The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[joeblast]

 

I have a pet theory- if it's real, then it's real. If you do it right, then it happens. Sounds a bit circular?

 

Here's an easy one- gravity. We don't really know how or why it works. We just know that it does. If I approach dropping a bowling ball with skepticism, it's pretty damn likely that that bowling ball is going to drop. A lot of scientific studies and personal experience have confirmed this.

 

Now sometimes a scientific inquiry will refute something that one predicts due to their experiences (like objects with different masses falling with the same speeds, you may not think so at first, but that's due to some of the conditions of most peoples' personal experiences).

 

Now my theory is that energy and spiritual phenomena should work the same way. If it is legitimately real, then as long as you go through the process properly, even if you are skeptical, then it should work.

 

The proof of the pudding, as they say, should be in the eating! The practice should make you a believer- you shouldn't have to be a believer in order for the practice to work. That is the EXACT sort of rhetoric that I am talking about- the kind that shuts down questions and dissent from the ranks. Because if you ask questions, it implies you are a bad student and not gonna get anywhere. And that is just not cool.

 

On top of that, I haven't seen any of the believers able to back up any of their words with actions. Just more rhetoric about how you should be more open minded, about how powers and abilities aren't the goal, about how you feel really nice and la la la....

 

Once again, there are claims being made which, if true, could easily be verifiable. How about we verify them? What is there to lose? What, people would actually believer you BEFORE handing over their time and money to a practice? Yikes, how unreasonable! [/sarcasm]

Sorry I left out a "given" - a certain requisite level of training. If you're not energetically open enough, then whether you believe or not, it is unlikely to happen. If you are energetically open enough but have a firm mental grasp on disbelief or a certain expectation about qualities of the manifestation itself, that absolutely has the potential to hinder the phenomena from ever happening. That's what the gist of the "belief" mention is. Spiritual work is not a pill you take that will have a certain level of effect regardless of your opinion of it - that analogy is generally good but certain times it is too far.

 

Its not a matter of "believe and it works" - an insinuation that descriptions can be so thoroughly flattened and still retain their relational power is folly.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sorry I left out a "given" - a certain requisite level of training. If you're not energetically open enough, then whether you believe or not, it is unlikely to happen. If you are energetically open enough but have a firm mental grasp on disbelief or a certain expectation about qualities of the manifestation itself, that absolutely has the potential to hinder the phenomena from ever happening. That's what the gist of the "belief" mention is. Spiritual work is not a pill you take that will have a certain level of effect regardless of your opinion of it - that analogy is generally good but certain times it is too far.

 

Its not a matter of "believe and it works" - an insinuation that descriptions can be so thoroughly flattened and still retain their relational power is folly.

 

Yes but see that's the problem- you can put as many givens as you like, those givens are poorly, if ever, defined.

 

What is the requisite level of training? What are the benchmarks? Feeling happy? Being in bliss for at least 2 hours? Having healed a certain number of peoples' cancer? Having a coffee cup fall through your disappearing arm?

 

Who are the people who are energetically open enough? I'm sure there are a few you could think of. Now how do they get that way? How do you know that they are that way? If they can heal, let's see them heal. If coffee cups have trouble staying in their hand, well then let's see that.

 

My point, and the point I think many skeptics keep trying to make, is that things like this are quite easily provable. It's quite easy to move stories like this from "hearsay" into "verified fact". So.... why don't we? There are lots of reasons excuses for why they can't/don't (world is not ready, power lines are a bother, etc etc)..... but, well, it just seems silly.

 

There are people out there marketing their system and relaying stories about Golden Dragon Body and other types of craziness, yet the only people who are willing to step forward in support of that system (who aren't marketing the system) don't really have any ways of verifying any of that, and only talk about feel good, amorphous concepts.

 

Now that's not to say that those things aren't good. But let's hold people to their word here: if someone says they can manifest some high energy, super rare thing, and still come back to our plane of existence, let's see that. Because that's well beyond our normal scope of experiences and scientific knowledge, there would need to be some evidence before that to be believed.

