What are the moral precepts of your tradition?

[S:C]

Just wanted to clearly state that to me these questions are of purely educational interest.
The need to state this again seems because while logging in, it seems the thread with the forum rules just pops up all so often lately.

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[S:C]

52 minutes ago, C T said:

Each strand is equally vital to the holistic development of a sound Buddhist  practitioner. 

 

Sila, or Virtue, derives from Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood. 

 

Samadhi, meditative equipoise, derives from Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. 

 

Prajna/panna, wisdom, arises from Right View and Right Intention. 

This is very complex and interesting. I am still trying to wrap my head around an example, would you have any particular in mind?

Like is there a text that explains the connection with an example? 
 

Edit: 

Deducting from the quote by Ajahn Khamjan:

So morals then would be virtue/sila, but in considering a decision for an action one would have to ‚detach‘ first from it emotionally to get to a Birds Eye of view and then consider also prajna/wisdom through previous experiences one has lived through or probabilities? Is this getting close or is it far from it? Did he write this in a book with examples maybe?

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat
Questions

[S:C]

22 minutes ago, old3bob said:

if one is fully enlightened they are a living precept so to speak and no longer need reminders (by rote) of situationally and time proven ones in writing, while everyone else can still benefit from or need practice with them...

So what you mean by this is that you try to be in the presence of ‚fully enlightened beings‘ as to see their moral values and copy them? Or did I get that wrong? I am a bit confused now, sorry.

[steve]

48 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Interesting, thanks for sharing! 

Would you be willing to share the precepts of Bön?

 

On the sutric path, Bön speaks of the ten non-virtuous actions to avoid and ten virtuous actions to pursue. They are basically the same as in Buddhism.

 

Ten non-virtuous actions:

Three of the body:

- taking a life

- stealing 

- sexual misconduct 

Four of the speech:

- telling lies

- deliberately causing problems between friends

- harsh language

- gossip

Three of the mind:

- negative thoughts

- harmful thoughts towards others

- wrong views toward the teachings

 

The ten virtuous actions are basically the opposite of these.

- avoid taking another’s life

- practice generosity

- practice moral discipline

- speak the truth and avoid lies

- try to bring friends together 

- speak peacefully and calmly

- engage in practice rather than gossip

- be mindful

- avoid evil thoughts toward others

- be free from wrong views about the teachings

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, steve said:

On the sutric path, Bön speaks of the ten non-virtuous actions to avoid and ten virtuous actions to pursue. They are basically the same as in Buddhism.

That is what cultivation of the mind is all about. It takes lots of effort and discipline to avoid the ten non-virtuous actions; and to pursue ten virtuous actions. The mind has to be very clear and strong to take control of all these kind of restrictions.

Edited January 29, 2023 by ChiDragon

[S:C]

1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

regarding morality, I think that in my past, when I broke these rules, I am paying for them now

I am sorry to hear that you feel like this and hope you will find a way to equilibrium, serenity and away from nightmares and troubles. Thanks for sharing your view!

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

So what you mean by this is that you try to be in the presence of ‚fully enlightened beings‘ as to see their moral values and copy them? Or did I get that wrong? I am a bit confused now, sorry.

 

trying to copy someone per-se could turn into a problematic slippery slope but seeing dharmic principles in action could bring about one's own understanding and variation of same...being around enlightened beings could be very helpful although roses also have thorns if one is not  prepared as far as possible. (or even if one is)

Edited January 29, 2023 by old3bob

[S:C]

21 minutes ago, old3bob said:

seeing dharmic principles in action could bring about one's own understanding and variation of same...

Dharmic principles as in the Indian - rather Hindu - than Buddhist sense of the word? 
 

From what I gather “dharma” in that sense gives each living being its own set of tasks. And how well the humble individual being solves those with its means given has consequences due cause and effect relations? So the rules apply  not for everyone in the same way but depending on previous karma?   

Is that what you meant?

What are the guidelines then or aren’t there any? When would one detect to be on a “slippery slope”?

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[old3bob]

finding one's own truths on these matters matters more...I will say that I meant Dharma in a more universal way although many teachings say it has many aspects as you are apparently implying.  Btw I'd add present and state of being to the import of application of  laws or rules to "previous".

[S:C]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

that I meant Dharma in a more universal way

Feel free to elaborate on the word and meaning! And thanks for clarifying!

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

Everybody is invited to share the moral precepts of the tradition, lineage, group or values one is following!

 

Not the only document or practice  about it but a central one in the main central initiation  ( and previously published,  so not part of the 'secret tradition'  - there are other ones that are part of that but they are more specific )

 

Liber LIbrae - The Book of the Balance .

