For those of you still chasing "abilities"

[Patrick Brown]

not everyone here wants to awaken

 

i love my ego!

There is no ego lose the ego just becomes subordinate to the higher self. Another way to put it is to say that the ego is lessened.

 

I love my ego to!

[Unconditioned]

There is no ego lose the ego just becomes subordinate to the higher self. Another way to put it is to say that the ego is lessened.

 

I love my ego to!

 

Well put!

 

It's not that you completely disappear into thin air and can't think anymore... it's more of being aware of what your ego really is and let it take it's direction from a deeper source.

 

Well... that's what my ego tells me anyway... that bastard's lied to me before so... yeah

[Pranaman]

I appreciate the quote very much.

 

thank you.

[mantis]

Well put!

 

It's not that you completely disappear into thin air and can't think anymore... it's more of being aware of what your ego really is and let it take it's direction from a deeper source.

 

Well... that's what my ego tells me anyway... that bastard's lied to me before so... yeah

 

i think that's called intuition

 

[Patrick Brown]

i think that's called intuition

 

When they knock just open the door.

[Unconditioned]

i think that's called intuition

 

 

We recognize it as intuition - that "gut feeling" - but where does that come from? Have a look!

 

Then again I know you're position on becoming 'awake' or not and can respect that so... have a beer or two, then you can have a gut, to check against.

 

... don't ask, I haven't eaten yet today and I'm a bit off... well more than usual

[Sahaj Nath]

....So clearly two opposite branches are forming like the republicans and the democrats of the Dao. One branch chasing abilities - and the second branch chasing awakening!

And both sides are firmly convinced that the other party is wrong.

Any independents ?

 

yeah, ME!

 

it's not as clear as you may think. i have abilities currently, and i use them daily. and i help others awaken to some of their own on a regular basis. for me they are an end in and of themselves. they help me to understand what is possible for humanity in terms of evolution, and what boundaries are self-imposed that we can transcend or transgress. and it is through my abilities that i serve those around me and earn my living. i have fun exploring how deep the rabbit hole goes in terms of what we are capable. i'm more focused on healing and empathic resonance than anything else, but that's not the whole of it.

 

the difference is that i also know what abilities are NOT.

 

 

Abilities are not the "end goal" they are merely mile markers to track your progress. That is the ONLY valid function they serve.

 

If you spend your whole life meditating and being a good person, you will never in a billion life times achieve liberation from this cycle of death and rebirth.

 

glad you responded, bother.

 

you can spend your whole lifetime doing ANYTHING and never in a billion lifetimes achieve liberation. that's what so many people here don't seem to get. at the risk/hope of being branded a heretic on this forum, liberation is NOT about following any mechanical protocol. without quality of self to really bring to the table, without being truly open and AVAILABLE to the ever-present, the best you or anyone else can hope for is that your exercises will make you more 'prone' to maybe one day trip over liberation at some point, and then hope like hell that it sticks!

 

i don't even know what 'being a good person' means, but you're way off the mark if you attribute the same value to meditation. real meditation is a disposition, not an activity. and some people spend years meditating without ever meditating. if you were to cultivate the quality of the disposition that IS meditation, you might save yourself a lifetime of hassle.

 

i've pressed you in this area before, and you've never really engaged me on it. once on IM we chatted a little bit, and it was the first and only time that you acknowledged the strong possibility that your ideas about this whole thing may be off, and that the very realm that you are so eager to escape forever is none other than YOURSELF! that it is ALL you, as am i, who writes these words to you.

 

if you're serious about your goal being the only thing that really matters to you, then why do you waste SO much time with SO much other shit! robert bruce is NOT going to help you awaken. neither is mopaistudent. neither is robert peng. and neither is any other program, or book, or workshop, if YOU are not available. and if you can't let go of what you think you've already got figured out, you CAN'T be available.

 

you've shared some of your abilities with me. so where are you in terms of achieving liberation, according to your mile markers? abilities ARE indeed markers, but not of absolute liberation. they are more accurately looked at as markers of one branch of human evolution. and that's great, exciting, fun, whatever.

 

go for it, i say. but just be honest with yourself about what it is you're going for. otherwise, you shut the door on what you seek the most.

