Is wing chun internal?

[Prince...]

Cool, the top school on my list is in Miami Gardens...so hopefully I'll be headed that way this time next year! I would love to hang out and talk sometime in person...

[mjjbecker]

good to read about your experiences about the pathgate. that is maybe why i stood away from it intuitively quite a while ago. good luck, man!

 

The class was at the university when I went. I'm hoping Young has no connections with the university now.

 

Good to follow the intuition! Saying that, you probably would have just walked away from him anyhow. Once was enough for me.

 

And good luck to you my friend .

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Seth Ananda]

I Like Wing Chun and plan to give it some time as an adjunct to my Yang Mian but I have some questions,

In melbourne most of the schools seem to be related to grandmaster William Cheung, student of Yip Man's. It seems good but I wouldn't know about their foot work... I also recently made friends with a German guy who teaches W.T. (Wind Tsun) and it seems to focus on much more sensitivity training, indeed when I spar with him if our arms meet, well when I think our arms should meet his arms are already gone (like they weren't there) and he is usally hitting me in the face or tapping my forehead indicating that he just got my Eyeball.

Does anybody know anything about the Differences or have Good advice on this subject.

Seth.

(Emin Bozteppe (W.T.) years ago challenged William Cheung and got him on the ground But I know as well even a Master can be surprised or make a Mistake.)

Thanks Again.

[joeblast]

good read

[林愛偉]

I Like Wing Chun and plan to give it some time as an adjunct to my Yang Mian but I have some questions,

In melbourne most of the schools seem to be related to grandmaster William Cheung, student of Yip Man's. It seems good but I wouldn't know about their foot work... I also recently made friends with a German guy who teaches W.T. (Wind Tsun) and it seems to focus on much more sensitivity training, indeed when I spar with him if our arms meet, well when I think our arms should meet his arms are already gone (like they weren't there) and he is usally hitting me in the face or tapping my forehead indicating that he just got my Eyeball.

Does anybody know anything about the Differences or have Good advice on this subject.

Seth.

(Emin Bozteppe (W.T.) years ago challenged William Cheung and got him on the ground But I know as well even a Master can be surprised or make a Mistake.)

Thanks Again.

 

 

Emin Boztepe never challenged William Cheung. He sucker punched him from the blind side of the peripheral

vision. Anyone getting hit like that will fall to the ground instantly. William Cheung never saw it coming, neither would almost anyone...

 

After the hit, Emin rushed William and while dazed and shocked, William only could cover himself from getting hit.

 

There was never a challenge made formal or informally. Only a walking from behind the man and sucker punching him in the face.

 

Terrible Terrible Terrible.

 

 

I highly doubt that Emin would win against William in a proper challenge, proper competition.

 

Not that I like William Cheung's Wing Chun. BUT a proper challenge is just proper.

Peace,

Lin

Edited August 11, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Seth Ananda]

From what I know, (or think I know) Emin gave him 3 seconds which he counted out before attacking William. Even the William Cheung students say that (as one said to me) but say that Emin did not win as they were both still fighting before being separated. Emin was sitting on William chain punching his face and William was lying on his back chain punching back. It didn't look good for William.

Any way Do you have any info on the differences good or bad between the two?

Thanks

Seth.

[mjjbecker]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.p...amp;postcount=1

 

[Prince...]

There is a video floating around the web showing that "confrontation." It was not pretty at all, that's all I'll say about it.

 

As far as William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun, I was told to stay away from it, only because there are differences between his stuff and our stuff and my teacher did not want me to get confused. I have heard good thing about Emin Boztepe's students. He has a wrestling background, I believe, so he teaches a lot of takedowns and some grappling when he does seminars.

 

I think the late Bernt Wagner was one of his students, I can't say anything for sensitivity and such from a youtube video, but that guy was fast! As far as developing external fighting skills, those guys will definately develop someone's hand speed!

