Taoism of Western Imagination

[宁]

Oh my Little1, you had to bring up Long Johnson again... I couldn't stop saying it for a year after first hearing it. Oh my dog. Oh Don Piano. Not again.

 

I'd like to change my nick to Don Piano

 

But on topic... there's much insight and information regarding the way the Dao is teached in China and Taiwan, and most of that information, that i've gathered, has strikingly similar ideas.

Most of it tend to be in agreement with what the article that YM posted here.

 

The Western mindset is too self-centered. Way too self-centered. Anything that complies to this self-centeredness is regarded with suspicion by more traditional practicioners.

 

Self-centeredness, Self-indulgence, Over-excitement and Over-stimulation - that are a result of feeding the body and mind with toxics...

 

You cannot take that as a beginning point for practice.

You cannot take that as a foundation for anything.

 

My humble opinion is that most practicioners need serious psychotherapy and medical care practice... before any beginning daoist practice.

There are also systems in the West that begin with this detoxifying of the body and mind, one of which is the one I practice - see the link in my signature. In my experience, this can be a very good prerequisite for any serious study of the Dao, whether you choose a scholar, traditional, or western type of training. In it's initial stages, this is exactly what it does: brings you back to "normal", clean and clear.

 

L1

[Taomeow]

I'd like to change my nick to Don Piano

 

But on topic... there's much insight and information regarding the way the Dao is teached in China and Taiwan, and most of that information, that i've gathered, has strikingly similar ideas.

Most of it tend to be in agreement with what the article that YM posted here.

 

The Western mindset is too self-centered. Way too self-centered. Anything that complies to this self-centeredness is regarded with suspicion by more traditional practicioners.

 

Self-centeredness, Self-indulgence, Over-excitement and Over-stimulation - that are a result of feeding the body and mind with toxics...

 

You cannot take that as a beginning point for practice.

You cannot take that as a foundation for anything.

 

My humble opinion is that most practicioners need serious psychotherapy and medical care practice... before any beginning daoist practice.

There are also systems in the West that begin with this detoxifying of the body and mind, one of which is the one I practice - see the link in my signature. In my experience, this can be a very good prerequisite for any serious study of the Dao, whether you choose a scholar, traditional, or western type of training. In it's initial stages, this is exactly what it does: brings you back to "normal", clean and clear.

 

L1

 

It's not remedied by any kind of detox, Little Don Piano1, it's not something that is brought about by an individual's self-centered slant, it's deeply, deeply cultural. In China, traditionally, everybody 'lived for everybody else," not for themselves, to the extent that one Chinese guy told me you tend to disappear from your own life, you're not significant -- what is significant is your relationships, within your family, the community, the whole society. It's not like that in the West, hasn't been for the longest time, and all the admonitions to 'extinguish the ego' and lose the 'self-centeredness' fall on entirely deaf ears because experientially, Westerners simply don't understand what it means, and it can't be gleaned from books, practices, detoxes, etc.. -- only from having been born into a corresponding lifestyle, a corresponding set of inherent values, and having absorbed them with the mother's milk (not with formula from a bottle, which is the first degree of separation, of the loss of oneness that will never, ever be remedied by any means short of the most miraculous ones in any foreseeable future).

 

I have a few Chinese friends, and invariably, their lifestyles, even in this country, are markedly different from those of non-Chinese people around them. One of them, e.g., lives with his elderly mother and takes care of her, and built his working life around the fact that he has to, abandoning a high-paying tech job for a work-from-home struggling business start-up. It's not that he can't afford home care for his mother or a nursing home, it's just that there's no slant of values in this direction -- it is an inherent value for him to take care of her above and before making money, not vice versa, the way it is for the majority in his current milieu. Another one has a sister-in-law who is a flight attendant in Taiwan often traveling to the US. Whenever she comes, he is stranded because she takes his car for the couple of days she's beached here to go shopping, sightseeing, etc., while leaving her young kid, the guy's nephew, in his uncle's care for the duration of the visit. It strikes me as a peculiar arrangement but does it occur to him that he is being "used," "taken advantage of," etc.? No! Would it, to an American? Yes! I could tell you many similar stories, all of them pointing to the fact that this lack of self-centeredness is not something you can learn -- at least in most cases it isn't -- you have to be born into it, it has to be "you" to begin with, and here, it simply isn't.

 

Now you and I come from a middle ground of Eastern Europe that has a little from column A and a little from column B, and we could theoretically be nudged in either direction. We have a choice. Most people born into extremes of self-centeredness OR self-sacrifice don't, oddly enough...

