr Harden trains in a form of Aikijujutsu and has learned, for want of a better word, the applicable gong training.

 

As he commented, to howls of outrage by some 'traditionalists', the correct solo training of the body is the difference between getting the remarkable abilities of the top Aiki masters, or not. Not only that, but that this training has been a core part of martial arts from other countries, notably the internal arts of China.

 

Nothing mystical, not qi, but the correct training of the body. Physical exercises that develop a refined body awareness.

 

Now Mr Harden is on record as saying he is happy to teach the exercises to sincere people, not for monetary gain either. He has invited people as guests to visit him and several have and have posted their experiences on E-budo. Some of them were fervent doubters, but converted by the results of the training.

 

Not only does Mr Harden train people, but he has mentioned other people and groups who are willing to do the same.

 

In conclusion, much of the abilities displayed by famous internal arts and Aiki masters were gained from practising a series of solo training exercises that developed a refined level of body awareness. This explains why some masters could display seemingly amazing feats, even when seriously ill in their old ages.

 

Such abilities are not about qi powers, though qi can and is developed by some of these training methods. Qi is different, and very few people seem to develop that to the level whereby they can apply it in combat.

 

Sorry about the length of this post/article. It is the summation of nearly two decades of though on the subject. I hope it will be of benefit to some of you.

 

Nope, I'm not stopping there ;)

 

Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. This is gold! Read and treasure! The thread references several teachers and methods for this kind of training if you are interested in following it up.

 

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38747

 

For those interested I have again uploaded Farmer Burns training course. The copyright is long expired on this, though if you have money to burn you can buy it for $35 from Matt Furey...

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/149705077/Less..._Burns.pdf.html

 

I haven't seen any books or videos that I thought were helpful with this kind of training. Most of the usual advice is vague and unhelpful.

 

My own tips:

 

If you practice exercises from a traditional school of combat, such as the standing practice of various schools, repetitive drilling exercises, etc. you need to be spending hours, not minutes doing them. Half an hour a day is nice, but it won't develop the kind of awareness of your body that old masters had. Hours, not minutes.

 

You need to have your mind on your body while you practice. From the soles of your feet to your finger tips. What is happening? What can you feel? Where is your balance? This is very important. This training is not just about developing strength, but very much awareness of your body.

 

Interestingly enough, if you think carefully about your balance and your dantien, it will do wonders not only for your body awareness, but also take your mind of the pain in your legs.

 

Remember, the soles of your feet, to your finger tips, via your dantien.

 

Now, bearing the above in mind, have a look at this body training clip from Tong Bei, (I'm sure I first saw this referenced on that E-budo thread):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ua4VICAsGc

 

What is seen is not important. What he is AWARE of and FEELING INSIDE is. Bear that in mind.

 

From Tong Bei to Tong Long to Hung Gar to Hsing I, they all have their body training. What the student needs to be most aware of is what is happening inside of THEIR bodies, not simply the outer form.

 

Anyway, that is enough from me for now. I am on holiday, as it is a national holiday here. So, I am planning to go out and enjoy some sunshine and fresh air for the next couple of days rather than sit in front of my computer. Until then, have fun, (don't blush Cat ;).

 

Best,

 

Mike

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Hi Mike

 

Appreciate hearing your thoughts. I have to agree with your points based on my experiences so far.

 

In this way i have come to think of 'internal' martial arts and 'esoteric' martial arts, sometimes as you say they are mixed, other times they are separate. The confusing thing is the same if not similar terms will always be used to describe different phenomena.

 

Most i have met appear to be more a master of one or the other rather than both, which is why someone adept at both stands out so much and is treasured.

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A pleasure to read, thank you, Mike.

 

It's not that they're not passing it on, it's just that what is being passed on is misunderstood, and things misunderstood can't be "learned into coming alive" no matter how long and how persistently one studies them.

 

Take qi, for instance. How many times will you hear debates about qi "existing" or "not existing" based on the assumption that "qi is energy," a kind of "subtle energy" that either "is" or "isn't" there. People will come to training assuming they are, or aren't, going to develop this "special kind of energy" depending on whether they "believe in it" or "don't believe in it," and both categories will be off and will miss what it is that they are actually learning, qi-wise. It's a bit like learning to, let's say, write in Chinese as an art form, without simultaneously learning the meaning of the ideographs you're copying and without this meaning having any relevance for you personally. Will there be "energy" in your calligraphy executed from this place? That's quite possible. A little, a lot, any kind of energy you like. Will there be "qi" in it if it's done this way? No. If, however, you draw the ideographs for "I love you" while knowing they mean you, the beloved, and the love, and do it while being in love, and feeling this love, and being aware of it in your mind, heart, body, memory, hopes and dreams, and being trained to direct this awareness into your hand and the brush it holds and onto the paper, and write it from that place, will it have qi? Yes. Oodles of qi! It's no coincidence that calligraphy was taught as part of traditional MA (sic) training. It's not the only and not necessarily the best route, of course, you can use any medium to get someone to grasp what qi is -- but it has to be grasped via a practice that is meaningful on many levels to the practitioner, or it will be forever mechanical -- it might have energy, but it will never have qi.

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Thank you all.

 

I'm only back so soon because I drank some Coke too close to bedtime...silly me.

