Combining Qigong and Yungdrung Bon practice?

[chidaruma]

Hello,

There are already some topics similar to this one, and I have read them, but still I felt that my questions weren't answered, so I decided to register on the forum and ask them myself. Originally I planned to send it as a DM to @steve, but I decided to post it openly, so anyone else that has experience with both systems can contribute if they wish to do so. That being said, I'd really appreciate your input @steve.

 

I'm a Yungdrung Bon practitioner. My practice, at least when it comes to working with channels and energy, consists of tsa lung exercises from Magyud, Zhang Zhung Nyengyud trul khor and tummo from Ku Sum Rang Shar (for now the general and special preliminaries only). Recently I have begun to dabble a bit in qigong, with some local instructor and their teacher that visits us from time to time. We seem to do mostly alignment stuff for now, opening the kua, wall squats and the like, as well as some basic forms.

 

Even at that really basic level my qigong practice really enhanced my body, my energy levels and general well-being, in a way that my Tibetan yoga practice didn't seem to address. I get many benefits from doing yoga of course, but it just has a different feel and effect upon my mind and body. I'd describe it like using different sets of muscles, metaphorically speaking.

 

I want to continue my qigong practice, as I found it rewarding and complementary to my other endeavours, but I'm worried it can cause some problems down the line. I've read the injunctions against mixing systems from both traditions, so understandably that is concerning to me, as of course I will continue on the path of Tibetan yoga. From your point of view - practitioners that have practiced in both traditions - can they be mixed safely or not? (by mixing I don't mean doing them in one session, but for example qigong one day, yoga the other, or qigong in the evening and yoga in the morning etc.)

 

If so - what is the qigong system that you would recommend for someone like me? I was thinking about the Zhineng Qigong (simply because of the availability of online teachings), but I read that the teacher advised against mixing it with other qigong system, not to mention other traditions.

 

Secondly, do you think that the Tibetan approach is lacking in certain respects? I don't mean to offend anyone, or the teachings. I consider myself a dedicated practitioner, I've taken refuge vows, but I can't help but wonder that the Tibetan systems are forceful and fiery to the extreme, pure yang, while the Daoist systems seem more balanced. At least that is my limited, entry-level understanding, as I am an expert in neither.

 

I'd appraciate any guidance I can get, and thanks for getting through this long post _/\_

[steve]

Hi @chidaruma

Welcome to DaoBums!

Disclaimer - I'm not an expert or master of anything just a moderately dedicated student stumbling along as best I can.

 

I have found qigong and Bön practices to be complimentary and safe together for me.

One thing I've learned is that what is good for me may or may not be good for someone else when it comes to energetic and spiritual practices. The qigong I practice includes ba duan jin, shiba luohan gong, and taiji jian shen fa but mostly ba duan jin. I have no personal experience with zhineng qigong. It's a very young system created in the 1980's and seems to be an amalgam of different systems. Some of the movements appear externally similar to the taiji jian shen fa routine I practice. I think a set like ba duan jin would be safe to combine with Bön practices, it has been for me, and it is quite widespread and accessible while still being quite ancient and time-tested. 

 

My recommendation is try and learn any qigong you are going to practice from a credible teacher and to follow their advice when it comes to combining it with other practices and traditions. My other suggestion is to go slowly and cautiously and feel your way through the practices, listening to how your body, energy, and mind are reacting. Both the Tibetan and Daoist practices have cultivated heightened sensitivity and awareness of what is going on inside, and outside,  for me so I think there is little risk of trouble as long as you go slow, listen, and observe closely. I would use considerably more caution when it comes to combining other practices with neigong. 

 

The Tibetan practices certainly do have a forceful and fiery side, especially in the early stages, but I find them to be well-balanced overall. The tsa lung from the Ma Gyüd, for example, includes the physical movements and breath holding which are quite "yang" but there is also the inner listening, opening, and resting upon completion of each set, integral "yin" components of the process that provide balance. If I find anything lacking in the Tibetan practices it is that I miss some of the standing meditation and upright movement I enjoyed in Daoist arts like qigong, taiji, and bagua. Not that I think this compromises the efficacy of the system but it, as you say, exercises different metaphorical "muscles." Conversely, I found the Daoist practices to be somewhat lacking for me when it came to connecting energetic cultivation to certain areas of my life in a practical way which does happen through the Tibetan approach.

 

I think there is definite value to having a primary spiritual practice strongly rooted in one tradition but I also think it is fine to supplement, if you feel the need, with other practices. I do a bit and have yet to experience any negative effects. Good luck and feel free to reach out if you think I can be of any help.

 

[chidaruma]

Thank you very much for your insight! _/\_

[forestofemptiness]

I have asked many teachers similar questions, and they have replied in line with what @steve has said. I think it makes a difference if you are doing a health type practice or a spiritual type practice. Although in my experience, the healthiest qigong practitioners also do something else (usually physical exercises and/or martial arts). 

