helpfuldemon

The Grades of Initiation

Recommended Posts

On 9/3/2022 at 6:13 PM, Lairg said:

In my experience, the logos/god of this solar system is a god of love, as is the logos of this galaxy.

 

Some galaxies however have logoi of intelligence and a few have logoi of will.  Mostly however the galactic logoi are gods of love since our universal logos is a god of love.

 

Thus the galactic process is to learn to control intelligence/energy, and then relationship and eventually  intent.  Earth humans mostly follow that pattern.

 

 

 

 

I think that love is the first lesson, that we learn what is good from it, and that we master right thinking and action.  Beyond love is logic and law.  But what good is being human without love?  I am sad, because in me love is dying.  If sorrow is wasted, then so is love; for certainly we sorrow because of it.  Now I am left with logic and Will, and my Will is not very strong, and my logic is not very developed.  Oh now I mourn for the death of love!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In other words ..... ooops !  I made a big blunder  up there ... I'll just cover it up by affirming that I did mean what I just denied .

 

:D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorrow is how we cope with loss, or the awareness of something tragic.  It doesn't change anything but it is something we do nonetheless.  I wonder why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have experienced two sorrows.  Mostly they were felt in the solar plexus.

 

But when I was caught between two women I felt the pain of one in my heart.

 

Eventually I understood that solar plexus (emotional) sorrow is of the personality - while heart sorrow is because something is going wrong at soul level.

 

These days I take little notice of emotional sorrow

 

Light from the heart can heal both

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Eventually I understood that solar plexus (emotional) sorrow is of the personality - while heart sorrow is because something is going wrong at soul level.

 

What about the connection of sorrow and lungs as in TCM?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

Sorrow is how we cope with loss, or the awareness of something tragic.  It doesn't change anything but it is something we do nonetheless.  I wonder why?

 

Ah I see , thanks for explaining which particular type of weather comes when people are sorrowful .

 

That really helped your 'theory' .

 

And if you dont know why people sorrow after loss or tragedy .... well  ....     :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

 

What about the connection of sorrow and lungs as in TCM?

 

Quite so.  It is more correct to say that emotional pain is experienced in the solar plexus and important pain in the heart, while grief is commonly stored as a blue-grey cloud in the lungs.

 

I was at lunch with a group today and an older man was unable to smile for the photos.  I could see that he was struggling with solar plexus difficulties and it seemed to be connected with his father.  Later his friend told me that he had had a difficult relationship with his father. 

 

He has only modest grief energy in the lungs but seems still grieving emotionally every time I see him.

 

 

Edited by Lairg
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that the Gods know sorrow for us, though it appears they do not take action, I have seen that they can and do act, though why and how I don't know.  In my life, the Gods have been malicious, but I think they can be merciful as well.  That is why when I pray, I only give thanks for their mercy.  Asking for favors is folly, asking for revenge is folly.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/14/2022 at 11:05 PM, helpfuldemon said:

See the source image

 

reality check:  are you able to decode the inscriptions on this diagram??

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Abyss is more than just a diagram or codes.  It is personal, as well, and what you deal with in it is dependent on your experiences prior.  I didn't have much occult knowledge so when this all happened to me it was quite a surprise.  I studied after I fell, but I was being afflicted so badly that I don't think I learned what I could have if I had been normal.  Eventually I tossed all learning aside so I could regain myself.  I posted that diagram because I had the serpent climb my tree and bite my head, and I had the sword pierce my right side of my head.  I think most descriptions and explanations fail this experience.  I wonder how many have actually gone through what I went through.  We like to think we can neatly package this information, but it is all varied.  I only know a little about it really, even though I experienced it first hand.  From what I can see, I think it is the merging of a device that is like your Will with your body, and then a person is in a sort of balance with their Will and desire.  I don't think it confers anything special other than this but who knows?  I could be wrong.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the answer would be 'no' then .

 

By the way , that diagram does not even show the abyss . . . .   'The serpent climbed  your  tree   '  ... you say  ?

 

Did he offer you an apple ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's funny, because people don't like to validate that I understand certain occult things because I don't use the words that are written to justify my knowledge.  I only have pieces of knowledge that lead me to the occult explanations.  People like Nungali, who never went through this, like to remind me that I have a psychiatric condition.  Well, if you went through it, you'd need medicine too.  I'm not a scholar, and I suppose that I should stop referencing these traditions to explain my condition, because people just want to criticize my knowledge and they don't listen to the gems that I have, they just see what I don't have. not that I have much.  I mostly write here so I can come to understand what has befallen me.  It's not like I went to some ascended master and they pushed me into the Abyss, or awakened my kundalini for me.  This just sort of happened to me on my own research.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It's funny, because people don't like to validate that I understand certain occult things because I don't use the words that are written to justify my knowledge.