 

Do read through the E-budo thread though. It is very, very interesting. The best discussion I have ever seen on this topic and very insightful.

 

Snowmonki,

 

Absolutely. I've come to wonder if the progress of some stops short purely because they just did not inherently have the ability, or if something was left out of the training. Maybe a bit of both. Inherent ability is very, very important, though it does not go down well with the ego.

 

For example, I have read accounts of masters of Taijiquan and Hsing I who showed abilities akin to John Chang. Alex Kozma, in his book, Esoteric Warriors, writes of a Hsing I master he met who emitted qi that felt like electricity, and who Kozma simply 'bounced' off when he tried to hit him. Kozma also writes of one of his teachers in Taiwan who accidentally hit him with some qi, making Kozma quite ill.

 

I've only seen it mentioned in one place, but there was a story claiming that people who hit Yang Luchan would later die, even though he had not hit them back. Shades of yang qi there.

 

Taomeow,

 

Intent. Yes, very important. How much qi can you project with intent though? That, I think depends on aptitude and training.

 

Some people can do it very easily, even with a little or no training. Some require training to 'gather' their qi and focus their mind. Some to little or no effect, regardless of training.

 

I think you are likely of the first group. Age of the physical body isn't the issue. Age of the spirit, now that is another thing altogether.

 

Best,

 

Mike

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I could not move him. It was just like trying to push a large tree over. Nothing, not the slightest give. What the ****! Only moments before I had watched one of my fellow students win his pushing hands match. Now I was giving it my all and nothing was happening. It didn't make sense. I had come into the class and surprised several national pushing hands champions. I'd pretty much beaten everyone. I had to give up here. My teacher had made his point.

 

I was 19 and in pretty good shape, but this wasn't any battle of strength or stamina. I had made my first encounter with neigong, or internal training. My next lesson would be a zero inch strike which jolted me like the feeling you get in a car crash.

 

There was no talk of qi, or anything mysterious. Such ability came from the correct training of a set of exercises, the 24 yin and yang neigong exercises. Once learned and practised for 100 days, a person could take someone jumping onto their stomach from 6 feet off the ground. The 24 exercise yin and yang neigong set is a part of traditional Wu taijiquan's training, though in the past not often taught even to inside the door students. Now it is taught and acknowledged by the mainline Wu family branch under Eddie Wu.

 

In a private conversation my teacher once told me how a Hsing I expert had refused to hit him as his 'qi' would kill my teacher. My teacher said do it anyway. The Hsing I man did-and was amazed when nothing happened. He hit my teacher all over the torso, to no effect.

 

Surely amazing internal strength! I was later to learn however that several Western strongmen had displayed similar feats of strength, from having people jump onto their stomachs to hanging by the neck from a hangman's noose!

 

And then I read about Ueshiba sensei, or O'sensei as he has been titled. Many curious stories have been told about his abilities, but most relevant here is his encounter with a karate student. Keen to test Ueshiba, this student was allowed to strike Ueshiba in the torso. Now, we are NOT talking about the young Ueshiba who worked in the lumber fields, but the old, skinny, saintly looking one.

 

Well, the karate student hit Ueshiba, and to his amazement had no effect whatsoever. So he did it again. Unfortunately he got angry and wouldn't believe this was happening. So Ueshiba invited him to punch again, this time projecting the energy back and the student broke his wrist.

 

Amazing! Ki power!

 

Hmm

 

So, onto an anecdote by Ellis Amdur. Near the end of his life, the great Wang Shujin was dying of cancer, and severely weakened by his illness. His walk was shuffling and his breathing laboured. According to Marnix Wells, Wang was also suffering from diabetes. So, he was close to death when Mr Amdur met him. That did not stop Wang from being able to knock flying a high level karate man with his infamous belly strike.

 

Qi? Maybe, but it hadn't stopped his health deteriorating. It is possible that Wang's demonstrations involving people striking his legs had ultimately led to his cancer of the ankle.

 

London. Me. Here I am at a Systema seminar. I don't really want to go along, but what the hell, its an excuse to visit London and see some friends. One of my friends has trained for some time in this method and is quite well known by the Russians present. Introductions are made, including one gentleman who reputed used to work for the Russian secret service. I don't know about that, but he surely was a formidable individual. I took one of his zero inch 'taps' and it certainly got my attention. It went right through me, and not in a pleasant way. Not like any of your 'normal' strikes.

 

Anyone who has participated in a Systema class or seminar and who has felt their strikes would certainly be a 'believer'. They come from all directions, with no 'wind-up', and they work. They can hit to knock out, incapacitate or resuscitate. Hmm. Just like those stories of old Asian martial arts masters.

 

Just to clarify, non of this feels like the famous 1-3 inch punch of Wing Chun fame, whereby force is generated by torquing the wrist and using the shoulder and lats.

 

Shotokai karate is famous for its 'soft' no tension punch. They say being hit by one of these punches takes everything out of you and makes you want to curl up and die. Not dissimilar to the Systema strikes.

 

Interestingly, while the Russians had power, the other people at the seminar, including people who had done Systema for several years, well, they didn't look too impressive. The impression I got was the Russians had something and they weren't passing it on.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of not passing this knowledge along has been prevalent over the years. So, the mystery of qi, its existence, or not, has been argued over instead.

