Vajrayana Discussion

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

what 'vajra' itself means - and why this path is specifically named thus.

thats a great place to start.  'vajra' is a weapon and the path's goal was kill demons with that weapon (the path being a religion). Thats about it.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats a great place to start.  'vajra' is a weapon and the path's goal was kill demons with that weapon (the path being a religion). Thats about it.

 

The Tibetan for vajra is Dorje which means literally 'Lord's stone' i.e. diamond.  Hence the vajra is both a (thunderbolt) weapon and a diamond.  It is also in some tantric texts the male and female organs.

 

That's more about it.

[Cobie]

.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

PS. I looked up David Verdesi and I have to say any connection with him would be a black mark in my book.

 

Yet the Dalai Lama both trained him and asked him to write a book detailing the Lukhang Temple murals, where the actual energetic methods so many "Lamas" refuse to teach are . Funny he that doesn't have a black mark over Ian  

 

Come on, that's a total strawman   I'm not a fan of Verdesi, but lets call it as it is

 

The issue isn't what type of a person David is. Because this isn't about David. But to cast a bit of light on things

 

Anyone engaging in energetics is going to become more of what they are unless they are dealing with the mind in a balanced manner at the least. This is what I observe in David. A casualty of too much of the path of addition, not enough of the path of subtraction.

 

However, in Ian's case being close to someone and having access to real teachers instead  of cosplayers. That's actually something that's needed and rare.

 

Unless of course you want to spend your time jumping through the various obstacle courses they design

 

If you didnt see this post

 

 

Quote

I knew of a teacher for whom financial independence was one of the main prerequisites to being accepted into the school. 
 

He charged an incredible amount for an introduction (the price of a nice, new German-made car) - but would teach for free once you’re accepted. 

 

But there's a second point here. Almost everyone has someone they associate/associated with who treats them one way and another person differently. To say otherwise would be dishonest

 

But hey, if you want to pigeonhole a person based on an association  Who am I to stand in the way of it

Edited January 15, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Apech]

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Yet the Dalai Lama both trained him and asked him to write a book detailing the Lukhang Temple murals, where the actual energetic methods so many "Lamas" refuse to teach are . Funny he that doesn't have a black mark over Ian  

 

He used Baker as an academic to write a book - maybe that's an endorsment I don't know.

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Come on, that's a total strawman   I'm not a fan of Verdesi, but lets call it as it is

 

What is? I don't understand.

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

The issue isn't what type of a person David is. Because this isn't about David. But to cast a bit of light on things

 

Anyone engaging in energetics is going to become more of what they are unless they are dealing with the mind in a balanced manner at the least. This is what I observe in David. A casualty of too much of the path of addition, not enough of the path of subtraction.

 

Well, I think, it matters a great deal what kind of person teaches energy work and so on.  The impression I got from here:

 

https://core.live/luminaries/david-verdesi

 

I found a bit cringe to be honest.  But I only say this for myself - caveat emptor for everyone else.

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

However, in Ian's case being close to someone and having access to real teachers instead  of cosplayers. That's actually something that's needed and rare.

 

Unless of course you want to spend your time jumping through the various obstacle courses they design

 

If you didnt see this post

 

 

 

But there's a second point here. Almost everyone has someone they associate/associated with who treats them one way and another person differently. To say otherwise would be dishonest

 

But hey, if you want to pigeonhole a person based on an association  Who am I to stand in the way of it

 

You brought up the connection which I wasn't aware of - so I looked into it, nothing more.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

He used Baker as an academic to write a book - maybe that's an endorsment I don't know.

 

 

What is? I don't understand.

 

 

Well, I think, it matters a great deal what kind of person teaches energy work and so on.  The impression I got from here:

 

https://core.live/luminaries/david-verdesi

 

I found a bit cringe to be honest.  But I only say this for myself - caveat emptor for everyone else.

 

 

You brought up the connection which I wasn't aware of - so I looked into it, nothing more.