 

You "don't use the words that are written to justify my knowledge. "  ?  

 

How else would anyone know  anything about what another poster  'understands'    on an internet forum aside from 'the words that are written ' ? 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

  I only have pieces of knowledge that lead me to the occult explanations. 

 

Thats right , it is piecemeal  ,  confused , cluttered together  and not making much sense because you have been trying to use that as an explanation as to what happened to you .

 

The fact is , MANY people have practised magick and not had the experience you have .

 

However many people have had psychosis without anything to do with magick and have had similar experiences to what you have had .

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

People like Nungali, who never went through this, like to remind me that I have a psychiatric condition. 

 

No, I dont 'like'  going around 'reminding' people they have a psychiatric condition ... it isnt a 'like' .  I  will however continually remind those with such a condition that they have it , when they ascribe it to other things,  imagine they are doing magic and offer wrong and even dangerous advice to others .

 

One day you might even thank me, like   'K'   did  .   I watched his psychos unfold daily and I watched others feed it  ( with their own part psychosis ). It got pretty bad, to  the the extent that his wife was getting really worried ( and snowed under with all the extra responsibilities as he had abandoned them ) and his little kids freaked out because Daddy was acting so strange .

 

One day he came to me ,  wild eyed  and  aggressive  ( VERY unusual for him ) and demanded the 'truth'   ( he is Japanese and doesnt speak English well , so that complicates things )  ;  " I know you worked on making Matrix film.... tell me once and for all ... IS IT TRUE ... is it REAL STORY  ,  are we all in Matrix ?  "

 

Okay, I can match that , I pumped up my own aggression and got in his face ; " NO !  Stop being stupid  you idiot !  Its a film, made on a fiction story,  OK? !   Stop listening to crap and idiots, go and get some proper help  , your wife is worried about you , she was crying yesterday, your beautiful little girls are almost scared of their own Daddy  ! "  That last one put the boot in ... you could see the realisation rock him.

 

He did  start treatment and got a lot better, then he comes up to me  "  Thank you    (bow)... you know , when I was not very well, many people did not help me , I was confused in my mind and when I ask a question of others around here   like " I think I now have hole in my head , maybe aliens do it ? " and they say  " Maybe . "    I ask , " What if I am in Matrix cocoon and nothing real ?'  and they tell me 'Anything possible . "     Then someone else tells me giant lizards rule earth but look like people .  ....  But when I ask you , you  tell me to stop it, get help, remind me about my children ....  thank you  ( bow ) " .

 

Now, the latest I have heard about this guy  , as he moved   ( to another place with   'alternative ' people - God help him !  ) is that he is 'getting back into his  roots '  .  I do kobudo and he is Japanese, I showed him one of my plain wooden  swords (boken ) and asked him if he wanted a go ..... NO NO  NO  ! and held his hands away from it .  He seemed scared of it .  He never showed me, over several years, and before his psychotic episodes  any interest or ability  whatsoever in martial arts  .   I have worked with him ( and he is a good worker and works hard  for long hours ) and observed him closely ... no , not   a martial artist .

 

I asked these others  what roots and was told  ' he is a Samurai ' .     OMG !    Aside from that being impossible nowadays , he might have a  family lineage going back to those times  but he never mentioned it or showed it .  When I asked what they meant , they said he has now got 'his swords'  ( 'Samurai' swords can be easily bought here  ) and has started 'practising again '  ..... again ???? 

 

These people  know nothing of that tradition, nor martial arts  and think its great and are encouraging him 'to find his roots' ... who knows what the hell he is doing now ?  Running around the forest screaming and slashing with a sword ?

 

lets hope his psychosis has not returned  .... and he 'cuts loose ' .... and if he HAS ...

 

Guess which 'little black duck ' .... 'nasty man' ..... the guy who picks on the poor mentally confused , aka  'Nungers'  ... is going to have to go to that place and disarm him  ?

 

I have had to do that before  with others ; knives , guns ... even a garden fork ( nasty weapon that ! ).... several times.  My 'karma' I guess .

 

Sorry 'helpful demon'    ... your stuck with me    ;) 

 

 

if you like, you can see me as a type of   guardian  angel .  :)

 

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Well, if you went through it, you'd need medicine too. 

 

Of course I would mate !  I am not claiming some type of 'mental invulnerability' here . I made that clear with you right at the beginning  ( but you often forget stuff or  refuse to take in)  I also gave it reference to  valid clinical trials and a paper on it - I guess that was ignored too * .