 

Before I move on, let me recap. Schools, both eastern and western, have had within them special conditioning exercises. These have allowed people to develop refined body movement and strength. This refined movement and strength can, and has been applied by experts even when weak with serious illness though. So, it is not simply strength in the body building or callisthenic model. If it was purely muscular strength, then how would an elderly Ueshiba and a dying Wang be able to do what they could?

 

So it must be qi then? Nope. Refined body skill and awareness. How can I say this? Well, two accounts of what qi actually does do to a person when used in a martial sense.

 

The first one came from Glenn Morris, in one of his books relating to martial arts and qigong. I can't remember which one as I no longer have the books to hand. Dr Morris recounted a story whereby some 'boob', decided to test a local kung fu masters skill by jumping him at the bus stop. The master swatted the boob for his trouble and they went on their way.

 

That however was not the end of it. A short time after the boob ended up in hospital, his bodies vitals shutting down and the doctors at a loss to explain-or help. Fortunately for him, the master he had attacked got wind of his situation, came by the hospital and healed him.

 

The second one comes from my time within the Mo Pai. It is one of several related stories. While grappling with one of his students, Kostas accidentally released some qi into his student. Again, the said student ended up in hospital, again with the doctors unable to explain or help. Kostas contacted John Chang and I understand it was with the intervention of John Chang's teachers spirit the student was cured.

 

I know of other related incidents but I am not going to relay them, (please do not PM or email asking about them).

 

So I am of the opinion that qi, and refined body mechanics are quite separate creatures, based on personal experience as well and information gained. Some masters may combine the two, some may be able to switch between the two, but they are NOT one and the same.

 

A major change to physical training came about with Joe Weider's popularisation of separating muscle groups for training. It seemed to revolutionise sport, and the late Donn Draeger was certainly an enthusiastic proponent. Draegers advice and training helped Anton Geesink astound the Judo world when he won the Olympic title in 1964. Weight training clearly had some benefit where martial sport training was concerned.

 

Cue another Ellis Amdur anecdote, this time relayed to him by Donn Draeger.

 

By all accounts Draeger was a phenomenal athlete and martial artist, a fantastic combination of physical ability and talent. While Wang Shujin was living in Japan, Draeger took Ba Gua lessons from him. Wang had Draeger circle walk around a tree for several years, as per tradition, (apparently, I've never done Ba Gua). Sometimes Wang would decide to play a game of tag while Draeger was doing this, 'giant chased by leviathan' as Mr Amdur put it, 'with the giant always being caught'. Picture it. A large Caucasian athletic male being chased around a tree by a fat old Chinese man in his 60's, the athlete losing every time.

 

On one occasion Wang commented to Draeger that his problem was he lacked control of his body, ( :o some might say an astounding comment given Draeger's achievements). Wang proceeded to demonstrate what he meant.

 

And one day, Wang visited Donn at his small home, and in the conversation, said to him, "Your trouble is you have insufficient control of your body," reached over and picked up a meteorite, the size of a shotput that Donn used for a paperweight. He took a pose on one leg, extended his arm straight out and held the meteorite, palm DOWN, for ten minutes, immobile, then shifted to his mirror image and did it again for another ten.

 

Ellis Amdur

 

Again, we have a fat 60 odd year old man, astounding an athlete who trained using modern western weight lifting.

 

Now, Wang's comments really ARE the crux of the matter:

 

"...control of your body..."

 

Not qi, not even physical strength in the usual muscular manner we associate with strength. Body control.

 

Now, what really helped me to crystallize my thoughts on the whole matter was Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. Mr Harden trains in a form of Aikijujutsu and has learned, for want of a better word, the applicable gong training.

 

As he commented, to howls of outrage by some 'traditionalists', the correct solo training of the body is the difference between getting the remarkable abilities of the top Aiki masters, or not. Not only that, but that this training has been a core part of martial arts from other countries, notably the internal arts of China.

 

Nothing mystical, not qi, but the correct training of the body. Physical exercises that develop a refined body awareness.

 

Now Mr Harden is on record as saying he is happy to teach the exercises to sincere people, not for monetary gain either. He has invited people as guests to visit him and several have and have posted their experiences on E-budo. Some of them were fervent doubters, but converted by the results of the training.

 

Not only does Mr Harden train people, but he has mentioned other people and groups who are willing to do the same.

 

In conclusion, much of the abilities displayed by famous internal arts and Aiki masters were gained from practising a series of solo training exercises that developed a refined level of body awareness. This explains why some masters could display seemingly amazing feats, even when seriously ill in their old ages.

 

Such abilities are not about qi powers, though qi can and is developed by some of these training methods. Qi is different, and very few people seem to develop that to the level whereby they can apply it in combat.

 

Sorry about the length of this post/article. It is the summation of nearly two decades of though on the subject. I hope it will be of benefit to some of you.

 

Nope, I'm not stopping there ;)

 

Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. This is gold! Read and treasure! The thread references several teachers and methods for this kind of training if you are interested in following it up.

 

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38747

 

For those interested I have again uploaded Farmer Burns training course. The copyright is long expired on this, though if you have money to burn you can buy it for $35 from Matt Furey...

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/149705077/Less..._Burns.pdf.html

 

I haven't seen any books or videos that I thought were helpful with this kind of training. Most of the usual advice is vague and unhelpful.