Edited September 29, 2008 by Taomeow

[宁]

when i read your comment i can marvel at it's intelligence

but when i look around me, it doesn't seem to match the real life

you know why?

because I met people that change from column A to column B and viceversa, both of my people or foreigners

 

in christianity is called Metanoia, and can go both ways

i think you know what i mean

 

it can be done, this is what i saw around me

cultivation fish can jump into consumer fish tank

and consumer fish can jump into cultivation stream

 

L1

[Unconditioned]

when i read your comment i can marvel at it's intelligence

but when i look around me, it doesn't seem to match the real life

you know why?

because I met people that change from column A to column B and viceversa, both of my people or foreigners

 

in christianity is called Metanoia, and can go both ways

i think you know what i mean

 

it can be done, this is what i saw around me

cultivation fish can jump into consumer fish tank

and consumer fish can jump into cultivation stream

 

L1

 

Well said

 

All generalizations are false, including this one!

[Taomeow]

Well said

 

All generalizations are false, including this one!

yet it's "usually" obvious which ones have their place in reality. Not "all" Africans have darker skin than "all" Europeans, but "Africans have darker skins than Europeans" is a valid generalization. Generalizations have a place in reality. In some parts of reality they go by the name "the bigger picture."

[Unconditioned]

yet it's "usually" obvious which ones have their place in reality. Not "all" Africans have darker skin than "all" Europeans, but "Africans have darker skins than Europeans" is a valid generalization. Generalizations have a place in reality. In some parts of reality they go by the name "the bigger picture."

 

To some degree - but to say "Africans have darker skins than Europeans" is not a true statement. South Africa is predominantly white.

 

They have their place but are potentially dangerous and can lead to an assumption that a generalization is truth. To assume that something that is obvious to you is obvious to another is big assumption!

 

The bigger picture is that arguing over generalizations is fruitless and is of no value outside of strengthening the ego.

 

So I'll end my post there before that lil bugger creeps up even more!

 

Edit:

In response to the Western assumption - not everyone is influenced in the same way by culture. Some run towards it to be with the group others run away from it to stand out. Still others march to their own beat for even other reasons.

 

Truth doesn't have a directional bias. It just IS. Nor does it favor / disfavor one culture over another. The illusion of being separate creates division. The reality of Truth creates unity.

 

One thing is for certain: we are alive. There are no assumptions or false interpretations to be made about that. If we start at that point, we can cut through the conditioning, through the ego, through the comparisons.

 

All the best

-Nate

Edited September 29, 2008 by Unconditioned

[metzu]

I'd like to change my nick to Don Piano

 

But on topic... there's much insight and information regarding the way the Dao is teached in China and Taiwan, and most of that information, that i've gathered, has strikingly similar ideas.

Most of it tend to be in agreement with what the article that YM posted here.

 

The Western mindset is too self-centered. Way too self-centered. Anything that complies to this self-centeredness is regarded with suspicion by more traditional practicioners.

 

Self-centeredness, Self-indulgence, Over-excitement and Over-stimulation - that are a result of feeding the body and mind with toxics...

 

You cannot take that as a beginning point for practice.

You cannot take that as a foundation for anything.

 

My humble opinion is that most practicioners need serious psychotherapy and medical care practice... before any beginning daoist practice.

There are also systems in the West that begin with this detoxifying of the body and mind, one of which is the one I practice - see the link in my signature. In my experience, this can be a very good prerequisite for any serious study of the Dao, whether you choose a scholar, traditional, or western type of training. In it's initial stages, this is exactly what it does: brings you back to "normal", clean and clear.

 

L1

'Little 1',

Their is a part of me that wants to respond to that but who can open minds once they have closed and think they know a better way.

Joe

[宁]

'Little 1',

Their is a part of me that wants to respond to that but who can open minds once they have closed and think they know a better way.

Joe

 

here's a riddle: to you, i'm just a mirror

[metzu]

here's a riddle: to you, i'm just a mirror

Little 1

Your bait, is for the minnows.

No riddles or trick phrases fill the void.

Joe

[YMWong]

I have a few Chinese friends, and invariably, their lifestyles, even in this country, are markedly different from those of non-Chinese people around them.

 

I am sure different countries have different habits. I have travelled quite a bit, although of course I cannot say I have seen it all, and have lived in various places including the USA (for a couple of years after I graduated).