[mjjbecker]

Nearly forgot. I saw a photograph back in the day of the pair of them facing off before the fight. Cheung was not sucker punched. He had warning and was unable to defend himself.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Seth,

 

Who do you do Yang Mian with i know 2 instructors of YM here in Sydney and a friend of mine does YM too!

 

I had a few of the YM students join my school a few years back its ok art, hows the turtle back (Gwai Bui) and Through arm (Yau Bei) coming along any power sounds yet?

 

WYG

[林愛偉]

Nearly forgot. I saw a photograph back in the day of the pair of them facing off before the fight. Cheung was not sucker punched. He had warning and was unable to defend himself.

 

 

They probably had other chances to meet up and challenge each other, but that one incident on the video,

doesn't show them face to face, never shows how they begin...only being charged and taken down.

 

Eh, I'm not concerned really. Not going to argue anymore because its not real Wing Chun anyway.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.p...amp;postcount=1

 

 

 

The letter on there actually was the minutes of a formal meeting of the heads of Wing Chun in Hong Kong. My Sifu has the original copy, and never gave it out to any martial arts magazine. Someone else must have had copies from another member at that meeting.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited August 11, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Seth Ananda]

Cool, any advice on what is a good style or one that has real foot work or that is 'real Wing Chun'? Sorry I'd use your name to ask but I don't know the Chinese Characters.

 

WYG, my teacher is named Tuan. Turtle back coming along slowly and thru arm seems to get constantly easier which is a relief as at first it nearly killed me. What M.A. do you do or teach? I think I read you say Cobra Ki Karate or something and somewhere else something about Shaolin forms. Is fun?

Seth.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Kool, yes im a black belt Cobra Kia instructor!

 

The turtle back is nice for its compression of the Dan Tian i know some that did so much that ended in heart problems for a while from the holding the breath in and not allowing it to come out so much. I guess too much of alot of external force can be bad for u if done wrong or misunderstood.

 

later

[Prince...]

Kool, yes im a black belt Cobra Kia instructor!

 

 

Did Someone Say COBRA KAI???

uFlQNtL8F9s

[steve]

Is wing chun a discipline that would compliment my taiji/yiquan and does it have the same subtle body affects?

Based on my experience training in Wing Chun, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji, I believe Wing Chun to be primarily an external art. I think that some Wing Chun teachers have recognized the benefits of internal training and supplemented their training with those methods. The chi sao in the video clip is clearly a blend of chi sao with push hands. Traditional chi sau is much more focused on striking then pushing. We've been seeing a number of Wing Chun players starting to compete in push hands events at our tournaments. They find the cross-over to be valuable in their chi sao and some of them do quite well at push hands, especially restricted step.

 

The three generally recognized internal arts have one thing in common - they strongly emphasize standing and/or moving meditation as a core focus in their training regimens - Xingyi=santishi, Bagua=circle walking, Taiji=slow meditative form, plus all involve additional standing and sitting meditation. This is not a fundamental core element of traditional Wing Chun training to my knowledge although all styles of martial art utilize meditation, posure, whole body power, etc... We did some neigong exercises and some standing and sitting meditation but it was a small component of the training, relatively speaking.

[mouse]

Based on my experience training in Wing Chun, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji, I believe Wing Chun to be primarily an external art. I think that some Wing Chun teachers have recognized the benefits of internal training and supplemented their training with those methods. The chi sao in the video clip is clearly a blend of chi sao with push hands. Traditional chi sau is much more focused on striking then pushing. We've been seeing a number of Wing Chun players starting to compete in push hands events at our tournaments. They find the cross-over to be valuable in their chi sao and some of them do quite well at push hands, especially restricted step.

 

The three generally recognized internal arts have one thing in common - they strongly emphasize standing and/or moving meditation as a core focus in their training regimens - Xingyi=santishi, Bagua=circle walking, Taiji=slow meditative form, plus all involve additional standing and sitting meditation. This is not a fundamental core element of traditional Wing Chun training to my knowledge although all styles of martial art utilize meditation, posure, whole body power, etc... We did some neigong exercises and some standing and sitting meditation but it was a small component of the training, relatively speaking.