 

My own tips:

 

If you practice exercises from a traditional school of combat, such as the standing practice of various schools, repetitive drilling exercises, etc. you need to be spending hours, not minutes doing them. Half an hour a day is nice, but it won't develop the kind of awareness of your body that old masters had. Hours, not minutes.

 

You need to have your mind on your body while you practice. From the soles of your feet to your finger tips. What is happening? What can you feel? Where is your balance? This is very important. This training is not just about developing strength, but very much awareness of your body.

 

Interestingly enough, if you think carefully about your balance and your dantien, it will do wonders not only for your body awareness, but also take your mind of the pain in your legs.

 

Remember, the soles of your feet, to your finger tips, via your dantien.

 

Now, bearing the above in mind, have a look at this body training clip from Tong Bei, (I'm sure I first saw this referenced on that E-budo thread):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ua4VICAsGc

 

What is seen is not important. What he is AWARE of and FEELING INSIDE is. Bear that in mind.

 

From Tong Bei to Tong Long to Hung Gar to Hsing I, they all have their body training. What the student needs to be most aware of is what is happening inside of THEIR bodies, not simply the outer form.

 

Anyway, that is enough from me for now. I am on holiday, as it is a national holiday here. So, I am planning to go out and enjoy some sunshine and fresh air for the next couple of days rather than sit in front of my computer. Until then, have fun, (don't blush Cat ;).

 

Best,

 

Mike

Great write-up...but to me, "body control" may be an even more vague concept than qi? :lol:

 

Control, coordination, mind-over-matter...what exactly does he mean by this and how does it allow him to perform prolonged isometrics, etc? And are we sure it doesn't involve qi, but is a completely independent mechanism?

Edited by vortex

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Awesome brother! I have things to ad to this that you will enjoy but right now I have to take wife and kids to mall. Time to practice Wife-jutsu ; )

 

 

You are a gem brother,

 

Santiago

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Intent, yes, that's right -- but what I'm driving at is, when they hear "yi moves qi," "use yi, not qi," they still, more often than not, expect this yi to move "a kind of energy" -- electrical or magnetic or unknown-esoteric 'universal' or what have you. And what I'm saying is, qi is not it.

 

What intent moves is not energy in the sense "energy field" or "energy blast" or suchlike. It reconfigures the pattern of change. At will... Qi is a pattern of change... a "potential for transformation" and "the transformation itself" and the "what's being transformed" all wrapped into one. And much of it has to do with "grokking" time, or what taoist classics refer to as timeliness. And the understanding of timeliness, timing, time is not gained from energy phenomena because time is not contingent on energy -- while energy is contingent on timeliness.

 

Energy is one perceived component of the transformation taking place, but what makes an acorn grow into an oak, its qi, is a timeliness phenomenon. Qi unfolds in an efficient pattern of transformation when energy meets timeliness... Intent can choose the "time and place" for this unfolding... but now I'm getting into the territory that's increasingly difficult to verbalize. What I'm trying to say is, you can cause the acorn to grow into an oak if you provide the time and place for it to do so, but you can't make it grow better by applying any which energy to pulling a young oak tree up by the branches, pushing it, zapping it, and so on. Efficient applications of qi phase in timeliness, and "body awareness" is "time awareness," awareness of the nature, the shape, the flavor of the kind of time it is in at any given nanosecond or any given century. Perceive that -- and you've arrived at a place of unlimited control of qi by yi. Easier said than done of course. But to understand what the "done" is going to be aimed at and what it's not going to be aimed at if it's to be efficient is a start...

Edited by Taomeow
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"Chinese martial arts also involve a particular study of correspondences between mind and conscious intent, between consciousness and energy, and between energy and power, as well as the correspondences of the hands and feet, elbows and knees, shoulders and thighs. Martial arts also involve a particular study of mutual correspondence between the internal and the external. Thus martial arts are very particular about the correspondences of total systems. Correspondence means harmony and coordination." - Mind Over Matter "Higher Martial Arts" by Shi Ming

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"Chinese martial arts also involve a particular study of correspondences between mind and conscious intent, between consciousness and energy, and between energy and power, as well as the correspondences of the hands and feet, elbows and knees, shoulders and thighs. Martial arts also involve a particular study of mutual correspondence between the internal and the external. Thus martial arts are very particular about the correspondences of total systems. Correspondence means harmony and coordination." - Mind Over Matter "Higher Martial Arts" by Shi Ming

Exactly! :) I do so like the word "timeliness" though for this "correspondence (that) means harmony and coordination." The genuine taoist teachings can be discerned by their heavy emphasis on the concept, and the useless ones, by the fact they ignore it and get busy with something entirely else.

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The path of the internal warrior indeed is a humbling experience with many moments where logic does not fit the picture!

 

Mike this was many moons ago but i want to share this with you.... it was roughly 4am i was sick from food poisoning + Psychic attack felt awful. I closed my eyes for a moment and began to breath deep. when i opened my eyes, my Silat Guru was in front of me doing zikr & healing (Guru Haji Pak Muhammad Ariffin Mang Ipin) with in minutes i felt better. Exhaled "Huuuu" as he instructed and most of the pain was gone in an instant. Next day I speak with him on phone and he says you feel better now? Mind you he lives in the UK & I had not told him i was sick! I not ask for him but he came cause i needed help. He told me later someone tried to implant an attack to me and another one of my Silat brothers. We both had the same problem at the same time. And Both had Guru visit and remove the problem at the same time in the AM. Recently he appeared to a student of mine that was in need and explained to him the solutions mind you he does not know my student in the flesh nor speak with them.

