Interview with Adam Mizner

[Geof Nanto]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

If I held on to my view that strength, skill, attainment and mastery are all toxic, ego-centric things, I would've remained a pleasure-seeking, discomfort-averse automaton with a promising inner spark for the rest of my life. 

 

You are writing some excellent posts here Freeform. Thank you.   To give a slightly different take on pleasure seeking, would you say you’ve found a path that gives you great pleasure?  Or maybe better expressed, you’ve found a path that gives pleasure to the Divine heart-mind (daoxin 道心) within you? From what you write, I suspect you would not like to express it in this way. 

 

Something that’s apparent to me is that Damo and Adam love what they are doing.  This to me is of fundamental importance. I’ve learnt plenty from teachers who do love what they are doing, but I’ve also learnt over the years not to imitate them. They have found their path and I can admire their attainments but what is my path? Does what I’m doing have a heart? How does the Divine want to express itself through me?

 

Something I wrote a while back on my cultivation practice:

 

For me deeper down, I only do this because, all things considered, it's the easiest path for me. That's how Dao works, why it's sometimes referred to as the Watercourse Way. Mine has been a path of following my desires, of doing what I felt like, and then dealing with the consequences. Initially these consequences, though pleasurable at first, had almost entirely unpleasant consequences. But slowly through an alchemical process of refinement using the whole of life as fire and cauldron, my desires have slowly transmuted into something far more harmonious with Dao.

 

This could also be called a path of following one's heart. And sure, I am forced to gain insight into rotten aspects of my heart. No way is this pleasant! Yet it's still the easiest thing for me to do because not dealing with it feels like stagnation and a slow death of my heart; of my soul. That's what happens with inner cultivation. My alignment with Dao strengthens and I'm compelled to act accordingly because I gain a glimpse of an awe-inspiring deeper reality. I’ve found nothing else that compares to the sense of wholeness, of inner belonging, which a felt connection with the numinous mystery I choose to call the Divine brings.

 

(I written some more on finding my own personal path with a heart in my PPD under the heading,  Drug addiction, money and the transmutation of desire.)
 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Geof Nanto said:

To give a slightly different take on pleasure seeking, would you say you’ve found a path that gives you great pleasure?  Or maybe better expressed, you’ve found a path that gives pleasure to the Divine heart-mind (daoxin 道心) within you? From what you write, I suspect you would not like to express it in this way.

Yeah - pleasure to me means something in particular - like pleasing sensations… but I recognise that not everyone has the same definition  

 

Yes when settled I feel an underlying kind of satisfaction and joy that is not based on external circumstances… If I’m unsettled internally this sense of joy recedes and is replaced by whatever the mind is fixating on.

 

If I settle and my mind quietens this sense of appreciation reappears.

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

On one level you start to recognise what motivates an action… 

 

Does the action (whether a physical action in the world or mental action - like thinking or intending)… does it come from the Acquired Self or the Spirit?

 

Is the action motivated by fear? (Base desires)… does it come from automated habitual patterns? Is it just a knee-jerk, stimulus-response reaction to something?

 

Even if an action like that has an apparently beneficial effect, it’s still one that leads you (if only a tiny bit) away from the Divine within you.

 

Then there are actions that come from deeper parts of you - ‘purer’ parts that are closer to the source (known as the De or Virtues)… effectively your Soul - the personal level of the Divine.

 

Then, on an even deeper level, some actions can come from within the very centre of the Divine - your Spirit (a religious person might say it’s God acting through you)… 

 

Of course in the beginning it’s hard to discern, and you’ll find that an uncomfortable amount of your day to day motivations come from the habitual and base aspects… this can be painful to learn… especially when you discover parts of you that masquerade as loving and caring are actually motivated by greed and selfishness. 

 

Conscience is a good guide for most people. You tend to feel at a subtle level if something is coming from a self-gratifying aspect of you…

 

A teacher, a partner or a close friend can also provide feedback.