 

0. Learn first—Oh thou who aspirest unto our ancient Order!—that Equilibrium is the basis of the Work. If thou thyself hast not a sure foundation, whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of Nature?

1. Know then, that as man is born into this world amidst the Darkness of Matter, and the strife of contending forces; so must his first endeavor be to seek the Light through their reconciliation.

2. Thou then who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light.

3. How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou purge thy soul from the dross of earth?

Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.

4. Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely, hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?

5. Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much has learned his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool, than of him.

6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?

7. Thou therefore who desirest Magical Gifts, be sure that thy soul is firm and steadfast; for it is by flattering thy weaknesses that the Weak Ones will gain power over thee. Humble thyself before thy Self, yet fear neither man nor spirit. Fear is failure, and the forerunner of failure: and courage is the beginning of virtue.

8. Therefore fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock or revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be led to error.

9. A man is what he maketh himself within the limits fixed by his inherited destiny; he is a part of mankind; his actions affect not only what he called himself, but also the whole universe.

10. Worship and neglect not, the physical body which is thy temporary connection with the outer and material world. Therefore let thy mental Equilibrium be above disturbance by material events; strengthen and control the animal passions, discipline the emotions and the reason, nourish the Higher Aspirations.

11. Do good to others for its own sake, not for reward, not for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude.

12. Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself.

13. True ritual is as much action as word; it is Will.

14. Remember that this earth is but an atom in the universe, and that thou thyself art but an atom thereon, and that even couldst thou become the God of this earth whereon thou crawlest and grovellest, that thou wouldst, even then, be but an atom, and one amongst many.

15. Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices.

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?

18. Therefore as hath already been said, Establish thyself firmly in the equilibrium of forces, in the centre of the Cross of the Elements, that Cross from whoses centre the Creative Word issued in the birth of the dawning Universe.

19. Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.

20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee.

21. In true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme YHVH and in Osiris YHShVH. Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!

 

 

9 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

It would be nice, if you could name the direction, where you come from (so whether you follow one of the main religious branches or whether you are following the values of a smaller religious group or sect or whether you have set your own set of values for youself and how you deal with other minded people).

 

   I follow a main tradition modified by the specific group manifestation of that and further modified by my own practice observation and results .   

 

 

 

9 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

 

 

 

Feel free to refer to philosophers or scientists also, if that is your basis.

Of special interest would be, whether you have the opinion that those values you follow are truth-apt (not sure about the use of that word, what I mean is, whether those are accessible via proof or reason, so not purely subjective) and if yes, how you would do that.

 

Yes it is . Evidenced by  practice , observation and results .   " Let success be thy proof . "

 

 

9 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

The idea is a collection of the moral principles or rules that are represented here as well as in the world and the ability to attribute those towards the associated (religious or spiritual) branch for educational purposes. Feel free to enhance your list or portrayal with pictures or music, but please refrain from critic, if possible. I'd be glad to hear from you. Thanks!

 

 

This is like the idea behind one of my projects ; tracking teachings backwards through history ; all Levintine , Abrahamic and Dharmic religions seem to come from one source . they had important valuable and practical teachings that got dressed in layers of tradition, variant culture, personalities , politics , and 'trappings'  ( great word that ! ) of religion. I have been researching and tracking them back to origins and the reason why they developed and what those practices led to . Then I look at the essential   core of them and extract simple practices  without the 'trappings' that are easy for practice , for anyone basically .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

Thanks for sharing, @Maddie! Just to clarify: how would you or the Buddhist in you react when a (non-buddhist or a buddhist with wrong/delusional views) bandit or the government would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right?

 

The you quickly abandon your simple dualistic views   

 

 

8 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

Would that fall under the first general rule?

What I am referring to is a situation for example, when the you would be forced to either react against the perpetrator or someone innocent and doing nothing would lead to your own demise? Accept this then I suppose, am I right? But it would be hurting oneself, no?

 

(Genuine question!)

 

 and an age old moral one !

 

8 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

With the moral precepts of Buddhism in general you are referring to the 'eight precepts', I suppose? Would someone who follows those be able to give a good example, - there seem to be so many translations. Is the following a correct representation?

 

 

Aren't there also differences between the different Buddhist branches? Theravadan, Mahayana, Vajrayana and so on? They all use the same precepts or different ones?

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

The eight precepts are a step above the five precepts. For everybody there's the five precepts and if someone goes on a retreat then they take the eight precepts which are a bit extra.

 

1. Don't kill 

2. Don't steal 

3. No sexual misconduct

4. No wrong speech 

5. No intoxicants 

 

I think the precepts are the same for all branches of Buddhism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is  'sexual misconduct ' ?   Having sex with someone else's wife ?  NOT having sex with your husband ? Getting 'kinky' ? Having ANY sex at all ( for a monk )  ? 