 

 

There are times when i train and i begin to hear my Guru's Indonesian voice tell me to shift a move or energy or tighten or let go of a muscle. It's facinating! Then when we speak on phone next day he says something like how is your jurus and silat coming? Better?

 

 

One day many moons back when Dr. Morris was still alive i was driving to go see him in Ft. lauderdale as I drove My car was struck by lightning. I could feel huge surges of energy and intensity. Although i was ok car infront of me (Also someone going to go see Glenn, was struck aswell) their tire blew out.

 

We get back to see Glenn and he looks at me with out knowing what happen gives me his traditional shit eating grin smile and says " You look like you got struck by lightning! Did you like the Chi I sent???"

 

That same night I witnessed him actually Bilocate and be in one room while sleeping in another. and then go to the rest room and look at his bilocation standing in front of me and another person and giggle and then go back to his room to sleep.

 

Still to this day he appears to me, my children, students and to my close friends that knew him.

I would say that Immortality is possible and once not in the flesh there is no limit if you did your homework prior to exiting the body.

 

Oh I forgot...

 

Yesterday I was outside doing my hoshin tao chi kung and I see my other silat Guru from Malaysia in my 3rd eye. I say hello, after i finish chi Kung and Silat breathing i go inside check face book he is there with an IM waiting for me.... He gives me some mystical passages to research in Quran and suggest i apply it to my Silat. So I go outside and meditate on what he gave me, and verytime I chant the zikr LIghtning struck in exact synchronicity following by a "white" lite sky & tremendous amounts of rain. Mind you there was no clouds before. It was as if it came out of nowhere.

 

Energy work and this path ofthe Internal arts always seem to go back to healing & spiritual evolution.

 

Anyhow I wanted to share this with you Mike.

 

Peace & God Bless

Santiago

Edited by Vajrasattva

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You are living a life full of magic, Santiago. :)

 

Thankyou for sharing those stories, I loved reading them, they made me smile and be happy. I fully know what you say is true about immortality.. all of it.

 

The wonder of life!

 

Peace & Love.

cat.

xx

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"Chinese martial arts also involve a particular study of correspondences between mind and conscious intent, between consciousness and energy, and between energy and power, as well as the correspondences of the hands and feet, elbows and knees, shoulders and thighs. Martial arts also involve a particular study of mutual correspondence between the internal and the external. Thus martial arts are very particular about the correspondences of total systems. Correspondence means harmony and coordination." - Mind Over Matter "Higher Martial Arts" by Shi Ming

 

I'd add to it that this book, in its original version, was co-written by Shi Ming and 'our own' Viktor Xiao (of Wang Liping).

 

YM

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very good post, and correct! must as we know most dont want to put in the work. also there is the what to be aware of. need a teacher to tell you that. great post!

metta

Adam

 

I could not move him. It was just like trying to push a large tree over. Nothing, not the slightest give. What the ****! Only moments before I had watched one of my fellow students win his pushing hands match. Now I was giving it my all and nothing was happening. It didn't make sense. I had come into the class and surprised several national pushing hands champions. I'd pretty much beaten everyone. I had to give up here. My teacher had made his point.

 

I was 19 and in pretty good shape, but this wasn't any battle of strength or stamina. I had made my first encounter with neigong, or internal training. My next lesson would be a zero inch strike which jolted me like the feeling you get in a car crash.

 

There was no talk of qi, or anything mysterious. Such ability came from the correct training of a set of exercises, the 24 yin and yang neigong exercises. Once learned and practised for 100 days, a person could take someone jumping onto their stomach from 6 feet off the ground. The 24 exercise yin and yang neigong set is a part of traditional Wu taijiquan's training, though in the past not often taught even to inside the door students. Now it is taught and acknowledged by the mainline Wu family branch under Eddie Wu.

 

In a private conversation my teacher once told me how a Hsing I expert had refused to hit him as his 'qi' would kill my teacher. My teacher said do it anyway. The Hsing I man did-and was amazed when nothing happened. He hit my teacher all over the torso, to no effect.

 

Surely amazing internal strength! I was later to learn however that several Western strongmen had displayed similar feats of strength, from having people jump onto their stomachs to hanging by the neck from a hangman's noose!

 

And then I read about Ueshiba sensei, or O'sensei as he has been titled. Many curious stories have been told about his abilities, but most relevant here is his encounter with a karate student. Keen to test Ueshiba, this student was allowed to strike Ueshiba in the torso. Now, we are NOT talking about the young Ueshiba who worked in the lumber fields, but the old, skinny, saintly looking one.

 

Well, the karate student hit Ueshiba, and to his amazement had no effect whatsoever. So he did it again. Unfortunately he got angry and wouldn't believe this was happening. So Ueshiba invited him to punch again, this time projecting the energy back and the student broke his wrist.

 

Amazing! Ki power!