 

We spoke about changes that Daoism went by in its history and how those changes were all made by people INSIDE THE TRADITION. For a reason or another, be that historically or at times even political, somebody made some changes.

 

But if, as an outsider, you think you can "take what fits you" from a Daoist Tradition and leave outside what does not then you are IMO well off-base. Even if you claim that what you take off is due to 'cultural or geographical' reasons which you cannot accept because "you were not born into a corresponding lifestyle".

 

Let's say you want to become a Quanzhen Daoist (daoshi). One of the first requirements is full celibacy, even nocturnal emissions are strictly prohibited and must be controlled.

But then maybe because you grew up in a country that allows it you want to keep your six wifes and continue your regular sex life.

 

Or you want to become a Medical Doctor only studying the lower body anatomy since you have decided to later specialize in treating people's leg ?

 

YM

[Taomeow]

I am sure different countries have different habits. I have travelled quite a bit, although of course I cannot say I have seen it all, and have lived in various places including the USA (for a couple of years after I graduated).

 

We spoke about changes that Daoism went by in its history and how those changes were all made by people INSIDE THE TRADITION. For a reason or another, be that historically or at times even political, somebody made some changes.

 

But if, as an outsider, you think you can "take what fits you" from a Daoist Tradition and leave outside what does not then you are IMO well off-base. Even if you claim that what you take off is due to 'cultural or geographical' reasons which you cannot accept because "you were not born into a corresponding lifestyle".

 

Let's say you want to become a Quanzhen Daoist (daoshi). One of the first requirements is full celibacy, even nocturnal emissions are strictly prohibited and must be controlled.

But then maybe because you grew up in a country that allows it you want to keep your six wifes and continue your regular sex life.

 

Or you want to become a Medical Doctor only studying the lower body anatomy since you have decided to later specialize in treating people's leg ?

 

YM

 

YM,

 

I'm baffled by the way your reading comprehension skills work. I have no idea what you're talking about, because you seem to argue against something I never said, put thoughts in my head I never encountered there, and ignore completely what I did say. On top of worrying about my nocturnal emissions and my six wives. In reality, I'm many things you don't know I am, none of the things you seem to think/assert I am, and I've no vested interest in changing this -- but at least can you take my word for my being a woman?

[YMWong]

I'm baffled by the way your reading comprehension skills work.

 

While my comprehension skills might be poor, and holding a conversation in a second language might increase chances of misunderstanding, when one speaks and the other doesn't understand there is always the possibility for the speaker to have no been clear. N'est pas ?

 

 

but at least can you take my word for my being a woman?

 

Sure !

 

And do you think I thought you were a Doctor, too ?

 

 

 

YM

[Taomeow]

While my comprehension skills might be poor, and holding a conversation in a second language might increase chances of misunderstanding, when one speaks and the other doesn't understand there is always the possibility for the speaker to have no been clear. N'est pas ?

Sure !

 

And do you think I thought you were a Doctor, too ?

 

YM

 

No, because that part was phrased less haphazardly and clearly indicated that you didn't.

 

But the first paragraph of your latest entry baffles me all over again.

 

Don't bother clarifying though, you ignored too many things I said and argued with too many things I didn't say for me to retain any interest in any further exchanges. To be fair, I ignored a few things you said too, but only because I found the idea of responding to those quite boring -- e.g., the doctor metaphor you brought up for the fourth time, I never responded to that, not because I've nothing to say but because I find it pointless, is all.

 

If you ever feel like responding to what me and Craig asked you to talk about -- what do you actually do, cultivation-wise, and how exactly? -- or if you ever feel like asking me what I actually do, and how exactly? -- I will reconsider. Until then, I bid you a virtual farewell.

[松永道]

...what do you actually do, cultivation-wise, and how exactly? -- or if you ever feel like asking me what I actually do, and how exactly?

 

 

I'm interested!

[YMWong]

-- or if you ever feel like asking me what I actually do, and how exactly? -- I will reconsider. Until then, I bid you a virtual farewell.

 

The day I'll turn my attention from Daoism to the "Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba traditions" you'll be the first I consider for informations.

 

Thank you in any case and be well

 

YM

Edited September 30, 2008 by YMWong

[Procurator]

The Scriptures simply stands for the Tradition as passed down from previous generations.

 

YM

No they dont, othervise written talimans or magic books that you dont even need to read would not exsist. The role of written text is sorely misunderstood.

[Procurator]

If Taoist teachers had not been so paranoid of "round-eyed devils" in the first place then Taoism may have been exported (as all religions hope for their "solution to life's problems" to be) in a more pure form.