 

For me , it is any sex that goes against the vows I made when I dedicated and consecrated my  various chakras to their specific functions .

Edited January 29, 2023 by Nungali

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

What is  'sexual misconduct ' ?   Having sex with someone else's wife ?  NOT having sex with your husband ? Getting 'kinky' ? Having ANY sex at all ( for a monk )  ? 

 

As the Buddha defined it for a lay person there's a couple definitions.

 

First is not to cheat on your partner.

 

Second is not to have sex with anyone under the protection of their parents which I guess these days would be translated as don't have sex with minors.

 

Non-consensual sex would not be allowed either.

[Nungali]

here is another set, from another 'non-Dharmic' source ;

 

Spell 125  ; 

'The Laws of Ma'at. '

 

1- I have not committed sin

2- I have not committed robbery with violence

3- I have not stolen

4- I have not slain men and women

5- I have not stolen food

6- I have not swindled offerings

7- I have not stolen from God

8- I have not told lies

9- I have not carried away food

10- I have not cursed

11- I have not closed my ears to truth

12- I have not committed adultery

13- I have not made anyone cry

14- I have not felt sorrow without reason

15- I have not assaulted anyone

16- I am not deceitful

17- I have not stolen anyone’s land

18- I have not been an eavesdropper

19- I have not falsely accused anyone

20- I have not been angry without reason

21- I have not seduced anyone’s wife

22- I have not polluted myself

23- I have not terrorized anyone

24- I have not disobeyed the law

25- I have not been excessively angry

26- I have not cursed God

27- I have not behaved with violence

28- I have not caused disruption of peace

29- I have not acted hastily or without thought

30- I have not overstepped my boundaries of concern

31- I have not exaggerated my words when speaking

32- I have not worked evil

33- I have not used evil thoughts, words or deeds

34- I have not polluted the water

35- I have not spoken angrily or arrogantly

36- I have not cursed anyone in thought, word or deed

37- I have not placed myself on a pedestal

38- I have not stolen that which belongs to God

39- I have not stolen from or disrespected the deceased

40- I have not taken food from a child

41- I have not acted with insolence

42- I have not destroyed property belonging to God

 

 

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

As the Buddha defined it for a lay person there's a couple definitions.

 

First is not to cheat on your partner.

 

Second is not to have sex with anyone under the protection of their parents which I guess these days would be translated as don't have sex with minors.

 

Non-consensual sex would not be allowed either.

 

I staunchly affirm 2 and 3 .   Not sure what 1 implies  .... 'cheating' I guess means  being dishonest about it . Unless there is a precept against 'open relationships'   ?

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

I staunchly affirm 2 and 3 .   Not sure what 1 implies  .... 'cheating' I guess means  being dishonest about it . Unless there is a precept against 'open relationships'   ?

 

Well cheating means breaking the rules so if monogamy is expected and one word to stray outside of that dishonestly that would be included.

 

If the relationships open then those are the rules and no one's cheating.

[S:C]

On 29.1.2023 at 11:29 PM, Nungali said:

The you quickly abandon your simple dualistic views   

I did, didn’t I? I‘m not sure I understand what I did here.

 

Once again, thank you, those further two lists were interesting! 
 

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is it that makes a precept moral? 
Relations to a higher power?

What is it that gives some decisions the quality of immorality even if they are based on values, like for example autonomy if set as an absolute?

 

 

And please, could anyone explain „Dharma“ in more detail? @old3bob or anyone? I seem to be missing out on something valuable here…

[S:C]

On 29.1.2023 at 11:26 PM, Nungali said:

This is like the idea behind one of my projects ; tracking teachings backwards through history

If you look for „the secret teachings of all ages“ you might have known that someone from your ‚brotherhood‘ Mr. Hall, I believe, has done that already a few years back, but I cannot comment on the quality,  I stay away of brotherhoods and their papertrails, makes me nervous, but it might be of interest to you.

 

Still, I wonder how we came there from the question of morals. Strange… probably I just consider „brotherhoods“ and cults immoral, maybe because of the hierarchy of power. and because they seem to always interpret higher laws to their advantage, am I wrong here?

Edited January 31, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[S:C]

On 29.1.2023 at 11:26 PM, Nungali said:

. Evidenced by  practice , observation and results .   " Let success be thy proof

What you mean is, you don’t feel the ‚karmic backlash‘, that is experienced on the emotional level (as remorse, different causal chains thereafter, nightmares etc.) as the effects going against the perceived moral precepts? Or am I wrong here?

