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Cameron

The "S" word

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So I was walking around the Atlanta Zoo today with my sister and her baby and while surrouded by all these animals and kids and parents having fun realized this whole path really comes down to surrender.

 

Chris added a chapter on this in the new Kunlun book. What do you all feel about this? Is there anything that can be said? It seems to me all these words and concepts ultimately fail and all that is left is you,your practice and the rest of the universe. And all that is to be done is surrender and let go.

 

I was strongly headed on that path before I started Kunlun with a couple of advaita teachers, Adyashanti and Jeannie Zandi. But Kunlun seems to embody the essence of "spirituality"(I don't really like that word) in that it is ALL about surrender. So elegantly simple anyone can learn to do it in 10 seconds. But surrendering and letting go, trusting the Tao, though simple is also so challenging.

 

Maybe that's the real challenge, to be able to really surrender, be joyful and loving within the midst of chaos,confusion,anger,hatred. Easy to say hard to do.

 

How do you all view the "S" word?

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So I was walking around the Atlanta Zoo today with my sister and her baby and while surrouded by all these animals and kids and parents having fun realized this whole path really comes down to surrender.

 

Chris added a chapter on this in the new Kunlun book. What do you all feel about this? Is there anything that can be said? It seems to me all these words and concepts ultimately fail and all that is left is you,your practice and the rest of the universe. And all that is to be done is surrender and let go.

 

I was strongly headed on that path before I started Kunlun with a couple of advaita teachers, Adyashanti and Jeannie Zandi. But Kunlun seems to embody the essence of "spirituality"(I don't really like that word) in that it is ALL about surrender. So elegantly simple anyone can learn to do it in 10 seconds. But surrendering and letting go, trusting the Tao, though simple is also so challenging.

 

Maybe that's the real challenge, to be able to really surrender, be joyful and loving within the midst of chaos,confusion,anger,hatred. Easy to say hard to do.

 

How do you all view the "S" word?

 

 

Like an animal in a cage.

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In my understanding, it's all a matter of faith.

 

To have faith means to have absolute trust. Now, if your faith is complete, a stage is reached where you surrender everything. Ego et al.

 

Yes. It is all about surrender. Just as it is all about faith, trust and love. They are all slightly different angles of viewing the same step.

 

On a more personal note, I was once told to surrender when the time came. My ego couldn't resist the idea that this was psychosis, yet my intuition told me differently. A spirit guide, a reflection of self, or whatsoever it was, I knew it was there to help. Hours later I was naked before the divine all-pervading light. Simply no 'I' to witness, simply no differentiation, simply no knowledge of the body. Heavenly bliss.

 

Upon my return to my body much happened. But my ego was tested - I was asked to surrender to the divine and go into retreat for 5 years. Alas, I failed the test. My ego kicked in kicking and screaming like a small child. I wanted to help those who had helped me, to show them my love and to help them to grow. I left that plane after hearing the whispers of, "He's not ready. Let go."

 

If only 'I' had surrendered.

 

Yours, with much love,

James

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I shouldn't be posting in this thread, although I suppose I am now an honorary taoist since I am doing Wuji standing.

 

I think it might be different for women than for men. Surrendering is a natural thing for women, at least at first. Some may get so broken and damaged from surrendering that they lose the ability, but in general I think it is easy for us. In my own case I think the difficulty is having the wisdom to discern to whom one should surrender. I think that's one of the fundamental tasks of women, to learn how to make good choices. It certainly is the case in the rest of the animal kingdom--ladies' choice! :D

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I shouldn't be posting in this thread, although I suppose I am now an honorary taoist since I am doing Wuji standing.

 

you are doing wuji standing? Wow, congratulations. I know many daoists who don't.

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Surrender is a part of it.

 

There are a lot of things that we have that we cannot take with us if we want to reach a certain place. We have to surrender those things so that we can move on to new places and acquire new things... or... well not really new things but... you know what I mean :D

 

Surrender though has such a negative connotation in English, it feels awkward saying that you must surrender...

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Good point Witch.

 

I guess what I was getting a little experience of was the thing some Taoists talk about becoming like water. Water surrends, flows with the current not against it. To me, surrender doesn't imply some weak state where you can get trampled on but a state of flowing with not against.

 

I am just stumbling my way through this though. There have been some really high vibe responses to this on the Kunlun board along the lines of letting go of your own desires and following the path of the Bodhisattva.

 

I think that is what my intention in writing this post was aiming at. I wasn't thinking about it in an anti empowerment or anti freedom sense. Maybe more in a sense of being more connected. Like the martial arts master who can let go tension and use the opponents own strength against him(or her).

 

While still having a smile on your face :)

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I shouldn't be posting in this thread, although I suppose I am now an honorary taoist since I am doing Wuji standing.