 

 

 

I mean its a strawman to "black mark" someone (Ian) because of who they associate with. Ians about as decent as they come in my experience

 

I agree totally that Verdesi is rather unethical. I've said it multiple times

 

But that  doesn't change that hes probably the person to go to if you want fast access to high level teachers.

 

Im not talking about human spark plugs either , hes found people way above and beyond that.

 

Sure you'll pay through the nose for it, but that's a pretty universal experience in most cases

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

But that  doesn't change that hes probably the person to go to if you want fast access to high level teachers.

umm you probably missed that scandal when his access to Wang Liping turned out to be a fraud scheme

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

The Tibetan for vajra is Dorje which means literally 'Lord's stone' i.e. diamond.  Hence the vajra is both a (thunderbolt) weapon and a diamond

Apech you are a highly educated man. How can the same 4  letter word mean both a diamond and a thunderbolt and a weapon? Come on.

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

umm you probably missed that scandal when his access to Wang Liping turned out to be a fraud scheme

 

No I didnt miss anything .Im well aware of his antics with Wang Liping, John Chang, Jiang Feng, and others

 

I also have his lectures from when he was delivering seminars with Wang Liping...Several of them in fact

[Apech]

59 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I mean its a strawman to "black mark" someone (Ian) because of who they associate with. Ians about as decent as they come in my experience

 

I agree totally that Verdesi is rather unethical. I've said it multiple times

 

But that  doesn't change that hes probably the person to go to if you want fast access to high level teachers.

 

Im not talking about human spark plugs either , hes found people way above and beyond that.

 

Sure you'll pay through the nose for it, but that's a pretty universal experience in most cases

 

 

 

 

 

But you said they were joined at the hip.  But nevermind it's not really important.  Each to his own.

[steve]

22 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Apech you are a highly educated man. How can the same 4  letter word mean both a diamond and a thunderbolt and a weapon? Come on.

 

Sorry to intrude like this but you are also highly educated and a scholar, if I'm not mistaken. 

Do you maintain that each and every word in every language has a single unique and exclusive meaning?

 

PS  - རྡོ་རྗེ is two letters, not four, as is वज्र

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Apech you are a highly educated man. How can the same 4  letter word mean both a diamond and a thunderbolt and a weapon? Come on.

 

I'm educated enough to know that vajra has five letters.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

Just now, Apech said:

 

But you said they were joined at the hip.  But nevermind it's not really important.  Each to his own.

 

Perhaps my words were not illustrative of the scenario. I meant in terms of travelling and meeting teachers etc   In other words they have both had access to a lot of the same people

[Apech]

1 minute ago, steve said:

 

Sorry to intrude like this but you are also highly educated and a scholar, if I'm not mistaken. 

Do you maintain that each and every word in every language has a single unique and exclusive meaning?

 

PS  - རྡོ་རྗེ is two letters, not four

 

Thank you @steve perhaps @Taoist Texts meant that.  I see.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Perhaps my words were not illustrative of the scenario. I meant in terms of travelling and meeting teachers etc   In other words they have both had access to a lot of the same people

 

Fine it's cool.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Sorry to intrude like this but you are also highly educated and a scholar, if I'm not mistaken. 

Do you maintain that each and every word in every language has a single unique and exclusive meaning?

 

PS  - རྡོ་རྗེ is two letters, not four

 

Also of interest is the tendency of Tibetans to pronounce it benza or even pancha (and other variants).

 

I think we need to explain why it means diamond (dor-je) in Tibetan ... what does this imply as to what is being referred to when the term vajrayana is used... (also sometimes called mantrayana of course).

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Apech you are a highly educated man. How can the same 4  letter word mean both a diamond and a thunderbolt and a weapon? Come on.

 

A semiautomatic is a woman's best friend.

[steve]

58 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Also of interest is the tendency of Tibetans to pronounce it benza or even pancha (and other variants).

 

I think we need to explain why it means diamond (dor-je) in Tibetan ... what does this imply as to what is being referred to when the term vajrayana is used... (also sometimes called mantrayana of course).

 

 

 

Some random thoughts...

Dorje and vajra are not often used in Bön teachings in my (limited) experience. 