 

[S:C]

Sad, there is still no abrahamic precept list… what do you mean by Levintine? Where does it belong to? Please pardon my ignorance!

[Nungali]

50 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

I did, didn’t I? I‘m not sure I understand what I did here.

 

Once again, thank you, those further two lists were interesting! 
 

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is it that makes a precept moral? 

 

The will of the people of the particular culture in question ,  or their  ruling class .

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Relations to a higher power?

 

Yes  -   so they ( the people mentioned above )   affirm .

 

 

50 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

What is it that gives some decisions the quality of immorality even if they are based on values, like for example autonomy if set as an absolute?

 

Well, I'm supposing its the same ; 'immorality' comers from the same process as 'morality' , doesnt it ?

 

50 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

And please, could anyone explain „Dharma“ in more detail? @old3bob or anyone? I seem to be missing out on something valuable here…

 

Its a concept used in different ways by different paths .

 

Generally , its the same principle and concept as the Egyptian Ma'at  ( cited above )  ; that force which maintains the Cosmic Order and also, that force which society ( should be ) modeled on .

 

Individually its about 'your path' , 'True Will, 'Khavaranah' .... the reason you came here , the 'work' you want to do in this incarnation and how that fits in with the 'Greater Will' or Dharma . ... and the boons and restrictions around that pathway . .... the circumference of your field of potential .

 

Since my studies are mostly around  the  'proto' form of these religions , I like to look at the etymology of a word :

 

 

 

*dher- 

 

Proto-Indo-European root meaning "to hold firmly, support." 

It forms all or part of: affirm; confirm; Darius; dharma; farm; fermata; firm (adj.); firm (n.); firmament; furl; infirm; infirmary; terra firma; throne.

It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit dharmah "custom, statute, law," dharayati "holds;" Prakrit dharaṇa "a holding firm;" Iranian dāra‑ "holding;" Greek thronos "seat;" Latin firmus "strong, steadfast, enduring, stable;" Lithuanian diržnas "strong;" Welsh dir "hard," Breton dir "steel."

 

Basically it is ' law' .  But we have to remember  society was very different in the past , little distinction between 'law' , religion and other concepts . 'Religion' as it is today is a recent concept .  Eg . many older cultures, in their language, their name for what we call  their 'religion' , translates literally as 'law' . 

 

And of course, with different religions and different interpretations within a single religion .... we are back to square 1     :

 

' The will of the people of the particular culture in question ,  or their  ruling class .'

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

If you look for „the secret teachings of all ages“

 

I had that as a teenager ....  and even then I knew it was extremely 'dated'   and clearly the work of a researcher and not a practitioner .

 

Loved the illustrations though ... he did good work as far as 'compendiums' go .

 

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

you might have known that someone from your ‚brotherhood‘ Mr. Hall,

 

I am in Manly Hall's brotherhood ???   - I never knew that !

 

How did you find out ?

 

 

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

I believe, has done that already a few years back, but I cannot comment on the quality,  I stay away of brotherhoods and their papertrails, makes me nervous, but it might be of interest to you.

 

Its very old fashioned and Christian based . I am basing my work on  studies of Cultural Anthropology and Comparative Religion ( studies I started at University over 40 years ago ) plus modern research into human movements, migrations, history  from paleolithic to late Bronze Age  - genetic studies ,  etc .  A LOT of that was unavailable to those post Victorian occult Christians  - very old fashioned stuff .

 

 

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

Still, I wonder how we came there from the question of morals.

 

 

I find that one hard to understand from the form of the question and the syntax  ?  How 'people' ( ? )  .... 'came there'  ( ? )  morally  ?

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

Strange… probably I just consider „brotherhoods“ and cults immoral, maybe because of the hierarchy of power. and because they seem to always interpret higher laws to their advantage, am I wrong here?

 

I would say you are right ... except for the 'always' .  But people generally, their societies and the laws  also do that . Everything is actually geared to our  (generally ) , or our groups our our (individual) advantage .

 

Of course you realize that temples, monasteries, religions and sects do that too    .

 

Even the Baha'is, who acknowledge the 9 'world religions' and see them as all valid, and its good that people belong to them  .... but really.... better to become a Baha'i  .... unless you dont want to , of course  .... but Baha'i has the advantage of  .... ( and so on )   

 

I do know of one system  however  that didnt do that .

[S:C]

26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The will of the people of the particular culture in question ,  or their  ruling class .'

It still feels like disillusionment. 
 

What is your opinion on Dharma, if I may ask? Do you believe it exists but doesn’t give us objective precepts or only shows us by consequences?

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

what is it that makes a precept moral? 

 

My understanding of reading the Buddhist sutras is that what makes a precept or any action moral or not is whether or not it does or does not bring a being suffering.