 

Once you start to get genuine virtuous action happening from time to time, you get a sense for it… 

 

But this is when the ‘unexpected turn’ starts to not matter… Meaning that on the rare occasion when it’s true, unconditioned virtue acting from within me, I’m fully prepared to die as a result.

 

Its not ‘bravery’… it’s something else - coz as Dwai said, you’re not identified with you as the person or the body… you’re identified with something bigger and pretty much immortal - so death doesn’t even figure in it.

 

It is said that a sage that acts purely through uncontrived De (virtue) is akin to a saint - the outcomes of all their actions are benevolent and beneficial on a deep level.

 

You always find a way to put into words what others cannot You've been more than generous in this thread.  Ill thrown one in for people for good measure (Regardless of what it signifies). Make what you will of it  

 

Ill have to skirt around certain details , but here's an interesting anecdote for people, something I've never wrote down before. I've never told anyone except my family actually. 

 

A while back, before I signed up here,, my health was failing in a very serious way.  It got to the point where I was being tested for terminal illness, having had been through basically endless diagnostics and no answer.

 

I need to emphasize this, it was no joke. I was straddling a very fine line, one I felt myself leaning towards the wrong side of all to often. There was a point where certain decisions needed to be made. Seriously tough decisions I was utterly afraid to make and refused to.

 

After many hours, I remember it was like something washed over me, and my own thoughts, fears, worries, stress, sense of identity disappeared. It was like my entire being disappeared. Even the chronic, desperate pain id been in for months left in an instant. 

 

All that registered was everyone else around me. It was like I was gone, but I could feel everything they felt and there was this weird sense of connection. But "I" was not present.

 

Decisions were then made and actions taken. Ones I would have thought to be very tough, within seconds. In reality in that moment they weren't hard at all, they weren't even a decision to be honest because there wasn't a thought process once that switch happened.

 

Whether you'd asked me to do what I did, jump into a shark tank, shoot myself, drive off a cliff,  jump in front of a train. It would have happened if it was right for the others, and not one other thought would have entered my head.

 

Not that "I" was even there to receive a thought anyway

 

I remember talking to my other half after that. I was stumped. I didnt have the language for it.  I just said I was like a man possessed, like something else took the wheel. 

 

"I" wasn't there, and "I " didnt get a say in the matter. It was almost like if my body was a vehicle , "I" the person inhabiting it, was knocked unconscious and placed in the backseat for a while, someone took the car for a long drive, then came back and parked it where we started. Later, when I then woke up the "someone" was gone, but there was a nice video recording of the trip the car had been on that I could review (sorry trying to get this across is not easy) 

 

She maintained I'd found God in that moment, not having the vocabulary for it I kind of nodded but never really said much, especially as I was so dumbfounded.

 

I knew something had happened, I just didnt know what it was.

 

What followed in the coming months after that, along with training got increasingly weirder, and well, that's between me and a few others.  

 

Apologies for the messiness and disorganisation, It is rather hard to word that kind of thing. The above really doesn't do it justice

 

But it is very interesting to see this post in light of that experience. Certainly has me reflecting on that day 

 

Thank you my friend  

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Barnaby]

6 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Apologies for the messiness and disorganisation, It is rather hard to word that kind of thing.

 

No apologies necessary, on the contrary.

 

Great post. It really brings a lot to the discussion.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

No apologies necessary, on the contrary.

 

Great post. It really brings a lot to the discussion.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Most welcome  

 

Its funny, though that one sticks out in my head as a time when a radical shift began. Id kind of parked it due to a total lack of an understanding and explanation, despite it being rather profound (I did have to omit some details though).

 

I usually remain on the side of caution and skepticism with these things, and try not to attach much in the way of meaning.

 

@freeform, as always has given me a lot to think about though  

 

Straddling a line health wise, can lead to some rather interesting experiences regards life, death and the nature of consciousness.

 

It is certainly not a case of attainment, but rather a fleeting experience or a glimpse,  a kind of peek back of the veil that shrouds reality. The resultant experience can certainly alter a person permanently. You hear that all the time with NDE's though

 

People that have an NDE seem to get it all at once.

 

People who have something chronic keeping them with one foot in the world and one foot out of it, they seem to get it in a more incremental fashion 

 

I might be wrong here, but, from  personal experience it seems once  certain things happen, the experience becomes familiar to you, and then returning to such territory may not be as difficult as say someone who has never done so before

 

I don't know why, but I think a big part of it is that a massive amount of fear falls away.

 

Another reason could be that what you're experiencing is nothing "new" but rather just something buried deep. Im just speculating here though

Edited January 11, 2023 by Shadow_self

[steve]

22 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I think the basis for this whole discussion on visualization is really more globally about reducing intentionality in practice to allow the fruits to naturally arise.

 

I think you summed that up quite well. I agree with this approach completely, in fact it is my own core practice. However, not everyone is ready for this approach. For some, the distractions and confusion are so strong they require a method that uses effort and intention. These people need to be acknowledged and supported just as much as those who are ready to let go of the effort and intention. It is important as a teacher to discern what any given student needs and support them on that path until they no longer need it. This is why the Buddha is said to have taught 84,000 different methods.

[forestofemptiness]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:27 AM, Shadow_self said:

You wont be imagining anything when this shows up

 

Pathogenic release happens in Vajrayana as well. Individual practices have what we call "signs of accomplishment." Most of this stuff is kept under wraps, and not just to keep things under wraps. Silence is a bit of a protective measure when you are dealing with some of the more magical side of things. I would say it is better to keep an open mind about these things, even if you think they are impossible. I would also say that if you think something is impossible, it will be impossible. Accordingly, I am always a bit hesitant to let these sorts of limiting thoughts take root in my mind, and I would not recommend them to others. I used to think Vajrayana was kind of useless, but I don't anymore, which genuinely surprised me. 

 

Of course, from a Buddhist POV, every thing that manifests is due to ripening of karma, so this is important to keep in mind when delving into this stuff. 

 

At any rate, I hope your health improves or keeps improving. 

 

On 1/10/2023 at 4:31 AM, freeform said:

Ever since I've had the jade fluid, I no longer get tired - I don't get irritable - I don't have drops in mood... I could go without sleep for as long as I'd want without losing focus and drive (I'd probably die before getting tired - which is a little dangerous)...

 

Quote

Energetic practices can build you up... they can even create the conditions for the divine spark within you to begin to shine... But that won't unwind your self focus and narcissism - it won't make you a kinder person... you just have to go out and do it yourself.

 

So these do not seem to be saying the same thing. What I have most often heard is the second, that energetic practices will enhance what is already there, so an jerk becomes a super jerk, and a saint becomes a super saint. This is the model that seems to reflect my personal experience and interactions with others. In addition, this is fairly in line with Buddhist tradition as well with the distinction between samadhi and prajna. Damo teaches more or less the same thing if I am recalling correctly, which is why Damo teaches both types of practices. However, the bottom line is that in my mind people may have power without wisdom, or wisdom and not display power. 

 

The first model is interesting-- Glenn Morris was of this opinion for example. I'm not sure what to make of it, because in a sense it would seem to deprive one of the opportunity to work with negative states of mind. In this case, they would be eliminated not through seeing through them, but through a biological or energetic process, which sounds to me like a healthier form of Prozac or soemthing.  On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't turn it down if offered. Which of course would not be, given I am a lazy, busy, part-time practitioner at best. 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by forestofemptiness

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

It is certainly not a case of attainment, but rather a fleeting experience or a glimpse,  a kind of peek back of the veil that shrouds reality. 

 

Something akin to an awakening, do you think?

 

I've heard of awakening experiences described as kind of foretastes – not attainments, as you say – of what lies further down the path. But that was in less dramatic contexts than the one you describe...

 

[S:C]

17 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

"I" wasn't there, and "I " didnt get a say in the matter. It was almost like if my body was a vehicle , "I" the person inhabiting it, was knocked unconscious and placed in the backseat for a while, someone took the car for a long drive, then came back and parked it where we started. Later, when I then woke up the "someone" was gone

This reminded me of a poem. Thanks for sharing.

Spoiler

Edited January 11, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[Shadow_self]

48 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Pathogenic release happens in Vajrayana as well. Individual practices have what we call "signs of accomplishment." Most of this stuff is kept under wraps, and not just to keep things under wraps. Silence is a bit of a protective measure when you are dealing with some of the more magical side of things.

 

Oh I would agree with you 100%.

 

In my post I was referring to having access to certain tantric methods, irrelevant of tradition. These methods would be ones where physical manifestations would be a sign of not only them working, but at later stages, accomplishment.

 

Im not overly privy to magical things, I have had a brush or two with them, but overall not my forte  Weirdness though, that's for sure

 

48 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I would say it is better to keep an open mind about these things, even if you think they are impossible. I would also say that if you think something is impossible, it will be impossible. Accordingly, I am always a bit hesitant to let these sorts of limiting thoughts take root in my mind, and I would not recommend them to others. I used to think Vajrayana was kind of useless, but I don't anymore, which genuinely surprised me. 

 

Of course, from a Buddhist POV, every thing that manifests is due to ripening of karma, so this is important to keep in mind when delving into this stuff. 

 

I dont think Vajrayana is useless at all. Quite the opposite

 

Its why Im happy to see it spoken about here  

 

What I have some reservations about is the publicly available things here in the west. And not even all of them, just a lot of it.

 

You made a great point about secrecy above.

 

Ive seen it where people have paid and been promised the "secret methods" of certain schools, yet are only being given part of the story. Alternatively, the real deal is sitting under their nose, some of it free of charge, and it escapes them

 

Unsurprisingly they are the ones chasing powers, abilities etc.

 

48 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

At any rate, I hope your health improves or keeps improving.

 

Thank you

 

That description above was when it started to really get bad , a period which lasted a few months. Once that happened, it stabilized, increasing amounts of weirdness and bizarreness ensued. 

 

Good practice, good methods, good advice and it started to reverse  

 

In any event the most I get now is a little discomfort every so often and some minor thing that lots of people have all the time, nothing major really  

[Shadow_self]

29 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Something akin to an awakening, do you think?

 

I've heard of awakening experiences described as kind of foretastes – not attainments, as you say – of what lies further down the path.

 

Well not really.

 

I understand why you'd use that term, but to me an awakening is a very stable, advanced state. This was more like you're being given a taste of something. A very quick taste  

 

Like when someone gives you that tiny piece of cheese on a stick  

 

 I have come to understand a bit more about all this. It wasn't like I practiced and whack this happened. There was a extremely unique set of circumstances that lead up to me having a few experiences.

 

And that's why I don't say too much

 

29 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

But that was in less dramatic contexts than the one you describe...

 

 

That was only the first of a few, and a bit on the milder side in terms of my own external perception. That one hit me  internally very deep, but the ones that followed?

 

There was no "knocking me out and placing me in the back seat". It was full on smack you in the face so hard it stings like lemon juice and salt in a wound

 

I came into the arts, looking for something. It wasn't powers, or abilities or attainments. I just wanted to know the truth. That was all.

 

Im very grateful for the glimpses of truth I've got It changed my life completely

 

[Shadow_self]

57 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

This reminded me of a poem. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

You're welcome   

 

I grew up admiring this poem

 

It was on my uncles wall, and I have a very deep appreciation for, and connection to it . He's a great man

 

Its been a while since I've seen it, so thank you for the bringing up a very nice memory

[freeform]

18 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

So these do not seem to be saying the same thing.

You can have lots of energy, be in a good mood - and still be a jerk 

 

It’s up to your own self-work to transform the jerkish qualities…

 

The extra energy can go into virtue or it can go into selfishness… you have to work at diverting it away from selfishness.

 

That’s kinda what I was trying to say.

[dino]

 

[forestofemptiness]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

The extra energy can go into virtue or it can go into selfishness… you have to work at diverting it away from selfishness.