 

Just keep in mind that time and attention tend to be limited resources (especially if you have or expect to have a family and full time job). Accordingly, it may be worth assessing how much time you actually have to spend on other practices, and whether that time would be better spent on the practices you already have. This is especially the case given the variety and diversity of practices one can encounter in the Tibetan realm. More than likely, after a certain point you end up dropping certain practices due to time/energy.

 

Of course, if you are just starting, then it is a different story. 

 

I do think there are different emphases based on the practice and the tradition, or even within the same tradition. So basically, by training up some skills, you may be training down others. 

 

 

[chidaruma]

Thank you @forestofemptiness. For now I don't plan to go full on into qigong, mainly because of what you mentioned - time constraints. I don't have enough time as it is to do all the Bonpo practices that I want to do, not to mention practices from other traditions, but I prioritize what gives me the most benefit, and my body gives me clear signals that qigong is beneficial to it - it exercises the "muscles" that aren't used in my yoga practices, but that is the limit of where I want to go with my qigong practice, at least for now. Life is just long enough to get really good at one thing I think.

[Master Logray]

19 hours ago, chidaruma said:

Even at that really basic level my qigong practice really enhanced my body, my energy levels and general well-being, in a way that my Tibetan yoga practice didn't seem to address. I get many benefits from doing yoga of course, but it just has a different feel and effect upon my mind and body. I'd describe it like using different sets of muscles, metaphorically speaking.

 

Secondly, do you think that the Tibetan approach is lacking in certain respects? I don't mean to offend anyone, or the teachings. I consider myself a dedicated practitioner, I've taken refuge vows, but I can't help but wonder that the Tibetan systems are forceful and fiery to the extreme, pure yang, while the Daoist systems seem more balanced. At least that is my limited, entry-level understanding, as I am an expert in neither.

 

 

One of the factors affecting different internal arts is the location.  This is often overlooked.  Tibetan approach has been developed in Himalayas, which is a high altitude, cold, dry place.  While China's qigong thrives in usually lower altitude, warmer, wetter.  Indian Yoga grows in much wetter and hotter climate.  Over the centuries, the arts naturally have to adopt to the local climate, races and normal sicknesses.  It is why you say the Tibetan systems are forceful and fiery to the extreme, pure yang, while the Daoist systems seem more balanced.   Just look at the thermometer, then you know why it needs to be more fiery.  

 

It is also the reason why Indian Yoga adopts a more lying down approach, while Qigong is more on standing.   So perhaps you need a bit more standing, moving type of cultivation.  You can find them within your current system if possible.

 

There is a need to take into account the origin of the particular art, your own location now and to a less extent - your hereditary.  Let say if you stay in southern India or south east Asia, then it may be better to concentrate in Indian Yoga.  If you stay in Alps or Andes, then it is easy.

 

Even with the same tradition, a person's body determines what are the more appropriate particular exercises.  A fat person would need to deal with heat problem.  A thin person needs to move more while bear in mind conserving energy. 

 

Lastly I don't think it is prudent to mix breathing from different traditions, while movements are generally easier to mix.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:36 AM, chidaruma said:

Secondly, do you think that the Tibetan approach is lacking in certain respects? I don't mean to offend anyone, or the teachings. I consider myself a dedicated practitioner, I've taken refuge vows, but I can't help but wonder that the Tibetan systems are forceful and fiery to the extreme, pure yang, while the Daoist systems seem more balanced. At least that is my limited, entry-level understanding, as I am an expert in neither.

I think it's a difference in approach. Even within the yogic traditions, you'll find soft and hard approaches. It depends on the goal of the practice. I don't know about Tibetan Yoga much. Still, in the Hindu/Indian Yogic systems,  the general tendency is for relaxed practice - avoid extreme temperatures in your practice environment, and don't try to force your way through the material (i.e., take your time), never practice in a way that you're panting or running out of breath. My teacher didn't let us advance beyond basic spinal purification practices for 6+ months - another year before doing pranayama and another six months before we could do breath retention in pranayama. And another six months before we could increase the retention period, and so on. 

 

On the other hand, there are ridiculous things like power, fire, Bikram, and other kinds of nonsense that pass off as yoga too. It's important to discern between what is real and what is a gimmick.

 

Similarly, in the qigong world too, you'll find hard qigong vs. soft qigong, hard methods vs. soft methods, and so on. The key is to find balance. How much of the effort a practitioner sees in their practice is a result of their inexperience vs. what is expected of in the system they are training?

 

 

[steve]

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

One of the factors affecting different internal arts is the location.  This is often overlooked.  Tibetan approach has been developed in Himalayas, which is a high altitude, cold, dry place.  While China's qigong thrives in usually lower altitude, warmer, wetter.  Indian Yoga grows in much wetter and hotter climate.  Over the centuries, the arts naturally have to adopt to the local climate, races and normal sicknesses.  It is why you say the Tibetan systems are forceful and fiery to the extreme, pure yang, while the Daoist systems seem more balanced.   Just look at the thermometer, then you know why it needs to be more fiery.  