 

And if you can't/won't actually demonstrate, well, at the VERY least you can understand how and why people will treat that claim skeptically given the evidence at their disposal. At the most, you could refrain from making claims like that part of your marketing strategy, it smacks of dishonesty and exploitation at the very worst, and at the very best, misdirection.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Immortal4life]

I don't know much about the system being talked about here, and it doesn't interest me. I know most people who have heard of this system know it as "Lama Thunderbolt", and I have never talked to anyone in real life that thought it was worth looking into. Most people who practice respected systems I know of, put this system in the same category as Yellow Bamboo.

 

Here is a list of things that I am always suspicious of, and don't generally believe in-

 

1. Empty Force, for reasons explained earlier in this thread. No one who ever claimed empty force ever was able to do it when challenged or against people who were not their students.

 

2. Methods that claim to induce "spontaneous movements". I know there are quite a few respected qigong masters who have said they have never experienced this, that it isn't in line with Tao or natural progress, and they think people who claim this are acting.

 

3. Anyone who emphasizes, "feelings", "energy sensations", "bliss", etc. The purpose of energy practice is good health, relaxation, and develoment of the mind. If you focus on sensations you are definitely going to run into trouble and have problems. This is a good way to get qi deviations.

 

4. Anyone emphasizing quick results, "intense results", and who doesn't put a strong emphasis on gradual gentle practice, patience, and building progress bit by bit, day by day.

 

5. Claims of abilities, yet not being willing to prove it. If you don't want to prove something, don't publically claim it.

 

I'm not interested in this system, because although I haven't looked into it much at all, and don't plan to.... everything I have heard about it raises red flags, doesn't fit with what I know, and makes me feel apprehensive.

[joeblast]

Yes but see that's the problem- you can put as many givens as you like, those givens are poorly, if ever, defined.

 

What is the requisite level of training? What are the benchmarks? Feeling happy? Being in bliss for at least 2 hours? Having healed a certain number of peoples' cancer? Having a coffee cup fall through your disappearing arm?

 

Who are the people who are energetically open enough? I'm sure there are a few you could think of. Now how do they get that way? How do you know that they are that way? If they can heal, let's see them heal. If coffee cups have trouble staying in their hand, well then let's see that.

 

My point, and the point I think many skeptics keep trying to make, is that things like this are quite easily provable. It's quite easy to move stories like this from "hearsay" into "verified fact". So.... why don't we? There are lots of reasons excuses for why they can't/don't (world is not ready, power lines are a bother, etc etc)..... but, well, it just seems silly.

 

There are people out there marketing their system and relaying stories about Golden Dragon Body and other types of craziness, yet the only people who are willing to step forward in support of that system (who aren't marketing the system) don't really have any ways of verifying any of that, and only talk about feel good, amorphous concepts.

 

Now that's not to say that those things aren't good. But let's hold people to their word here: if someone says they can manifest some high energy, super rare thing, and still come back to our plane of existence, let's see that. Because that's well beyond our normal scope of experiences and scientific knowledge, there would need to be some evidence before that to be believed.

 

And if you can't/won't actually demonstrate, well, at the VERY least you can understand how and why people will treat that claim skeptically given the evidence at their disposal. At the most, you could refrain from making claims like that part of your marketing strategy, it smacks of dishonesty and exploitation at the very worst, and at the very best, misdirection.

Oh, I understand and sympathize...but then again...

 

replying to this in endless ways does get a little tiresome I understand the wish, desire for objective empirical tests, measured and specific point of achievement, etc...but that ignores the uncertainty principle....

[Immortal4life]

To me, the issue is completely being missed by everyone in this thread.

 

In my view, the problem is not really in people making "claims without proof", in "marketing", or anything like that.

 

The real problem is people not knowing, and being ignorant, about what qigong is, how it is supposed to be taught, and what it is really all about.

 

So if you don't know a lot about it, but you are interested in it, what do you do? Some people will read ancient or esoteric texts, and have a hard time understanding them. From there, well, most people seek out a teacher. Many people put their teacher on a pedestal, always say "I'm so lucky I found this old chinese man to teach me", etc.