 

if you're serious, there is more to be understood. there is more homework that you can do. and the pursuit and acquisition of more and better techniques is not where your goal is best served. enjoy your pursuits, brother. i just don't want to see you waste a lifetime believing all this is something it's not.

 

this is all in love and good-spirit. i don't mean this as an assault on you or anyone else.

 

do what thou wilt,

but know thyself.

[Patrick Brown]

do what thou wilt,

but know thyself.

[Kundaolinyi]

If Hua Hu Ching is wiser than a telepath who comunicates directly with the mind, then is the illiterate man wiser than Hua Hu Ching who comunicates so skillfully with a pen? Quite an 'ability' he has.

 

"And you wise men don't know how it fee-hee-hee-heals to be thick... as a brick." **flute playes**

 

Smart is dumb and dumb is smart. Or, we're just saying 'sour grapes'. Even I'm not sure which one.

Same place as the telepath, I would guess.

[yogabonheur]

yeah, ME!

 

it's not as clear as you may think. i have abilities currently, and i use them daily. and i help others awaken to some of their own on a regular basis. for me they are an end in and of themselves. they help me to understand what is possible for humanity in terms of evolution, and what boundaries are self-imposed that we can transcend or transgress. and it is through my abilities that i serve those around me and earn my living. i have fun exploring how deep the rabbit hole goes in terms of what we are capable. i'm more focused on healing and empathic resonance than anything else, but that's not the whole of it.

 

the difference is that i also know what abilities are NOT.

glad you responded, bother.

 

you can spend your whole lifetime doing ANYTHING and never in a billion lifetimes achieve liberation. that's what so many people here don't seem to get. at the risk/hope of being branded a heretic on this forum, liberation is NOT about following any mechanical protocol. without quality of self to really bring to the table, without being truly open and AVAILABLE to the ever-present, the best you or anyone else can hope for is that your exercises will make you more 'prone' to maybe one day trip over liberation at some point, and then hope like hell that it sticks!

 

i don't even know what 'being a good person' means, but you're way off the mark if you attribute the same value to meditation. real meditation is a disposition, not an activity. and some people spend years meditating without ever meditating. if you were to cultivate the quality of the disposition that IS meditation, you might save yourself a lifetime of hassle.

 

i've pressed you in this area before, and you've never really engaged me on it. once on IM we chatted a little bit, and it was the first and only time that you acknowledged the strong possibility that your ideas about this whole thing may be off, and that the very realm that you are so eager to escape forever is none other than YOURSELF! that it is ALL you, as am i, who writes these words to you.

 

if you're serious about your goal being the only thing that really matters to you, then why do you waste SO much time with SO much other shit! robert bruce is NOT going to help you awaken. neither is mopaistudent. neither is robert peng. and neither is any other program, or book, or workshop, if YOU are not available. and if you can't let go of what you think you've already got figured out, you CAN'T be available.

 

you've shared some of your abilities with me. so where are you in terms of achieving liberation, according to your mile markers? abilities ARE indeed markers, but not of absolute liberation. they are more accurately looked at as markers of one branch of human evolution. and that's great, exciting, fun, whatever.

 

go for it, i say. but just be honest with yourself about what it is you're going for. otherwise, you shut the door on what you seek the most.

 

if you're serious, there is more to be understood. there is more homework that you can do. and the pursuit and acquisition of more and better techniques is not where your goal is best served. enjoy your pursuits, brother. i just don't want to see you waste a lifetime believing all this is something it's not.

 

this is all in love and good-spirit. i don't mean this as an assault on you or anyone else.

 

do what thou wilt,

but know thyself.

 

 

This is exactly my vision on the great "LIBERATION". Too much chasing around for special abbilities, too much energy and time wasted on the side of the ROAD. At least this is what I believe.

Perhaps there is a person who doesn't measure his/her in abilities mile-markers, but instead puts their heart and soul into every action they do. Observing the resonance in their being.

I think we fool ourselves thinking that we are in control of our path to liberation if we gain more abilities.

A moment of deep silence - and I mean like the silence of the universe - could reveal what we all ARE.

 

Great writing Hundun!

[wudangquan]

I think . . .

 

You know.

 

The big part of it is merging your primordial energy with your primordial spirit.

 

And there are probably different ways of doing that. Same strategies, but surely some different tactics.