Hi there Taoist81:))

 

its a valid observation...however this is not just paranaia, any one who divulges a secret to the unworthy weakens himself and strengthens evil. This is just how things work. Also, Taoism is not a religion, it looks partially like a religion but in its core it is not.

[YMWong]

No they dont, othervise written talimans or magic books that you dont even need to read would not exsist. The role of written text is sorely misunderstood.

 

You have taken the sentence out of context.

 

The Three Threasures are Dao (the Universal Principle), the Master (who transmits the Principles) and the Scripture (which enunciates the Principles).

"Written talisman and magic books" are not Scriptures (Jing) per se, although they might be part of some scriptures.

 

YM

[styrofoamdog]

Of course the author of the Tao of Pooh knows nothing about Daoism. Of course the author of the article knows more. But does the author of the article understand the fundamental principles of Daoist meditation practices? Does he understand the relationships that exist between the mind, breathing, and qi? Of course not, because he confuses Daoist tradition with authentic practice, so he's just subscribing to popular superstitions. Even hundreds of years ago, most Daoists were confused about meditation and all sorts of nonsense was being practiced because people (like now) did not really understand the fundamental principles -- why they were doing what they did.

 

The love for self-congratulatory subjective philosophy is what creates a market for books like the Tao of Pooh. The obsession with Daoist tradition and supernatural powers provides a breeding ground for charlatans. If people were actually interested in spiritual cultivation through Daoism, there wouldn't be so many Mantak Chia's in the world.

[Procurator]

Even hundreds of years ago, most Daoists were confused about meditation and all sorts of nonsense was being practiced --

one can only marvel at hubris and self delusion ppl are capable of now days. Edited September 30, 2008 by Procurator

[Taoist81]

Hi there Taoist81:))

 

its a valid observation...however this is not just paranaia, any one who divulges a secret to the unworthy weakens himself and strengthens evil. This is just how things work. Also, Taoism is not a religion, it looks partially like a religion but in its core it is not.

 

Understandably so, if something is worth earning, then it should be earned. The stories of Lu Dong Bin point that out well. However, excluding those who would be worthy and remaining absolutely silent allows for the breeding of imposters with nothing but a pissing contest to distinguish the valid from the invalid. Any "master" with a little charisma can go out and claim to be initiated into a secret lineage in the mountains and teach for cash. Add in a little charletanism, cold reading and good genes for aging and you have an "immortal". On the other hand, if lineages taught basics openly and then allowed those who were worthy to go on then you would have a standard to judge by. Since that died out with the "People's" Republic the strength of secrecy is now highly damaged.

As far as secrets go, in Western Traditions often the instructions are published openly but much of it is only useful with initiation and/or personal instruction.

[宁]

Hey guys, is "The School of Seclusion" the only policy that the traditional daoists had?

 

I might mess up a bit, but please allow me some reflections: I saw some the principles and the results of traditional daoism, and I saw some of the principles and results of non-traditional daoism. Both are attractive to people.

From what I've seen until now, the traditional dao... seems to have too many strings attached...

Many codes rules obligations...

Is this true or just a false image?

 

L1

[styrofoamdog]

one can only marvel at hubris and self delusion ppl are capable of now days.

If people read Daoist classics on meditation, they can see for themselves. The authors criticize popular but incorrect practices while presenting their corrected methods. Meditation practices were misunderstood widely in the past (as they are today), and there were accordingly few people who cultivated the Dao successfully. I'm not sure why this is controversial, it's pretty obvious that finding genuine Daoist masters who have practiced the meditation work successfully, was (and is) a rare thing.

[Procurator]

If people read Daoist classics on meditation, they can see for themselves. The authors criticize popular but incorrect practices while presenting their corrected methods.

so do you think this "incorrect practices" did not have their own "classics' which criticised other texts?

[Procurator]

and there were accordingly few people who cultivated the Dao successfully. I'm not sure why this is controversial, it's pretty obvious that finding genuine Daoist masters who have practiced the meditation work successfully, was (and is) a rare thing.

many obvious concepts are wrong. this one is wrong because a) "success" is a function of destiny there are many grades to success and c) finding a master is easier than popularly thought but it depends on destiny as well.

 

your assumption that "most Daoists were confused about meditation and all sorts of nonsense was being practiced " is wrong - those people did what they were predistined to do and achived what they were predestined to achieve in that lifetime.

 

Thinking that they were practising nonsense is just hubris. Do you think that they were stupider than you?