 

 

Xuesheng,

 

I won't comment on Wing Chun further as I do not train in it.

 

As for moving meditation in internal arts. It is the point where you transcend the physical, I feel.

 

For Taiji, we do form as moving meditation to enter samadhi. Once in that state, fighting becomes natural and is in slow motion. Kind of like spiderman. Seeing energy is possible as well.

 

We do our form once for refining structure, alignment etc and another time for samadhi.

 

This aspect is lost and/or not understood in many schools.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[daoian]

internal simply has to do with whether you are using muscles to do a job or you are calling chi to flow to accomplish the job. One is universal. the other is contrived. BUT you must know how to use chi to be able to tell the difference... otherwise... this is just theoretics and symantics.

 

Another way to put it is, is the movement coming from muscles or the organs? But you do really have to experience it to understand it.

[林愛偉]

Internal or external, you will be using your muscles regardless. Its only called internal because of the utilizing of the joints, and positioning, the cultivation of mind and strengthening of the organs. External only refers to the use of full out muscular force over anything else. Strengthening the muscles, hardening them to take blows...this is all external.

 

In the end, if your body has been well cultivated in mind and in form, then you have succeeded in both internal and external. There is no real difference at that level, and all movements all attacks and defenses will be done with a body transformed, so using muscles isn't using muscles, its using the whole body properly cultivated.

 

That is Taiji of Taiji Quan, That is Bagua of Bagua Zhang, Xin Yi of Xin Yi Quan, and truthfully, Wing Chun, but people get caught up in the quick fix fighter mentality and the great majority are terrible at it regardless of Wing Chun's practicality.

 

So before all this internal, external talk becomes more talk, getting to actually understand those terms is most helpful.

 

内功= inner strength. 外功= outer strength. 气功= breath strength. Inner Strength means cultivating the tendons, muscles, bones, joints and positioning, as well as strengthening the organs and their functions. One must have a still mind to succeed. Outer Strength relies solely on momentum and body conditioning for muscular strength. Qi Gong= Breath Strength, is a generic term for energetic cultivation utilizing breath, mind and body. Qi and Nei are terms referring to cultivating breath to strengthen body.

 

When fighting, if your inner strength is well developed, then your body, muscles and all, would have been transformed to a meaning of being able to take hits naturally, hit and have explosive force naturally without utilizing too much muscular use.

 

Over all, there will be muscular use in any of the internal arts. If there wasn't any muscular use, how would you keep your body moving, standing.. haha

 

The principle is to utilize form and structure to maximize force and substance without using more than you need. That means enough, not less, not more...We say in Taiji Quan "Invest in Loss", said by Grandmaster Zheng Man Qing. It refers to just enough. when you need to use less, use less, but that less is still enough to overcome the oncoming force.

 

One can cultivate for internal strength. AND whatever method they use to hit someone will carry the force of their internal cultivation. So one can practice Wushu, and all the hard Shaolin fist styles, but cultivate Neigong, and learn to move properly in their forms and applications, then their hits and root would be well developed and they will have their internal force present and exerted when they hit someone, or if they are hit...if hit they would have protection.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited August 12, 2008 by 林愛偉

[daoian]

Internal or external, you will be using your muscles regardless. Its only called internal because of the utilizing of the joints, and positioning,

 

内功= inner strength. 外功= outer strength. 气功= breath strength. Inner Strength means cultivating the tendons, muscles, bones, joints and positioning, as well as strengthening the organs and their functions.

 

shim qi is core organ energy. nei qi is prana... or breath chi. wei chi is everything from the skin to the bones joints and tendons. This is a common issue and point of view departure ... BUT its all about yin and yang. to someone standing on the street, the living room is INTERNAL. if that person stands in the living room, the bedroom becomes INTERNAL. To someone laying in bed with a woman, we... we all know what internal means by now.