 

And then you realize that as a physical, energetic, and spiritual being, you're responsible for billions x billions of sentient beings.

 

Bouncing someone off a wall with Qi is not that big of a deal. I can poison and destroy entire universes with a pack of marlboros. haha Or - I can try to be as homeo static at least, or radiantly healthy if possible on ALL those levels, and providing a good way, or good context for all the content.

 

For me, it's been a process of kind of like struggle with my ego and false senses, and then the work shifts to letting go. Forgetting the process.

 

That's not to say or even imply that I'm enlightened or anything. I can say clearly that I'm not even close to where I'm trying to go.

 

The naruto fireball stuff is cool and probably gets people interested in cultivating, but I also even disagree that it's even much of an indication of your attainment status.

 

For a lot of people, I think it easily even leads not to just side paths, but to crooked paths. That stuff just naturally happens to you. Or it don't for a while.

 

That being said, I think good instruction is essential, what you "feel" means very little, and agree that meditating and being a good "person" won't cut it.

 

But the phenomenon are not the goal.

[Son Goku]

....So clearly two opposite branches are forming like the republicans and the democrats of the Dao. One branch chasing abilities - and the second branch chasing awakening!

And both sides are firmly convinced that the other party is wrong.

Any independents ?

 

Independent here.

 

It's possible to accidently achieve awakening while chasing abilities or (as we all know) to inadvertently get ablilities while seeking awakening. It's also possible to have realizations and siddhis come to someone who has never heard of a spiritual practice while walking down the street.

 

They say true awakening doesn't come until all seeking is put down. So we seek to stop seeking.

[mwight]

Hundun,

 

 

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

Something isn't working, the mainstream methods are ineffective.

 

 

 

Not ignoring you but I will have to post more after work either 16 hours from now, or tomorrow morning, when I have time.

[Patrick Brown]

Hundun,

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

Something isn't working, the mainstream methods are ineffective.

 

Not ignoring you but I will have to post more after work either 16 hours from now, or tomorrow morning, when I have time.

The true number is 144,000 these are the angelic host which manifest at the end and beginning of a cycle (age). These are the enlightened ones and are the first harvest of this round. The angelic host, enlightened ones, come into being to teach mankind and help them all reach enlightenment so they are Bodhisattvas. So in truth Jesus was a Bodhisattva and the lamb of god a snow lion, king of kings.

 

Of course interpretation is open for discussion. Here's what wikipedia has to say about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144,000

[Gerard]

Hundun,

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

Something isn't working, the mainstream methods are ineffective.

 

Not ignoring you but I will have to post more after work either 16 hours from now, or tomorrow morning, when I have time.

 

What are you talking about?

 

The method is not the problem but consistency and controlling the mind are.

 

Not many beat Mara and this is the biggest obstacle of all: overcoming the darkest corners of the mind. Practitioners who live fully immersed in society have little chance. About th monastic order...hmm most lost the track, they seem more engaged in anything else but enlightenment. About hermits...Honestly, I wouldn't have a clue.

 

Good luck to all!!

[markern]

Hundun,

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

Something isn't working, the mainstream methods are ineffective.

 

Not ignoring you but I will have to post more after work either 16 hours from now, or tomorrow morning, when I have time.

 

This is not true. Both Vipassana and Zen are producing loads of enlightened people. If you go to Zen monastaries in Japan or if you go to budhist monastaries in Thailand or Vietnam you will find plenty. Thomas Merton found huge numbers of enlightened monks when he traveled in India and Tibet. The american insight meditation society tradition is also producing lots of enlightened people, at least at the level of the first and second levels of enlightenment in the Teravadin tradition. It usualy dosen`t take them that long either. The very highest levels of enlightenment takes a long time to reach. Considering that western practioners usualy started to practice in the seventies or eighties at the earlist, there is plenty of time left for that. Why haven`t you heard of these people? Well if you read Jack Kornfields book about living budhist masters you will find about a dozen enlightened Theravadin monks of whom several are very famous in their own countries but you probably haven`t heard of any of them. And these are just a small collection. If you look at the western insight meditation society, as I said there are plenty at at least the lowest elvels of enlightenment (maybe also higher), but that those not automaticly mean they will start making big names for themselves like Osho, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Maharesh Yogi or people like that. THey were/are just charismatic frauds anyway. There are plenty of people teaching quitely or not teaching at all that have gotten enlightened.