 

I think it might be different for women than for men. Surrendering is a natural thing for women, at least at first. Some may get so broken and damaged from surrendering that they lose the ability, but in general I think it is easy for us. In my own case I think the difficulty is having the wisdom to discern to whom one should surrender. I think that's one of the fundamental tasks of women, to learn how to make good choices. It certainly is the case in the rest of the animal kingdom--ladies' choice! :D

 

 

I can see your point.

But I suspect it is the flow of life you surrender to, not a person.

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Wow does "S" stand for sharp?

When I was at the zoo the last time, I saw lots and lots of animals who have surrendered. There was this one black gorilla there, a huge male, who was just sitting, in a completely human pose, looking into the void. He wasn't paying any attention to anyone or anything -- but then, for a few seconds, he made eye contact with me, held his gaze, then slowly turned away. I nearly died of shame and grief.

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When I was at the zoo the last time, I saw lots and lots of animals who have surrendered. There was this one black gorilla there, a huge male, who was just sitting, in a completely human pose, looking into the void. He wasn't paying any attention to anyone or anything -- but then, for a few seconds, he made eye contact with me, held his gaze, then slowly turned away. I nearly died of shame and grief.

 

Yes.

I've had many unpleasent moments in zoo's. Remember vividly two big beautiful cats, a

tiger rushing alongside the glasswall, 30 cm's from me and the kids..like an insane machine..repeating the movements endlessly, back and forth back and forth, the natural flow of his body eating away into tiny muscletics and that glassy mixed look of resignation still broken by seconds of surfacing natural lifeforce.

 

 

rodgerj

"My teacher was a woman who taught me how powerful surrender really is. I spent years forcing energy in and around me and that did no good. When I learnt to surrender I learnt to love and became closer to my real self then I ever have."

"It is unfortunate that our ego's try and shape everything to fit our expectations. "

 

 

 

Interesting stories about mammals. Very different conditions. One story is not about mutuality, natural circulation and balance. The right to exert flexibility.

 

 

quote a.h. almaas;

"We just said that kundalini is an aspect of essence. This is true, but in a very specific way - in the sense that kundalini is a true energy, the energy of essence. However, kundalini is usually not seen as an aspect of essence because it is energy. Essence, in the strict sense of a word, is our being, It is the very substance of existence. Essential aspects exist on the being level and not on the energy level.

Now, is there a way to activate essence in such a way that it would keep manifestingone aspect after the other without being interrupted, then our solution would be found. And in fact, there is a way that will do just that. That has to do with a certain essential aspect, that of space - space, the dimension of emptiness, the dimension of the void. If a person can experience space, the essence will manifest spontaneously, one aspect following another."

The aspect of space is, just like any other essential aspect, related to a certain sector of the personality. Dealing with thsis sector, which has to do with self image.., will easily prcipitate the experience of space. This in turn will activate the descending force, essence, in its various aspects.The presence of precise knowledge about this aspect of space, along with the presence of the teacher who embodies it or whom embodies all aspects, will lead easily and quickly to the realization of this basic openness.This is because the issues concerning it, those connected to self image, are usually close to the surface of consciousness of the individual."

 

"For an example, let us look at the sector relateed to the aspect of will, and so at the individual who has conflicts around castration, impotence, confidence in himself, self-reliance, need for support, and the like. Such conflicts and psychological issues govern his relationships to others, his actions in his life and his feelings about himself.

If he manages to resolve these personal issues, he will come in contact with his true and essential will. Then the manifestation of the aspect of will in him will spontaneously eliminate all these conflicts. He will experience a sense of true determination; he will feel confident in himself; he will feel self-reliant, potent, powerful and able to supprt himself in the way he needs. He will, most importantly, experience his essence directly in the aspect of will. He will not feel he HAS will, he will feel he IS will - he is the support.

Now suppose this individual is the disciple of a teaching which emphasizes surrender.., and he is feeling impotent and dependent. He is having problems with the sector of his personality corresponding to the aspect of will; he lacks will. He goes to his teacher or guru for help. The teacher being true to his teachings, advises the disciple that he needs to surrender to God's will. He needs to let go of his wordly concerns, of his personality. The teacher tells the disciple that he needs to be in touch with the aspect of his essence having to do with surrender . the part of his being in which his heart melts..

Now what will the disciple do? His need is not for the aspect of surrendr. His exact need at the moment is for the aspect of will. His life, his situation, his mind, his heart, are all crying out for confidence and determination. But his teacher tells him he needs surrender. He loves his teacher. He trusts him. He believes in him. But what can he do?

Here in a nutshell, we see the dilemma. No wonder nothing happens, but obviously nothing happens, exept frustration and more suffering. The teacher looks at his disciple, sees him doing his prayers, but can also discern under the surface that he is fighting, trying to assert his will. The teacher tells his student he is only pretending, that he is not really surrendering, non trusting. It is true that the disciple is just pretendint. But he is in a bind.His essence is approaching his consciousness with the aspect of will. Yet his guru who is supposed to be the representative of essence - ...exhorts him to surrender. The teacher has his heart open, feels surrendered to God, and truly believes his disciple needs the same thing, needs to surrender his will.