[Prince...]

Thanks for this Lin... I'm gonna get laughed at, but I would love to do Wushu more than anything. I love to compete, and I love the athleticism that it involves.

 

But I also value the little bit of meditation that I know...I often wondered what will happen if the two are combined.

[mouse]

Thanks for this Lin... I'm gonna get laughed at, but I would love to do Wushu more than anything. I love to compete, and I love the athleticism that it involves.

 

But I also value the little bit of meditation that I know...I often wondered what will happen if the two are combined.

 

 

Prince,

 

Wushu is flowery. Nice to look at but lacks substance. Many effective martials arts are very simple to look at but are so direct and efficient that they look "boring".

 

Many wushu guys have knee reconstruction as well if thats what you're after. The angles they achieve for asthetics are at the expense of their health.

 

Please reconsider.

 

Enjoy your practice.

 

mouse

[Mal]

Different strokes for different folks, it's all about what you want and not everyone wants to fight.

 

I remember talking to a good Karate practitioner a few years back. I had an encounter with some trouble makers outside my dads house. He said "Don't ever ask me to help you in a fight" I was astounded because my focus is purely on defending myself. He was only interested in winning competitions.

 

Wushu is spectacular, and a good choice if you want to look like the movies or for competing internationally.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are NOT competition orientated or pretty to look at

 

Although mouse makes a good point about injuries. I feel a good martial art should enhance your health, not make you unable to walk at 40

 

(edit) Actually after seeing some young Chinese people doing wushu last night you might want to start practicing before puberty and be genetically gifted to compete internationally

 

I hear some karate forms competitions are getting more acrobatic, with gymnastics coaches being employed to add that bit of extra "wow factor", (if the weapons with flashing lights weren't enough.)

 

And since it's the Olympics you could always do TKD.

[Martial Development]

There is no such thing as "internal martial arts"...

 

...but so long as we are pretending, I'll share the real-life conversation that one of Leung Sheung's disciples kindly reported to me.

 

Student: Is Wing Chun an "internal family" art?

Yip Man: No.

 

[林愛偉]

There is no such thing as "internal martial arts"...

 

...but so long as we are pretending, I'll share the real-life conversation that one of Leung Sheung's disciples kindly reported to me.

 

Student: Is Wing Chun an "internal family" art?

Yip Man: No.

 

 

 

haha That's nice. From what I have experienced it as...yes. Yip Man is older in it then I am, and my Sigung's teacher. But I will take my experience as first hand word.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Prince...]

Wushu is flowery. Nice to look at but lacks substance. Many effective martials arts are very simple to look at but are so direct and efficient that they look "boring".

 

I never responded to this and not sure how I managed to dig this up...but I used to take my Wing Chun classes at one of the top Wushu & Performance Tai Chi schools in Southern California. I know Wushu is flowery, but I liked the few classes that I took. Also, they do teach combat applications and do some sanshou. They say if you don't know how to properly apply the moves, then the choreography won't be believable in competitions.

 

Wushu is spectacular, and a good choice if you want to look like the movies or for competing internationally.

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are NOT competition orientated or pretty to look at

 

Although mouse makes a good point about injuries. I feel a good martial art should enhance your health, not make you unable to walk at 40

 

(edit) Actually after seeing some young Chinese people doing wushu last night you might want to start practicing before puberty and be genetically gifted to compete internationally

 

I'm not sure what qualifies as being genetically gifted, but one of the senior students at my old school began Wushu at 38. He is around 43 now and has placed in competitions. I've seen him do backflips and splits across the studio. As for me, I could dunk a basketball at 15 when I was 5-5. I'm almost 30 and don't have those kind of hops, but I can still jump pretty high. I'm not interested in fighting that much, I just like something that looks cool and gives a good workout.