 

just a little food for thought, not that i expect any converts after posting this.

 

The clairvoyant may see forms which are elsewhere, but he cannot see the formless. The telepathic may communicate directly with the mind of another, but he cannot communicate with one who has achieved no-mind. The telekinetic may move an object without touching it, but he cannot move the intangible. Such abilities have meaning only in the realm of duality. Therefore, they are meaningless. Within the Great Oneness, though there is no such thing as clairvoyance, telepathy, or telekinesis, all things are seen, all things understood, all things forever in their proper places.

 

--Hua Hu Ching

 

Wise words. But for me, the way I see Sidhis is that they are fun. I wouldn`t work particulary hard to get them and I wouldn`t feel special if I had them, it would just be so much fun to move objects around with my mind or levitate.

[Patrick Brown]

Hmm there's only one question here:

 

1. How do you tell if someone's enlightened?

 

I have stated before that there are two enlightenments, the first is the realisation and then there is the ever unfolding practice of perfecting bliss. For some it's a gradual awakening over a period of a couple of years for others it's a sudden realisation.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I think many people deceive themselves when it comes to siddhis and developing abilities. When pressed for why they want these things, they will usually come back with answers like wanting to help or heal people. This is great, but is the desire to heal people coming from a selfless compassion for others; or is your ego deceiving you? Do you want to heal people quietly without anyone acknowledeging or realizing what you did for them? I am willing to bet that if most people examine their motives carefully and honestly, they still lust after the ego gratification that would arise from using these abilities... even if to heal others.

[Sahaj Nath]

I think many people deceive themselves when it comes to siddhis and developing abilities. When pressed for why they want these things, they will usually come back with answers like wanting to help or heal people. This is great, but is the desire to heal people coming from a selfless compassion for others; or is your ego deceiving you? Do you want to heal people quietly without anyone acknowledeging or realizing what you did for them? I am willing to bet that if most people examine their motives carefully and honestly, they still lust after the ego gratification that would arise from using these abilities... even if to heal others.

 

in a manner of speaking, you're sort of making my point, which is just be honest about what you're going for and why.

 

at the same though, i think you've set up somewhat of a false dichotomy with the 'selfless compassion v. wanting recognition' thing. we are not the distilled manifestation of one polarized force or another. we are far more nuanced than that. all of us. even holy people. that's why i often state that not even the saints were saints! there's really no reason why both can't be true at the same time.

 

and THIS issue is where i think honesty tends to get lost in people's path work. they start believing that they have to be superheros who can only exhibit a very narrow portion of their humanity. Alexandra David-Neel wrote once of living Buddhas in Tibet who would get so fed up with being followed around by people asking for stuff that they would occasionally throw rocks at them! does that disqualify their enlightenment, or does that merely show that they are still human?

 

btw,

 

as i write this, i am drinking the BEST oolong tea i have ever had, IN. MY. LIFE!

 

[Oolong Rabbit]

in a manner of speaking, you're sort of making my point, which is just be honest about what you're going for and why.

 

at the same though, i think you've set up somewhat of a false dichotomy with the 'selfless compassion v. wanting recognition' thing. we are not the distilled manifestation of one polarized force or another. we are far more nuanced than that. all of us. even holy people. that's why i often state that not even the saints were saints! there's really no reason why both can't be true at the same time.

 

and THIS issue is where i think honesty tends to get lost in people's path work. they start believing that they have to be superheros who can only exhibit a very narrow portion of their humanity. Alexandra David-Neel wrote once of living Buddhas in Tibet who would get so fed up with being followed around by people asking for stuff that they would occasionally throw rocks at them! does that disqualify their enlightenment, or does that merely show that they are still human?

 

btw,

 

as i write this, i am drinking the BEST oolong tea i have ever had, IN. MY. LIFE!