 

Hmm

 

So, onto an anecdote by Ellis Amdur. Near the end of his life, the great Wang Shujin was dying of cancer, and severely weakened by his illness. His walk was shuffling and his breathing laboured. According to Marnix Wells, Wang was also suffering from diabetes. So, he was close to death when Mr Amdur met him. That did not stop Wang from being able to knock flying a high level karate man with his infamous belly strike.

 

Qi? Maybe, but it hadn't stopped his health deteriorating. It is possible that Wang's demonstrations involving people striking his legs had ultimately led to his cancer of the ankle.

 

London. Me. Here I am at a Systema seminar. I don't really want to go along, but what the hell, its an excuse to visit London and see some friends. One of my friends has trained for some time in this method and is quite well known by the Russians present. Introductions are made, including one gentleman who reputed used to work for the Russian secret service. I don't know about that, but he surely was a formidable individual. I took one of his zero inch 'taps' and it certainly got my attention. It went right through me, and not in a pleasant way. Not like any of your 'normal' strikes.

 

Anyone who has participated in a Systema class or seminar and who has felt their strikes would certainly be a 'believer'. They come from all directions, with no 'wind-up', and they work. They can hit to knock out, incapacitate or resuscitate. Hmm. Just like those stories of old Asian martial arts masters.

 

Just to clarify, non of this feels like the famous 1-3 inch punch of Wing Chun fame, whereby force is generated by torquing the wrist and using the shoulder and lats.

 

Shotokai karate is famous for its 'soft' no tension punch. They say being hit by one of these punches takes everything out of you and makes you want to curl up and die. Not dissimilar to the Systema strikes.

 

Interestingly, while the Russians had power, the other people at the seminar, including people who had done Systema for several years, well, they didn't look too impressive. The impression I got was the Russians had something and they weren't passing it on.

 

Unfortunately the attitude of not passing this knowledge along has been prevalent over the years. So, the mystery of qi, its existence, or not, has been argued over instead.

 

Before I move on, let me recap. Schools, both eastern and western, have had within them special conditioning exercises. These have allowed people to develop refined body movement and strength. This refined movement and strength can, and has been applied by experts even when weak with serious illness though. So, it is not simply strength in the body building or callisthenic model. If it was purely muscular strength, then how would an elderly Ueshiba and a dying Wang be able to do what they could?

 

So it must be qi then? Nope. Refined body skill and awareness. How can I say this? Well, two accounts of what qi actually does do to a person when used in a martial sense.

 

The first one came from Glenn Morris, in one of his books relating to martial arts and qigong. I can't remember which one as I no longer have the books to hand. Dr Morris recounted a story whereby some 'boob', decided to test a local kung fu masters skill by jumping him at the bus stop. The master swatted the boob for his trouble and they went on their way.

 

That however was not the end of it. A short time after the boob ended up in hospital, his bodies vitals shutting down and the doctors at a loss to explain-or help. Fortunately for him, the master he had attacked got wind of his situation, came by the hospital and healed him.

 

The second one comes from my time within the Mo Pai. It is one of several related stories. While grappling with one of his students, Kostas accidentally released some qi into his student. Again, the said student ended up in hospital, again with the doctors unable to explain or help. Kostas contacted John Chang and I understand it was with the intervention of John Chang's teachers spirit the student was cured.

 

I know of other related incidents but I am not going to relay them, (please do not PM or email asking about them).

 

So I am of the opinion that qi, and refined body mechanics are quite separate creatures, based on personal experience as well and information gained. Some masters may combine the two, some may be able to switch between the two, but they are NOT one and the same.

 

A major change to physical training came about with Joe Weider's popularisation of separating muscle groups for training. It seemed to revolutionise sport, and the late Donn Draeger was certainly an enthusiastic proponent. Draegers advice and training helped Anton Geesink astound the Judo world when he won the Olympic title in 1964. Weight training clearly had some benefit where martial sport training was concerned.

 

Cue another Ellis Amdur anecdote, this time relayed to him by Donn Draeger.

 

By all accounts Draeger was a phenomenal athlete and martial artist, a fantastic combination of physical ability and talent. While Wang Shujin was living in Japan, Draeger took Ba Gua lessons from him. Wang had Draeger circle walk around a tree for several years, as per tradition, (apparently, I've never done Ba Gua). Sometimes Wang would decide to play a game of tag while Draeger was doing this, 'giant chased by leviathan' as Mr Amdur put it, 'with the giant always being caught'. Picture it. A large Caucasian athletic male being chased around a tree by a fat old Chinese man in his 60's, the athlete losing every time.

 

On one occasion Wang commented to Draeger that his problem was he lacked control of his body, ( :o some might say an astounding comment given Draeger's achievements). Wang proceeded to demonstrate what he meant.

 

And one day, Wang visited Donn at his small home, and in the conversation, said to him, "Your trouble is you have insufficient control of your body," reached over and picked up a meteorite, the size of a shotput that Donn used for a paperweight. He took a pose on one leg, extended his arm straight out and held the meteorite, palm DOWN, for ten minutes, immobile, then shifted to his mirror image and did it again for another ten.

 

Ellis Amdur

 

Again, we have a fat 60 odd year old man, astounding an athlete who trained using modern western weight lifting.

 

Now, Wang's comments really ARE the crux of the matter:

 

"...control of your body..."

 

Not qi, not even physical strength in the usual muscular manner we associate with strength. Body control.