 

It is also the reason why Indian Yoga adopts a more lying down approach, while Qigong is more on standing.   So perhaps you need a bit more standing, moving type of cultivation.  You can find them within your current system if possible.

 

There is a need to take into account the origin of the particular art, your own location now and to a less extent - your hereditary.  Let say if you stay in southern India or south east Asia, then it may be better to concentrate in Indian Yoga.  If you stay in Alps or Andes, then it is easy.

 

Even with the same tradition, a person's body determines what are the more appropriate particular exercises.  A fat person would need to deal with heat problem.  A thin person needs to move more while bear in mind conserving energy. 

 

Lastly I don't think it is prudent to mix breathing from different traditions, while movements are generally easier to mix.

 

 

Good and valuable points about the effects of geography, physiology, and culture on spiritual practices, not to mention age, nutrition, and a whole host of relevant variables. On a related note the Tibetans were largely nomadic and relied on walking long distances at altitude. They probably had less need of standing and moving activities and often had to practice in yurts, small rooms, and caves. 

[freeform]

Generally it’s best to stay away from mixing energetic systems.

 

(Very simplistically…) Any system that works directly on the energy body is essentially training a certain pathway for the energy to follow. Like digging a trench for water to get to your veg patch…

 

Different systems have different ideas on how exactly to dig these trenches…

 

And combining several methods will most likely end up in a chaotic veg patch. It may get too much water and be muddy… or you’ll inadvertently waste your water somewhere along the way and have dry lifeless patch…

 

However. If you know exactly what you’re doing… and you know exactly where systems align and where they diverge - then you can mix elements of one with another…

 

But knowing what you’re doing is the key here…

What you’ve mentioned about your qigong practice, @chidaruma - it sounds like it’s at the non-energetic end of the scale as far as qigong goes. So assuming you stay with postural stuff, opening the kwa, stretching etc - then you should be fine…

 

But combining powerful Dantien based practices with the various locks and breath holds I’ve seen in Tibetan practice could be quite problematic.

 

Have you considered doing some internal martial arts instead? Taiji, bagua etc? Providing you find a good teacher, these arts may give you what you’re looking for in regards to opening, strengthening and rebuilding the body, without too much of the energetics affecting your main practice.

[forestofemptiness]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

the general tendency is for relaxed practice

 

This is an issue many teachers have addressed with Tibetan practices--- relaxing the body, especially when conducting holds and locks. However, many of us due to various reasons tend to tense up, and also push ourselves for some goal, which is problematic.  

[chidaruma]

On 01/11/2022 at 7:32 PM, freeform said:

What you’ve mentioned about your qigong practice, @chidaruma - it sounds like it’s at the non-energetic end of the scale as far as qigong goes. So assuming you stay with postural stuff, opening the kwa, stretching etc - then you should be fine…

 

[...]

 

Have you considered doing some internal martial arts instead? Taiji, bagua etc? Providing you find a good teacher, these arts may give you what you’re looking for in regards to opening, strengthening and rebuilding the body, without too much of the energetics affecting your main practice.

 

That is a very good point. I think that's it. I feel that Bon practices can take me all the way there energetically and spiritually, while physically I might need some supplementation. I'll see what is available in terms of internal martial arts where I live.

[chidaruma]

On 01/11/2022 at 4:48 PM, dwai said:

Similarly, in the qigong world too, you'll find hard qigong vs. soft qigong, hard methods vs. soft methods, and so on. The key is to find balance. How much of the effort a practitioner sees in their practice is a result of their inexperience vs. what is expected of in the system they are training?

 

 

 

21 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

This is an issue many teachers have addressed with Tibetan practices--- relaxing the body, especially when conducting holds and locks. However, many of us due to various reasons tend to tense up, and also push ourselves for some goal, which is problematic.  

 

That's all true, and my teachers warned me about doing it too forcefully and on the physical level, without integrating it with the rest of the spiritual practice, but even taking into consideration that I personally might not be the ideal practitioner - this stuff is pretty forceful, at least in comparison to qigong, in my opinion.

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, chidaruma said:

 

 

That's all true, and my teachers warned me about doing it too forcefully and on the physical level, without integrating it with the rest of the spiritual practice, but even taking into consideration that I personally might not be the ideal practitioner - this stuff is pretty forceful, at least in comparison to qigong, in my opinion.

Usually the forceful nature is when one is learning - with time it becomes effortless. If it is not becoming easier/effortless, it usually means that you’re doing something wrong.
 

Depending the qigong being practiced, people can put in extra force (out of habit) to emphasis the concentration aspect. The force could be physical or mental, or both.