The word Bön is generally used instead.

Both dorje/vajra and Bön are used to refer to indestructible, invincible, unchangeable, hence the association with the 'prince of stones' or diamond. 

This is why the Nazis adopted the symbol for Bön, the yungdrung (swastika), as a symbol that the third reich would be indestructible. 

And by extension this is used as a metaphor for the unalterable Truth or Reality, the Nature of Mind, innate Buddhahood.

This truth cuts through all illusion, hence the association with thunderbolt or the weapon of Indra - a cudgel of irresistible spiritual power.

Leading to the term vajrayana - vehicle of indestructible reality or vehicle of unalterable truth

 

or something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

 Given the practices I saw on the murals from the Lukhang temple and historic connections between Tantric Saivism and Tantric Buddhism  , I am thinking there may be a connection between the term and the vajra nadi as well. 

[awaken]

http://koyasan.org.tw/old/new_page_74.htm

The Vajrayana takes the Vajrayana Sutra as its fundamental classic, so it is called the Vajrayana.

The Diamond Crown Sutra is a large group of Jin-Gan in the article, so it is called the Diamond Crown Sutra.

You should not just look at the title and guess randomly, you should directly read the basic classics.

 

http://koyasan.org.tw/old/new_page_74.htm

「金剛」乘就是以「金剛」頂經為根本經典，所以稱為「金剛」乘。

「金剛」頂經就是文章中一大堆「金剛」，所以稱為「金剛」頂經。

你們不應該看著標題就亂猜，應該要直接看根本經典。

 

There are 650 King Kong in this book

 

這本書裡面講了650個「金剛」

 

The King Kong in this book is about the Daoist real person

 

這本書裡面的金剛，講的就是道家的真人

 

So everything about real people is called King Kong.

Such as flowers, hands, samadhi, etc.

 

所以有關真人的一切都稱為金剛。

例如花，手，三摩地等等

 

 

And the moon wheel will grow diamonds(King Gong,Vajra, real person).

Therefore, everyone should work hard to develop the moon wheel, so that the diamond will grow out of the moon wheel, and you will know what the diamond is.

 

而月輪會長出金剛。

所以各位應該努力練出月輪，這樣從月輪當中長出金剛，各位就會知道金剛是怎麼回事。
 

 

Instead of being confused by a bunch of King Kong nouns.

 

而不是被一堆金剛名詞搞得很混淆。

 

Everyone should use the method of inaction to practice the moon wheel and grow a diamond, instead of being unable to practice, but always guessing what a diamond is.

 

各位應該用無為法練出月輪，長出金剛，而不是練不出來，卻一直在猜什麼是金剛。

 

 

King Kong should be a primary real person. From the primary real person's magic weapon, after dispersing to produce dust, re-gathering, an intermediate real person can grow again.

But I think it's not from the dispersal of the magic weapon, but from the dispersal of the entire junior real person, which evolves into an intermediate real person. It's just that junior real people have all kinds of magic weapons.
But my level is too low, there are only two real people, so I really can't see what magic weapon is there.
The person who can write this article should be a real person who often appears, so he can write so clearly about the magic weapon.

I hope that everyone will spend time on the key points and practice the real level instead of playing lip service.

 

金剛應該就是初級的真人，從初級的真人的法器，散開來產生微塵之後，重新聚集，又能長出中級的真人。

但是我認為那不是從法器散開來的，而是整個初級真人散開來，演化產生中級真人的。只是剛好初級真人的有各種不同的法器。
不過我的程度太差，只出現兩次真人，實在看不清楚有什麼法器。
能寫出這篇文章的人，應該是經常出現真人，才會把什麼法器寫得這麼清楚。

我希望各位要把時間花在重點上，把真實的程度練出來，而不是耍嘴皮子。

Edited January 16, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

14 hours ago, steve said:

Sorry to intrude like this but you are also highly educated and a scholar, if I'm not mistaken. 

Not at all. You are always welcome.

 

14 hours ago, steve said:

Do you maintain that each and every word in every language has a single unique and exclusive meaning?