It is true the disciple needs to surrender his will, or more accurately, attune it with reality. But first he must have his will. Then it is possible for him to surrender his will."

Edited by rain

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Maybe there's a difference between Taoism and other things when it comes to surrender.

 

I feel that Taoism is a surrender to nature (true nature), but other things like Buddhism, Christianity, etc. require devotional surrender to the "master" or guru.

 

Do you guys feel that surrender (and I mean like . . . Devotional surrender) is Taoist, or that Taoist practice requires this?

 

If so or if not, do they, and if they do at what level do they become interdependent?

 

But anyway I agree totally that surrender is a key issue. :)

Edited by wudangquan

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When I was at the zoo the last time, I saw lots and lots of animals who have surrendered. There was this one black gorilla there, a huge male, who was just sitting, in a completely human pose, looking into the void. He wasn't paying any attention to anyone or anything -- but then, for a few seconds, he made eye contact with me, held his gaze, then slowly turned away. I nearly died of shame and grief.

 

 

Totally agree about zoos.

 

PS. Sharp was good.

 

PPS. Surrender is the meaning of Islam by the way.

Edited by apepch7

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I feel that Taoism is a surrender to nature (true nature), but other things like Buddhism, Christianity, etc. require devotional surrender to the "master" or guru.

 

 

Why does there have to be a difference between these? The way I see it, they all surrender to the same source.

 

Christ is the finger pointing to the moon, yes, without the finger, us Christians would not know where the moon is, what the moon is, or that one even exists. The problem is that too many Christians have gotten caught up in the finger; thus they have surrendered to the finger and forgotten all about the moon.

 

The highest point of any tradition is the surrender to true nature.

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Maybe the experience of surrender varies according to what it is that you have to stop doing?

 

And maybe men find it really tricky. I do.

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I didn't mean to imply that there has to be a distinction between devotional surrender and surrender to truth.

 

I'm just asking what people think about it. :)

 

I personally guess that it's either interdependent or they're both below and leading towards another state . . .

 

Just - I am not spiritually evolved enough to know, and don't maintain any pretense of being. I just have some academic and experiential data that I can guess from.

 

Sometimes I say things, or put things out there, but I never mean to pass myself off as any kind of authority on the subject. Mostly I'm just guessing and feeling my way around, and trying to do well at the things I know for sure I should be doing, and I believe that the rest will come to me as part of the process when I'm ready.

 

My understanding is that the goals of cultivation themselves are different. To become a Tao, or become a Buddha, etc., and that the means creates the end, or the process determines the outcome.

 

So I think that the goals of surrender may be pretty similar or almost the same, but my guess is that they are different, tactically.

 

Jonathan

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No harm, no fault, brotha...in the end it's all surrender to the same source, just some climb up the mountain with no tools, some walk barefoot, some hike up the mountain, and others break out the mountain climbing gear.

 

We're all trynna climb the same mountain and reach the same source, it's just our methods and points of view that differ. Nothin but love brotha!

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but other things like Buddhism, Christianity, etc. require devotional surrender to the "master" or guru.

 

Not true. As a Buddhist I surrender to no one but myself. No guru or master is needed or wanted for that matter.

 

zz

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Hi ZZ,

 

I respectfully defer to your own superior knowledge of yourself and what you believe.

 

I also respectfully disagree that Buddhism (in any variant) doesn't require devotional surrender. :)

 

I would maybe suggest that you're not taking refuge in your self. Or maybe you are. I don't know.

 

I also realize that I have started every sentence in this post with the word "I". haha

 

Jonathan

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I think it might be different for women than for men. Surrendering is a natural thing for women, at least at first. Some may get so broken and damaged from surrendering that they lose the ability, but in general I think it is easy for us. In my own case I think the difficulty is having the wisdom to discern to whom one should surrender. I think that's one of the fundamental tasks of women, to learn how to make good choices. It certainly is the case in the rest of the animal kingdom--ladies' choice! :D
You surrender to God, your Higher Self or whatever higher power you choose. Yes, this does require trust and faith in the Divine, but that's the point. You reach a point in life where you admit that your brain only knows so much and your local ego can only get you so far. You realize that to pass those limits, you must then pass the limits of your own local point of consciousness/ego and accept help from a power far greater than yourself. This is the essence of prayer. Surrender thus demonstrates faith and humility, both attributes that please the gods...

 

And yes, I do find surrender (especially when expressed with sincere pleading) a key to ecstatic experiences.

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or whatever higher power you choose.

 

That's what I'm saying--I think for women this is the complicated part, the choosing.

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