 

The gist is, these types of episodes, or a more 'ongoing state' can happen to anyone , for a variety of reasons ...  just like your liver or stomach could start giving you trouble . And these people may seem very normal in other regards :

 

*  " All the people involved hallucinated. They included chronic schizophrenics, alcoholics, brain-damaged and senile persons. The subjects of this study came to the attention of friends or the public because of unusual behavior. The average layman's picture of the mentally ill as raving lunatics is far from reality. Most of these people have become entangled in inner processes and simply fail to manage their lives well. In the hospital most have freedom of the grounds and the average visitor is impressed that, aside from occasional odd bits of behavior, the patients have most of their powers and appear like almost everyone else. 

 

*  https://selfdefinition.org/hearing-voices/articles/wilson-van-dusen-presence-of-spirits-in-madness.htm

 

( my emphasis  -  I also have noticed this 'in the field' and in my work in a public hospital, including the Psychiatric Ward )

 

Its not a judgement on your condition itself , but on the results of it, what you ascribe it to and the resultant 'magical advice' you draw from that and feel to project it onto others  .

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm not a scholar, and I suppose that I should stop referencing these traditions to explain my condition, because people just want to criticize my knowledge and they don't listen to the gems that I have, they just see what I don't have.

 

Well of course that makes sense !   If you didnt use those terms and did talk about your condition  - in an attempt to navigate through it - I would have no need to ' keep my eye  on you' in the esoteric forum .  I would do the same if you where  offering people martial arts advice and you where using THAT to explain your condition and at the same time , made it obvious ( to those that actually know stuff ) that you didnt know or understand much about it .... or if it was engineering advice  .... or yoga ... or anything .

 

The thing IS hd .... the subject  you chose  DOES HAVE a potential to draw other confused and unbalanced people in and have the same horrible experiences you had / have .   Thats why a 'helpful demon '  needs an  'Unholy Guardian Angel '    ;) 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Not that I have much.  I mostly write here so I can come to understand what has befallen me. 

 

And mostly what I write here is to help you understand what has befallen you  ... but sometimes , your 'little demon' likes to lead you away from that ..... they dont like being 'exposed in the light '

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

It's not like I went to some ascended master and they pushed me into the Abyss, or awakened my kundalini for me. 

 

Ascended master    .... < wince> 

 

 

14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

This just sort of happened to me on my own research.  

 

I dont think it  'happened to you on your own research '  ... I'm not even sure what that means . 

 

However it is very common for people with a psyche disturbance to seek a magical or fantastic cause ... not many go ; "Oh yeah, doc says I have a .... which makes me act like this sometimes ."  The nature of the 'demon' is to deny the subliminal  and seek  the fantastic, magical, occult, grandiose  and irrational   explanations  ..... anything that can affirm its separation ... rather than its integration into the psyche .

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had particular events occur that led me to believe that I was undergoing an initiation into the 7=4.  Just because it's not common doesn't mean that it didn't happen to me.  

 

It doesn't matter though, really, because it was mostly just tortured thoughts.  I can't claim to have been aided by the voices that came to me; it doesn't appear to be a quest for Wisdom, though that is what I undertook.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly !   Certain events    ' led you to believe '    .

 

Even a real initiation into 7 + 4 GD is not  'common'   .   It isnt the rarity of the experience of  -  GD initiation as real ones are just as rare .

 

 

The experience being uncommon is NOT part of the consideration , so you can tell your 'excuse demon' that one doesnt work . What will he throw up next as an excuse or a dodge ? 

 

But you are right .... it does not matter  about this imagined 'grades of initiation' you think you are going through ....    regaining your stability and your  quest for wisdom is what  matters .

 

 

 

 

An initiation into 7 - 4 is a Golden Dawn ceremony  and describes a level specific of their curriculum  and also

 

" The Aspirant to a Grade received instruction on the metaphysical meaning of each of these Elements and had to pass a written examination and demonstrate certain skills to receive admission to that Grade. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Nungali said:

Exactly !   Certain events    ' led you to believe '    .

 

Even a real initiation into 7 + 4 GD is not  'common'   .   It isnt the rarity of the experience of  -  GD initiation as real ones are just as rare .

 

 

The experience being uncommon is NOT part of the consideration , so you can tell your 'excuse demon' that one doesnt work . What will he throw up next as an excuse or a dodge ? 

 

But you are right .... it does not matter  about this imagined 'grades of initiation' you think you are going through ....    regaining your stability and your  quest for wisdom is what  matters .