 

So we're really talking about physical manifestations of subtle body accomplishments, rather than spiritual realization as set forth by Buddhist and Vedantic sources. Which isn't to diminish, dismiss or demean such things, but it seems like there's a bit of apples and oranges comparison. 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

So we're really talking about physical manifestations of subtle body accomplishments, rather than spiritual realization as set forth by Buddhist and Vedantic sources.

There I was talking about my own experiences.

And I’m just a beginner in the grand scheme of things  

 

I’ve had some other manifestations related to spiritual work - but I won’t be discussing those.

[Sahaja]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:35 AM, forestofemptiness said:

 

So we're really talking about physical manifestations of subtle body accomplishments, rather than spiritual realization as set forth by Buddhist and Vedantic sources. Which isn't to diminish, dismiss or demean such things, but it seems like there's a bit of apples and oranges comparison. 

In some traditions I am familiar with, the path to the spiritual goes through all the body layers including the physical, energetic and mind whether it is a Jing - Qi-Shen - Wuji model in NeiDan or the bhairanga-antaranga yoga model in classical yoga or the Nath Hatha/Amanaska yoga model. I think one could even view some Tibetan systems as following a similar trajectory, certainly the Lukang mural pictures imply strong physical/ energetic components to their sadhana.
 

My understanding of these systems that view the physical and energetic components as important view Sadhana on all the layers as wholistic. Their processes seem to be viewed as more operating on a continuum (e.g. Jing - qi -shen as the same substance just at different vibrational levels) than on a dualistic split between the mind and the body. Work on any level potentially has some knock on effect at all other levels or layers.  Doing certain.asana or mudra  not only potentially affects the physical but the subtler layers as well. Standing practice (e.g. zz) the same. The path followed leads through all the levels or layers through and even beyond the mind. The “juice” and the mental conditions/lessons generated from working at the physical and energetic levels are intended to support the work on the more subtle levels. Any potential negative or spiritually limiting effect of this “juice” is intended to be moderated through the behavioral components observed and the mental conditions generated by the practices themselves on their respective paths. They would generally say that bypassing the physical and energetic levels either limits the effectiveness at working the more subtle levels or might even make them unavailable if the needed mental & physical prerequisite  conditions have not been achieved. They might also say that bypassing these lower levels could create a price to pay further down the path.

 

alternatively there are Advaita type models that appear to bypass these layers altogether.  Some of these paths appear to view work at these “lower” layers as an unnecessary to the process or even sending people in the wrong direction away from the spiritual. They may view that we are already “there” and the work focuses on just realizing this.  Other paths may view work at the the physical/energetic levels as optional , depending on the spiritual maturity of the individual and grace of the guru.  Still other paths seem to focus on the mind as the key component on the path to spiritual development but still see some applicability of the physical and energetic layers (they include use of physical and energetic  practices like walking, sensation or breath focused practices)

 

while I am not saying all these paths lead to exactly the same place (I agree that they are definitely not all apples), nor that those that have important physical and energetic components are the same as each other nor that one path is better than another.  I am in no position to judge or critique or give guidance to anyone on their choice of path as I am just a beginner.   Rather the point I am trying to make is  that if we look closer we may find that many of those paths with important physical and energetic components do appear to be intended to lead toward spiritual growth and attainment however defined.  They also generally have behavioral guidelines/practices that are important on their respective paths intended  to regulate any negative or counter productive outcomes associated with physical and energetic practices. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Sahaja said:

alternatively there are Advaita type models that appear to bypass these layers altogether.  Some of these paths appear to view work at these “lower” layers as an unnecessary to the process or even sending people in the wrong direction away from the spiritual. They may view that we are already “there” and the work focuses on just realizing this.  Other paths may view work at the the physical/energetic levels as optional , depending on the spiritual maturity of the individual and grace of the guru.  Still other paths seem to focus on the mind as the key component on the path to spiritual development but still see some applicability of the physical and energetic layers (they include use of physical and energetic  practices like walking, sensation or breath focused practices)

 

In my experience, determining what kind of and how much of practice is required depends on the individual. There is no one-size-fits-all in the spiritual path. But it is also true that the Advaita model is the correct model - I know it might raise some hackles. Still, once we get non-dual insight, it becomes apparent that it is ever-present, irrespective of whether someone recognizes it. The irony of trying to "make something happen" (such as producing an elixir or attaining enlightenment) is very apparent. There is nothing to be produced and attained - only recognition is needed. Once the recognition happens, there is an irreversible switch of perspective.