 

 

Hi Hundun,

 

I think we pretty much agree on the importance of being honest with yourself, and we're just splitting hairs here now. I only stated my point because for a while siddhis and such were very appealing to me. I then came across writings about how the siddhis often turn into traps or false paths. I began to see people saying and doing things here and on other forums that just felt very wrong in their quest to attain abilities. This led me to examine why I desired them. The truth was too ugly for me to acknowledge at first: that these desires stemmed from vain ambitions to inflate my ego. I rationalized that I wanted these abilities so that I could help/heal others. How noble my ambitions were... not. I kept digging away and realized that this was B.S. My ego had just slapped on a coat of whitewash to rationalize my desire into something more palatable. In any event, I am not saying the siddhis are evil, but the desire for them is usually ego driven. If the siddhis arise, they arise. But don't go chasing them

 

Anyhow, what kind of Oolong? I am partial to Wuyi Rock and Phoenix .

[Sahaj Nath]

Hi Hundun,

 

I think we pretty much agree on the importance of being honest with yourself, and we're just splitting hairs here now. I only stated my point because for a while siddhis and such were very appealing to me. I then came across writings about how the siddhis often turn into traps or false paths. I began to see people saying and doing things here and on other forums that just felt very wrong in their quest to attain abilities. This led me to examine why I desired them. The truth was too ugly for me to acknowledge at first: that these desires stemmed from vain ambitions to inflate my ego. I rationalized that I wanted these abilities so that I could help/heal others. How noble my ambitions were... not. I kept digging away and realized that this was B.S. My ego had just slapped on a coat of whitewash to rationalize my desire into something more palatable. In any event, I am not saying the siddhis are evil, but the desire for them is usually ego driven. If the siddhis arise, they arise. But don't go chasing them

 

Anyhow, what kind of Oolong? I am partial to Wuyi Rock and Phoenix .

 

i hear you, bro. i'm no stranger to that kind of thing myself.

 

 

Jade Oolong. it's only fermented about 20%, so it's the greenest oolong i've ever had. sweet floral scent. fruity taste. full-bodied with a long finish, so the flavor stays with you for a while.

 

kinda pricey, but whatevs. if you're a tea lover, it just might change your life!

 

 

Hundun,

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

Something isn't working, the mainstream methods are ineffective.

 

Not ignoring you but I will have to post more after work either 16 hours from now, or tomorrow morning, when I have time.

 

 

thank you for engaging me on this, my friend.

 

i will wait and give you time to make your full response. respect.

[Unconditioned]

If the siddhis arise, they arise. But don't go chasing them

 

Some serious truth to that... as well as a practice in and of itself. Things that rise and fall are not permanent. But the process itself, change, movement, etc. is.

 

Likewise, our bodies, senses, etc. are not permanent. But the process by which all these are even a possible to occur is.

 

o put it another way: by observing and not judging ANYTHING with our thoughts... That pure observation, will reveal many truths... much like if siddhis arise, observe them but don't let the mind get caught on them... or anything else... just let it be... seek the mind's source and it evaporates... what is left is Truth. If you remove all the things that are not Truth, that are just the mind's illusion, and strip everything bare to it's core... the only thing that can be left when you remove untruth is Truth.

 

Sorry if this sounds cryptic, I don't mean it to be but it's the only way I know how to describe what I'm trying to put across.

 

Edit: fixed some grammar mistakes so it actually made sense

Edited September 15, 2008 by Unconditioned

[de_paradise]

I think many people deceive themselves when it comes to siddhis and developing abilities. When pressed for why they want these things, they will usually come back with answers like wanting to help or heal people. This is great, but is the desire to heal people coming from a selfless compassion for others; or is your ego deceiving you? Do you want to heal people quietly without anyone acknowledeging or realizing what you did for them? I am willing to bet that if most people examine their motives carefully and honestly, they still lust after the ego gratification that would arise from using these abilities... even if to heal others.

 

I disagree. And I was thinking of Mencius who said something like every person would come to the aid of a child who has fallen down a well. Therefore, someone with a healing ability would use it if given the necessity. Of course not everyone would go prospecting, or silently sit in hospital wards curing people (like some teachers I know). There may be a certain level of ego-gratification at the outset, but that is cured by the fact that ego-gratifying behavior leads to boredom and dissatisfaction, so the person doesnt even bother scratching that itch anymore.

[mwight]

Hundun,

 

I will try to keep this as short as possible.

 

You are correct that I might be wrong about everything, but that statement is more accurately applied to my philosophical stance as a freethinker. I don't really "Know" anything for certain, and I'm prepared to edit and revise my world view as more evidence and information comes to light.