 

The problem is how do you know he is good? He could just be taking your money, or maybe he really thinks he knows something about qigong when he doesn't really. In this case, people will get a wrong idea about what qigong is all about.

 

If you ask me, the best way is to do broad research. I recommend respected, recognized systems and schools, over independent, isolated ones that are about marketing. Study many schools of qigong, study TCM, study martial arts, study chinese history. Then you will gradually be able to seperate the good from the bad.

 

A good starting point to get a grasp of incorrect vs. correct qigong methods IMO would be this article I posted a while back-

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16722-info-on-side-effects-from-incorrect-qigong-practice/

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[ralis]

W

Oh, I understand and sympathize...but then again...

 

replying to this in endless ways does get a little tiresome I understand the wish, desire for objective empirical tests, measured and specific point of achievement, etc...but that ignores the uncertainty principle....

 

Are you saying that success in the Max system falls in the realm of a statsical probability that is an unknown? However, the hype is otherwise and is implied that all will benefit.

 

Why are none of his students manifesting transparency and other abilities?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Oh, I understand and sympathize...but then again...

 

replying to this in endless ways does get a little tiresome

 

Yes, especially when all it would take to settle the matter is some reliable verification of the claims

 

After that, if anyone asks, or brings the topic up again, you can send them some FACTS not fiction.

 

It's too bad that I can't think of a successful model in which this has worked.... oh, that's right, I can. Head over to the bullshido forums, go to the traditional martial arts section, and start bashing tai chi. If you aren't flamed out of there for being an idiot, someone may be kind enough to point you to the past threads in which they've investigated tai chi practitioners who actually train it to be used in fights, as well as post links to videos showing clear applications of tai chi moves in sanshou.

 

It used to be people thought it was just some dance, then some people proved them wrong, and now anybody who comes in there thinking otherwise is quickly shown the FACTS not fiction. None of this "well it worked for me, just believe me" or, "it'll only work if you believe it'll work", or something like that.

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[ralis]

I think the main problem with Max or any guru is the problem of the intercessor, sole transmission holder or middleman. On Max's old site he stated one of his names and said he was the last of his kind. Very exclusive view of himself it would seem.

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well I'd be interesting in seeing what's there to see.

 

What I do seem to recall is the changing story regarding exactly what Max learned from/taught to Jenny Lamb, where who spontaneous movement fits into it. Different people will tell differently about who contributed what, how much, and where it all came from.

 

It's all very interesting.

[ralis]

That is his game. Exlusive. Only from me. I am the only one. I am the answer.

 

Truth is...he made up a chinese fairy tale full of history for a practice he took from someone else, renamed something that belonged to no one (Jenny being the lineage holder)tried to copyright and control and now claims that only he can provide the essential transmission for progressing down the power path.

 

What will REALLY be interesting is to compare the book that just got pulled from US Markets with whatever NEW history he decides to come up with. I think he pulled the book because Jenny Wu has gone public in her teachings, and he absolutely got called out on his game. He never thought Jenny would start teaching publicly....word gets around. I have a letter to a student he was strongly discouraging from going to Jenny's workshop, threatening and demonizing Jenny as ineffective (He likes to say he took her system and MADE IT BETTER LOL) That person quit shortly after taking Jenny's class. It all became clear. The things he is saying now are in direct conflict with what I heard him spout in workshops years ago. One of the letters I will post soon is from Max stating the history and lineage of each practice/system he teaches, he now claims ALL OF IT encompasses his system-- not any one practice. Compare that to what is written in the book. HUGE GAPS. Do the research and you will find exactly what I am referring to (even on the website)compared to the book.

 

Does anyone ever wonder why we dont hear from him on this forum or anywhere else? Well he does have a phony profile as does his girlfriend (both very active) but that is very different than stepping up and stating his truth. Never gonna happen. That is why he hid from Sifu Jenny when she went to speak with him.

 

Usually the trickster just ends up tricking himself...

 

Where did he dream up that he is a Tibetan Lama and now is a Mongolian Shaman?

[taotongue]

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[taotongue]

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[taotongue]

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[torus693]

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[torus693]

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[torus693]

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[torus693]

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[taotongue]

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[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue