Daniel

Who or what is "satan"?

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16 minutes ago, Daniel said:

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Friend,  who or what is satan?  Do you know?  Have you ever conversed with any satanists?

Oh there are loads of them. Well, not really, but literally every village has that one dude who looks like a serial killer, hates everything Christian and worships the old gods. Not that the old gods are any more satanic then OT god tho

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IMG_2522.thumb.jpeg.10e54bd5aeaf265e5fd116ba4c8cab06.jpeg

this is Varg Vigernes. He is a satanist and a murderer. He burned down one of Norways iconic stav-churchers. This one:

IMG_2524.jpeg.e18f746ddd2b5e1c67368ab37d84ad8f.jpeg
its a replica of one made in 1170, build in pagan temple style, so kind of ironic.

 

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2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Oh there are loads of them.

 

Yes!!!!!

 

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Well, not really,

 

Yes really!

 

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

but literally every village has that one dude who looks like a serial killer, hates everything Christian and worships the old gods.

 

That's not satan.  His name is Tim.

 

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Not that the old gods are any more satanic then OT god tho

 

Right.  Tim's a good dude.

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2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

(Sorry, couldnt resist)

 

{HUGS}

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2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

IMG_2522.thumb.jpeg.10e54bd5aeaf265e5fd116ba4c8cab06.jpeg

this is Varg Vigernes. He is a satanist and a murderer. He burned down one of Norways iconic stav-churchers. This one:

IMG_2524.jpeg.e18f746ddd2b5e1c67368ab37d84ad8f.jpeg
its a replica of one made in 1170, build in pagan temple style, so kind of ironic.

 

 

OK Good.  That's maybe a good example.  

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4 hours ago, Daniel said:

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Do you want to discuss this?

Sure. The problem is that I dont find any objectivity in good and evil, I find it arbitrary. Does not mean that I dont operate with the concepts, but thats all there is, imo. From the perspective of a… tuna, rape isnt wrong, right. But go ahead and tell me what you think. Who is satan? And why is satan? 

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It's believed that "Satan" the adversary came about when the Jews were in exile in Persia and came into contact with Zoroastrianism with the dual good and evils gods. 

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19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

It's believed that "Satan" the adversary came about when the Jews were in exile in Persia and came into contact with Zoroastrianism with the dual good and evils gods. 

Mhm Ive heard similar claims. There is also the reccuring pattern of demonizing the out groups deity. But im curious. God is often discussed, satan not so much. Maybe my cultural background gives me a perception of satan that does not correspond to the jewish perspective. Maybe the binary good/bad is more nuanced. What on earth is going on in Job for instance?

 

I think if I had to define a «devil» figure, it would represent chaos, the unnatural. Entropy.

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Apperantly both hex and witch (and wicca) stems from PIE *weik, meaning to change or bend. Not until christianity came along did it become something demonic, it seems. At least not to the same degree. Female healers and virgins and seers seems to have been a custom troughout pagan Europe.
 

2 numbers 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

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2 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Apperantly both hex and witch (and wicca) stems from PIE *weik, meaning to change or bend. Not until christianity came along did it become something demonic, it seems. At least not to the same degree. Female healers and virgins and seers seems to have been a custom troughout pagan Europe.
 

2 numbers 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

That's because Christianity is dualistic and exclusive. 

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29 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Female healers and virgins and seers seems to have been a custom troughout pagan Europe.

Just a little curiousity. St. Lucia is celebrated at 13th desember in Italy, and in… scandinavia, seemingly lacking elsewhere in Europe. Lucia comes from latin lux, meaning light. In the Julian calender, the 13th desember was belived to be the darkest night of the year. Legends of women going around checking If people have preparer for christmas, and either showering them with gifts or punishing them If they fail to do so, are found all across Europe (frau holda, lussi, baba yaga). Notice the similarity between Lussi and Lucia btw. She takes one of two forms: either demonic, ugly, devil like, child eating witch, or a friendly women dressed in white carrying a light.

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I noticed that even though the topic is about Satan, there is a lot of talk about witches. I thought I would point out that witchcraft and satanism are not the same thing. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I noticed that even though the topic is about Satan, there is a lot of talk about witches. I thought I would point out that witchcraft and satanism are not the same thing. 

Haha youre right. My thoughts related to the tendacy to demonize. Beelzepub means lord of shit and was probally the god of the philistines. Greek daimon and english demon has very different conotations. Point is that things that were common, even good, has been changed or morphed into something satanic. And what is satan If not evil personofied?

Edited by NaturaNaturans

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2 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Haha youre right. My thoughts related to the tendacy to demonize. Beelzepub means lord of shit and was probally the god of the philistines. Greek daimon and english demon has very different conotations. Point is that things that were common, even good, has been changed or morphed into something satanic.

 

The original question is "who or what is Satan". My question would be "who's Satan are we talking about"? Different traditions have different versions of Satan. 

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Just now, Maddie said:

 

The original question is "who or what is Satan". My question would be "who's Satan are we talking about"? Different traditions have different versions of Satan. 

I feel pretty confident we are talking about it in a Christian or jewish context. He is barley mentioned in the bible. His names means advisary. Mentioned tree times in OT. In NT he seems to become a force of his own, «the god of this world.»

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1 minute ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I feel pretty confident we are talking about it in a Christian or jewish context. He is barley mentioned in the bible. His names means advisary. Mentioned tree times in OT. In NT he seems to become a force of his own, «the god of this world.»

 

Even the Jewish and Christian Satan are quite different. The Jewish version is more like the official tester designed by God to see if you are going to do right. Whereas in Christianity he rebelled against God and is in direct opposition to him. 

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Posted (edited)

academic discussion about evil and some of its forms is just that academic...but if one has first hand experience with evil beings in the astral or with astral evil making influential or harmful forays into the physical world of humanity then we are in down to the brass tacks!  Btw. I'd say evil and or hell are not eternal and which is depicted in the Tibetan Buddhist Wheel of  life.

 

Edited by old3bob

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6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

academic discussion about evil and some of its forms is just that academic...but if one has first hand experience with evil beings in the astral or with astral evil making influential or harmful forays into the physical world of humanity then we are in down to the brass tacks!  Btw. I'd say evil and or hell are not eternal and which is depicted in the Tibetan Buddhist Wheel of  life.

 

Maybe, but how do you suggest we discuss it based on someones experience on the astral plane?

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9 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Maybe, but how do you suggest we discuss it based on someones experience on the astral plane?

 

very carefully,  and the saying that,  "it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness" has its place.  I'm no expert and know it.

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Just now, old3bob said:

 

very carefully,  and the saying that,  "it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness" has its place.  I'm no expert and know it.

But that is kind of the issue.. for me at least, saying «dont go there, there are ghosts there,» does not cut it. I am even open to the possibility of spirits, but.. 

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8 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

But that is kind of the issue.. for me at least, saying «dont go there, there are ghosts there,» does not cut it. I am even open to the possibility of spirits, but.. 

 

curiosity can kill a cat,  

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