 

 

Believe nothing. No Matter where you have read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own common sense.

-Buddha

 

Ever since my childhood I have been a skeptic. To be honest with you I was atheist until 2004/05. I had always said if I experienced something paranormal only then would I believe it. Well I had to live up to that in December 05, but thats a story for another time.

 

It disagrees with my "common sense" to accept the teachings of a person or system that can't produce abilities, or think that they could help me in my goal of liberation.

 

I have scanned the markets, they are filled with millions of new age fluff teachers, courses, and "ancient" wisdom. 99.999% of what is on the market is bullshit. Thats the best word for it.

 

Even modern Buddhism is failing to produce ascending beings (at least that I have heard about)

 

Looking for systems which use abilities as mile markers, or masters who have them serves a very important purpose to me, proving their legitimacy.

 

 

 

yeah, ME!

 

it's not as clear as you may think. i have abilities currently, and i use them daily. and i help others awaken to some of their own on a regular basis. for me they are an end in and of themselves. they help me to understand what is possible for humanity in terms of evolution, and what boundaries are self-imposed that we can transcend or transgress. and it is through my abilities that i serve those around me and earn my living. i have fun exploring how deep the rabbit hole goes in terms of what we are capable. i'm more focused on healing and empathic resonance than anything else, but that's not the whole of it.

 

the difference is that i also know what abilities are NOT.

glad you responded, bother.

 

you can spend your whole lifetime doing ANYTHING and never in a billion lifetimes achieve liberation. that's what so many people here don't seem to get. at the risk/hope of being branded a heretic on this forum, liberation is NOT about following any mechanical protocol. without quality of self to really bring to the table, without being truly open and AVAILABLE to the ever-present, the best you or anyone else can hope for is that your exercises will make you more 'prone' to maybe one day trip over liberation at some point, and then hope like hell that it sticks!

 

i don't even know what 'being a good person' means, but you're way off the mark if you attribute the same value to meditation. real meditation is a disposition, not an activity. and some people spend years meditating without ever meditating. if you were to cultivate the quality of the disposition that IS meditation, you might save yourself a lifetime of hassle.

 

i've pressed you in this area before, and you've never really engaged me on it. once on IM we chatted a little bit, and it was the first and only time that you acknowledged the strong possibility that your ideas about this whole thing may be off, and that the very realm that you are so eager to escape forever is none other than YOURSELF! that it is ALL you, as am i, who writes these words to you.

 

if you're serious about your goal being the only thing that really matters to you, then why do you waste SO much time with SO much other shit! robert bruce is NOT going to help you awaken. neither is mopaistudent. neither is robert peng. and neither is any other program, or book, or workshop, if YOU are not available. and if you can't let go of what you think you've already got figured out, you CAN'T be available.

 

you've shared some of your abilities with me. so where are you in terms of achieving liberation, according to your mile markers? abilities ARE indeed markers, but not of absolute liberation. they are more accurately looked at as markers of one branch of human evolution. and that's great, exciting, fun, whatever.

 

go for it, i say. but just be honest with yourself about what it is you're going for. otherwise, you shut the door on what you seek the most.

 

if you're serious, there is more to be understood. there is more homework that you can do. and the pursuit and acquisition of more and better techniques is not where your goal is best served. enjoy your pursuits, brother. i just don't want to see you waste a lifetime believing all this is something it's not.

 

this is all in love and good-spirit. i don't mean this as an assault on you or anyone else.

 

do what thou wilt,

but know thyself.

Edited September 15, 2008 by mwight

[Pero]

My biggest point of contention is that if current methods and techniques taught by current widely known systems, (mainstream Buddhism for example Zen, Vipassana etc ), were so effective then they should be turning out at least some enlightened and liberated beings each year, right?

 

That isn't happening, and if it is they are hidden away from public view pretty quickly.

 

Some masters claim there are as little as 60-100 hisens (liberated beings) on earth.

Lets do some rough math here 66 people out of 6.6 billion thats like 1 in a billion..

 

No. The methods of sutra take eons (?) to reach enlightenment. You also have to take into account that next to that, it is not easy to reach enlightenment, for example practicing an hour or two a day is nothing. And then besides that, we are also in Kali Yuga, which means it is even more difficult.