Yes, in my professional opinion of a trained linguist it does. Otherwise we would not be able to understand each other. 

Quote

 

A word is a unit of language that people who speak the language can refer to as a separate and specific unit of meaning.

https://www.toppr.com/guides/english/vocabulary/words/

 

the notion that a same word can have different meanings is a misunderstanding

13 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

A semiautomatic is a woman's best friend.

This one is a good example. E g one could think this refers to two different things - a toy and a gun. Instead it denotes just one thing: the semiautomatic action common to those things.

 

Quote

 

From Proto-Indo-Aryan *wáȷ́ras, from Proto-Indo-Iranian *wáȷ́ras, from Proto-Indo-European *weǵ- (“strong, lively”). Cognate with Avestan 𐬬𐬀𐬰𐬭𐬀‎ (vazra, “mace; main weapon of Mithra”), Persian گرز‎ (gurz, “club, mace”). Compare also Old Armenian վարզ (varz, “mace”), an Iranian borrowing.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/वज्र

 

 

 

Quote

a diamond (thought to be as hard as the thunderbolt or of the same substance with it), (ShaḍvBr., Mn., MBh. etc.)
a kind of talc (L.)
a kind of penance (feeding for a month on only barley prepared with cow's urine) (L.)

you dont say

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, awaken said:

always guessing what a diamond is.

a girl's best friend?

[Cobie]

On 16/01/2023 at 1:19 AM, awaken said:

… King Kong …

 Cultural barrier? I for one really don’t want to become “King Kong’.  

 

On 16/01/2023 at 10:07 AM, Taoist Texts said:

… the notion that a same word can have different meanings is a misunderstanding

This one is a good example. E g one could think this refers to two different things - a toy and a gun. Instead it denotes just one thing: the semiautomatic action common to those things.

Exactly.  Thank you for posting that.

 

Quote

… Otherwise we would not be able to understand each other. …

 

Exactly.
 

This goes to the core of my problem with the standard translations of the DDJ, the assumption that Classical does not fix one specific meaning to a text. Sigh … it does. But often people don’t want to hear what it says, so prefer to ignore grammar and meaning of words at the time of writing.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Piyadasi]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Otherwise we would not be able to understand each other. 

I mean honestly... we barely are

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

the notion that a same word can have different meanings is a misunderstanding

In my native tongue, the word for 'fortress' and the word 'waits' is the exact same, written and pronounced the same. I'm sure I could think of others, but this is probably #1 one that would jump to mind for most people in my country.

 

-

Regardless of that, even by your reasoning there is a reason why Vajra (in a spiritual context, which is pretty much it's exclusive use) means both thunder/lightning and diamond. The reason is actually that ancient Indians believed that when lightning strikes the earth, under certain conditions, diamonds can form (apparently this is not wholly inaccurate according to modern science). Even in modern India people have a version of this tale, but it involves cow dungs instead!

So more properly Vajra in the context of Vajrayana actually means the process by which the Unstoppable and transcendent (lightning) strikes the mundane, the potential (earth) to create the Indestructible and purified (diamond). It is the coming together of Pure Yang and Pure Yin. That is the Vajra Path. Depending on what meaning you want to emphasize, whether it's the transcendent force or the whole process or the result or the fundamental reality, this is why these images are tied to it.

Even in terms of it's meaning as a weapon and in the Vedic context, it is the weapon of Indra of the thunderbolt hand, king of the gods, who uses it to slay the Serpent of the Underworld (whose Sanskrit name literally translates to 'Obstacle'). In some tales it is forged from the spine (and bones) of a Rigvedic sage who sacrifices himself through yoga and is used to kill the Dragon who obscures the free-flow of all the sacred rivers. That last sentence alone should ring some bells for anyone who knows anything about the later stages of Indian Tantra

 

[steve]

@Taoist Texts

How do linguists deal with English words like bow, bark, reel, row, nail, season, squash, novel, lead, racket, and list, just to name a few? I was always taught we distinguish ambiguous meaning based on context. It happens all the time.

And euphemisms take it up a notch…