 

Now, what really helped me to crystallize my thoughts on the whole matter was Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. Mr Harden trains in a form of Aikijujutsu and has learned, for want of a better word, the applicable gong training.

 

As he commented, to howls of outrage by some 'traditionalists', the correct solo training of the body is the difference between getting the remarkable abilities of the top Aiki masters, or not. Not only that, but that this training has been a core part of martial arts from other countries, notably the internal arts of China.

 

Nothing mystical, not qi, but the correct training of the body. Physical exercises that develop a refined body awareness.

 

Now Mr Harden is on record as saying he is happy to teach the exercises to sincere people, not for monetary gain either. He has invited people as guests to visit him and several have and have posted their experiences on E-budo. Some of them were fervent doubters, but converted by the results of the training.

 

Not only does Mr Harden train people, but he has mentioned other people and groups who are willing to do the same.

 

In conclusion, much of the abilities displayed by famous internal arts and Aiki masters were gained from practising a series of solo training exercises that developed a refined level of body awareness. This explains why some masters could display seemingly amazing feats, even when seriously ill in their old ages.

 

Such abilities are not about qi powers, though qi can and is developed by some of these training methods. Qi is different, and very few people seem to develop that to the level whereby they can apply it in combat.

 

Sorry about the length of this post/article. It is the summation of nearly two decades of though on the subject. I hope it will be of benefit to some of you.

 

Nope, I'm not stopping there ;)

 

Dan Harden's comments on E-budo. This is gold! Read and treasure! The thread references several teachers and methods for this kind of training if you are interested in following it up.

 

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38747

 

For those interested I have again uploaded Farmer Burns training course. The copyright is long expired on this, though if you have money to burn you can buy it for $35 from Matt Furey...

 

http://rapidshare.com/files/149705077/Less..._Burns.pdf.html

 

I haven't seen any books or videos that I thought were helpful with this kind of training. Most of the usual advice is vague and unhelpful.

 

My own tips:

 

If you practice exercises from a traditional school of combat, such as the standing practice of various schools, repetitive drilling exercises, etc. you need to be spending hours, not minutes doing them. Half an hour a day is nice, but it won't develop the kind of awareness of your body that old masters had. Hours, not minutes.

 

You need to have your mind on your body while you practice. From the soles of your feet to your finger tips. What is happening? What can you feel? Where is your balance? This is very important. This training is not just about developing strength, but very much awareness of your body.

 

Interestingly enough, if you think carefully about your balance and your dantien, it will do wonders not only for your body awareness, but also take your mind of the pain in your legs.

 

Remember, the soles of your feet, to your finger tips, via your dantien.

 

Now, bearing the above in mind, have a look at this body training clip from Tong Bei, (I'm sure I first saw this referenced on that E-budo thread):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ua4VICAsGc

 

What is seen is not important. What he is AWARE of and FEELING INSIDE is. Bear that in mind.

 

From Tong Bei to Tong Long to Hung Gar to Hsing I, they all have their body training. What the student needs to be most aware of is what is happening inside of THEIR bodies, not simply the outer form.

 

Anyway, that is enough from me for now. I am on holiday, as it is a national holiday here. So, I am planning to go out and enjoy some sunshine and fresh air for the next couple of days rather than sit in front of my computer. Until then, have fun, (don't blush Cat ;).

 

Best,

 

Mike

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You are living a life full of magic, Santiago. :)

 

Thankyou for sharing those stories, I loved reading them, they made me smile and be happy. I fully know what you say is true about immortality.. all of it.

 

The wonder of life!

 

Peace & Love.

cat.

xx

 

:) this smile is for you Cat.

 

and this one is for MIKE. :D

 

Energy sent 2 both of you.

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The path of the internal warrior indeed is a humbling experience with many moments where logic does not fit the picture!

 

Oh yes, very humbling.

 

Mike this was many moons ago but i want to share this with you.... it was roughly 4am i was sick from food poisoning + Psychic attack felt awful. I closed my eyes for a moment and began to breath deep. when i opened my eyes, my Silat Guru was in front of me doing zikr & healing (Guru Haji Pak Muhammad Ariffin Mang Ipin) with in minutes i felt better. Exhaled "Huuuu" as he instructed and most of the pain was gone in an instant. Next day I speak with him on phone and he says you feel better now? Mind you he lives in the UK & I had not told him i was sick! I not ask for him but he came cause i needed help. He told me later someone tried to implant an attack to me and another one of my Silat brothers. We both had the same problem at the same time. And Both had Guru visit and remove the problem at the same time in the AM. Recently he appeared to a student of mine that was in need and explained to him the solutions mind you he does not know my student in the flesh nor speak with them.

There are times when i train and i begin to hear my Guru's Indonesian voice tell me to shift a move or energy or tighten or let go of a muscle. It's facinating! Then when we speak on phone next day he says something like how is your jurus and silat coming? Better?

 

A friend of mine is a student of a Sufi mystic. From some of the things my friend has told me, the Sufi path is second to non.

 

One day many moons back when Dr. Morris was still alive i was driving to go see him in Ft. lauderdale as I drove My car was struck by lightning. I could feel huge surges of energy and intensity. Although i was ok car infront of me (Also someone going to go see Glenn, was struck aswell) their tire blew out.