 

But the steps outlined in many of the "attainment" based systems are necessary, though not for the reasons those systems outline. They are essential for the purification of the mind, for clearing the mud of the mind, so to speak, so that the true nature can be seen as the ground upon which all forms and names manifest. So all the "methods" that one might learn, spend years perfecting, etc., do have value, but preparatory steps (not to be mistaken for insignificant or less important). The old saying is as follows - the fruit ripens when the conditions are correct, and once it is ripe, it falls off the stem. The ripening process includes all these methods, techniques, and practices one undertakes. The falling off the branch by itself once ripe is what is called realization or recognition. 

 

The mahamrityunjay mantra goes like this -

 

Spoiler

ॐ त्र्य॑म्बकं यजामहे सु॒गन्धिं॑ पुष्टि॒वर्ध॑नम् ।
उ॒र्वा॒रु॒कमि॑व॒ बन्ध॑नान् मृ॒त्योर्मु॑क्षीय॒ माऽमृता॑॑त् ।।^[5]

oṃ tryámbakaṃ yajāmahe sugandhíṃ puṣṭi-vardhánam
urvārukam íva bandhánān mṛtyor mukṣīya mā 'mṛtā́t

 

We worship the three-eyed One, who is fragrant and who nourishes all.
Like the ripe cucumber falls off from the bondage of the stem, may we be liberated from death, from mortality.

This liberation from death is not physical immortality - it is the realization of our true immortal nature - that which is beyond creation and destruction - that which is existence itself. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Sahaja said:

Rather the point I am trying to make is  that if we look closer we may find that many of those paths with important physical and energetic components do appear to be intended to lead toward spiritual growth and attainment

The rainbow body… or ‘dragon body’ being an example… the non-rotting body… the crystal ‘relics’ left behind after death etc. The various (visible) light phenomena that occur at various stages etc.

 

In these traditions, if there’s no transformation in the physical, then the transformation is not complete.

 

(there are other traditions with different views - which is where personal discernment comes in).

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

the realization of our true immortal nature - that which is beyond creation and destruction - that which is existence itself. 

The attainment of Dao

 

Considered the beginning of the spiritual Path in alchemical traditions… everything prior was, as you say preparation… everything to come actualisation.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

The attainment of Dao

What can there be beyond this?  

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Considered the beginning of the spiritual Path in alchemical traditions… everything prior was, as you say preparation… everything to come actualisation.

I know, I've heard that. If that is the case, then it is not a full realization. After realization, all that happens is the exhaustion of the karma that produced this particular name-form application. 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What can there be beyond this?

Nothing… The Dao is The Path - and it leads where it leads

 

Quote

After realization, all that happens is the exhaustion of the karma that produced this particular name-form application.

If you want to use this frame…

 

The fact that you’re manifesting your body in its form is also karma.
 

As this karma is shed and transformed, you will manifest Spirit… a Spirited body in the physical realm… this is a natural extension of your realisation to the deepest level possible in human form.

 

Whether this is a calling for you or not is part of your Path.

[steve]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What can there be beyond this?  

I know, I've heard that. If that is the case, then it is not a full realization. After realization, all that happens is the exhaustion of the karma that produced this particular name-form application. 

 

Another interpretation of realization is manifestation of the three bodies.

 

 

[dwai]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

Nothing… The Dao is The Path - and it leads where it leads

 

If you want to use this frame…

 

The fact that you’re manifesting your body in its form is also karma.
 

As this karma is shed and transformed, you will manifest Spirit… a Spirited body in the physical realm… this is a natural extension of your realisation to the deepest level possible in human form.

 

Whether this is a calling for you or not is part of your Path.

So we switch from one illusion to another? Why?  

[freeform]

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

So we switch from one illusion to another? Why?  

I only answer real questions