 

We get back to see Glenn and he looks at me with out knowing what happen gives me his traditional shit eating grin smile and says " You look like you got struck by lightning! Did you like the Chi I sent???"

 

That same night I witnessed him actually Bilocate and be in one room while sleeping in another. and then go to the rest room and look at his bilocation standing in front of me and another person and giggle and then go back to his room to sleep.

 

I read the first three of the good doctors books and enjoyed them immensely.

 

Quid pro quo. I went over to Greece in 2002 when John Chang came to visit. In between meeting with him, myself and a fellow 'seeker', Doctor Mike, were sat in an outside cafe in Athens, not far from the Acropolis. Quite suddenly the mother of all thunder storms comes over us, with torrential rain and purple lightening over the Acropolis. Streams of water ran past our feet. This went on for maybe an hour and then the sunshine returned as if it had never been away.

 

Later than evening I asked Kostas if he and the others had been out in the storm. Yes, he replied, Sifu John had been talking with his teacher on the Acropolis...

 

 

Still to this day he appears to me, my children, students and to my close friends that knew him.

I would say that Immortality is possible and once not in the flesh there is no limit if you did your homework prior to exiting the body.

 

 

That reminds me of another Mo Pai story, but that will have to wait for another time...

 

 

Oh I forgot...

 

Yesterday I was outside doing my hoshin tao chi kung and I see my other silat Guru from Malaysia in my 3rd eye. I say hello, after i finish chi Kung and Silat breathing i go inside check face book he is there with an IM waiting for me.... He gives me some mystical passages to research in Quran and suggest i apply it to my Silat. So I go outside and meditate on what he gave me, and verytime I chant the zikr LIghtning struck in exact synchronicity following by a "white" lite sky & tremendous amounts of rain. Mind you there was no clouds before. It was as if it came out of nowhere.

 

Marvellous.

 

 

Energy work and this path ofthe Internal arts always seem to go back to healing & spiritual evolution.

 

 

YES!

 

 

Anyhow I wanted to share this with you Mike.

 

 

I am blessed by your generosity.

 

 

Peace & God Bless

Santiago

 

 

And you, my brother.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

 

 

Splendid and thank you!

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

You are living a life full of magic, Santiago. :)

 

Thankyou for sharing those stories, I loved reading them, they made me smile and be happy. I fully know what you say is true about immortality.. all of it.

 

The wonder of life!

 

Peace & Love.

cat.

xx

 

Santiago is a wise soul in a young body.

 

He is also a living embodiment of the old saying:

 

'Nice things happen to nice people'.

 

I'm sure you and the other people at the London seminar will have a great time.

 

Best,

 

Mike

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very good post, and correct! must as we know most dont want to put in the work. also there is the what to be aware of. need a teacher to tell you that. great post!

metta

Adam

 

Thank you. Dan Harden in his comments on E-budo echo your sentiments-it is hard work, and not many people want to put the effort in to get the results. Also, a teachers guidance is essential. You need guidance and you need to feel it. Not one for the video courses I'm afraid.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

:) this smile is for you Cat.

 

and this one is for MIKE. :D

 

Energy sent 2 both of you.

:D:D:D:D:D

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A friend of mine is a student of a Sufi mystic. From some of the things my friend has told me, the Sufi path is second to non.

 

Yes its a wonderful path very simple yet VERY powerful.

 

I remember Glenn mentioning to me that the sufi's had real "juice".

 

 

Quid pro quo. I went over to Greece in 2002 when John Chang came to visit. In between meeting with him, myself and a fellow 'seeker', Doctor Mike, were sat in an outside cafe in Athens, not far from the Acropolis. Quite suddenly the mother of all thunder storms comes over us, with torrential rain and purple lightening over the Acropolis. Streams of water ran past our feet. This went on for maybe an hour and then the sunshine returned as if it had never been away.

 

Later than evening I asked Kostas if he and the others had been out in the storm. Yes, he replied, Sifu John had been talking with his teacher on the Acropolis...[/b]

 

That is awesome! I sent a nice cloud your way this morning : )

 

Check the skies from time to time You will know in your heart which one it is. : )..Glenn sent a little juice behind one also : P

 

 

 

Mike

Santiago is a wise soul in a young body.

 

He is also a living embodiment of the old saying:

 

'Nice things happen to nice people'.

 

I'm sure you and the other people at the London seminar will have a great time.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike you are a both Kind & Wise! Yes London should be great once dates can get locked in.

Peace

 

Santiago

 

 

 

 

these are great I will read them soon. Thanks!

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you mentioned the sufi training before, you have to learn arabic to take it up no?

 

 

If you want to learn the Zikr you would need to learn a few arabic names for the creator.

 

Most of what i do is specialized breathing much like gTummo with special prayers and also specific hand motions (Jurus Jurus).

 

A lot of my Tenaga Dalam & Tenaga Batin training is VERY similar to what I do in KAP & to what I learned in trulkhor except there is heavy emphasis in prayer and Zikr. I do not mind that aspect since it really does make one smoother, humbler, peaceful. And the truth is the ultimate power is found in surrendering to the Divine.

 

This order is of a high caliber and very esoteric. Directly connected to the Wali Songo.

 

Naqshabandi.org

 

This site has some great meditations similar to what I do daily as part of my Internal Silat training

 

http://nurmuhammad.com/

 

Peace

 

Santiago

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