 

 

 

 

An initiation into 7 - 4 is a Golden Dawn ceremony  and describes a level specific of their curriculum  and also

 

" The Aspirant to a Grade received instruction on the metaphysical meaning of each of these Elements and had to pass a written examination and demonstrate certain skills to receive admission to that Grade. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

As with most adherents to a tradition, you lack the ability to perceive truth outside of it.  You have repeatedly failed to read what I say about my experience of magick, and only look for what I do not know about it.  It is true that I was an outsider into magick when I had my experiences, but that doesn't mean that I didn't practice a sort of magick on my own, which led me to an initiation that is written of in the Golden Dawn and Thelema material.  You like to disqualify my person as a magical entity because I wasn't a student of your precious Crowley, well let me tell you something, Crowley didn't invent magic, and neither did he know all that there is to know about it, or contacting the Divine.  you're like an devote; blind to the experiences of the outsider.  If you read my posts you will find that I did take an oath to aid mankind, you will find that I do discuss wisdom and law, and you will find that I do offer some take on magic, though I have yet to talk about it that much.  I'm not saying I have all the answers, I'm not saying I have new revelations, I'm just sharing my experiences with it- so stop naysaying what I know or who I am please, because it's a waste of your time.  Yes, I have been sick, ever heard of Choronzon?  You think these things are just myths?  There is truth to myth always.

 

 

And another thing, on other posts you seem to poo poo the idea of magic on a personal level on one hand, and then promote it on the other.  For as much information as you know, I find you to have incomplete ideas and contradict yourself on numerous levels.  Why don't you just sit back and aid us like a good magician, and try not to throw in your personal barbs?  I will do the same. Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of that detracts from what I said about your claimed GD initiation  though does it .  Looks like I hit a real 'sore spot' with that one ?

 

I liked this bit the best : " You contradict yourself " .   coming from you that one day warns all not to practice magic,  say you do not believe in it and then claim a GD initiation .

 

The only reason you see a contradiction is due to your insistence I am a  Crowley devotee  (when its you that cant stop writing about him    and YOU who initiated all the 'Crowley stuff'  ) and when I say I am not, you see that as a contradiction .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I liked this bit the best : " You contradict yourself " .   coming from you that one day warns all not to practice magic,  say you do not believe in it and then claim a GD initiation .

 

 

Correction:  I no longer believe in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Initiation in Magic is real thing. It is not passed through "books" and to random people. Thus, you can never learn Magic from reading books or from listening to lectures. Same reason, that you can never learn Magic from someone who is not a Magus himself and not Initiated.

The process involves Master transmitting non-verbally qualities and keys to practice directly onto students mental fields.
A practice that otherwise would not be possible to make and doors/path that would never open, thus becomes possible to walk.
Not everyone is getting initiated of those who seek training, as the traditional selection process is rational and has strict requirements.
Applicant has to show all the right qualities and prerequisites, and be capable of doing practices.
Someone who shows mental instability for example or lack of ethical conduct would not be given initiation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All Gods and magic are suspect.  I took an oath to aid mankind prior to my experiences.  I thought that i would be helped in this quest, but all I found was torture and distraction from actual learning.  The Gods were cruel and uncaring.  Magic failed me.  I had no protection. 

 

I was implanted with wires and overtaken by them.  I was assailed with visions and hallucinations, distractions.  I went through incredible physical pain and mental trauma and stress.  I didn't get any answers from it, only more questions.  And the questions were endless....  

 

I don't think I am special in terms of a body that is in line with Heaven.  I don't think this experience needed to happen, but I could be wrong, I may be in a more advanced state of beholding the Divine than other people.  I don't think it matters though.  

 

One could say that I am important to the Gods because I heard them speak, or had visions, but I do not feel like this is any privilege after what I have been through.  I don't have any answers about the Gods and magic, or Heaven and reincarnation; these things could all be fantasy.  All i really got from my encounter with the Gods is my destruction.

Edited by helpfuldemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, helpfuldemon said:

The Gods were cruel and uncaring.  Magic failed me.  I had no protection. 

 

... , but I could be wrong, I may be in a more advanced state of beholding the Divine than other people.

 

One could say that I am important to the Gods because I heard them speak, or had visions, but I do not feel like this is any privilege after what I have been through. 

 

Sorry, I'm gonna do this again demon ...

 

apps_7679.9007199266662666.e9ee3e24-1d18-4b8d-b1e6-7e923af8bdfa.jpeg.2e165505e3f98f89adfcf0e58d6c974f.jpeg

 

Slap of love!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

All Gods and magic are suspect.  I took an oath to aid mankind prior to my experiences.  I thought that i would be helped in this quest, but all I found was torture and distraction from actual learning.  The Gods were cruel and uncaring.  Magic failed me.  I had no protection. 

 

For me, it's better to understand these powers you encountered as Angels or Divine Laws.  Yes they will be uncaring and possibly cruel.  They are created to perform a purpose.  Nothing more, nothing less.  They have no will of their own, they mindlessly do their job.

 

The other thing is, these pursuits are not intended to be solitary.  There's strong protections when working within a community.  In the past, occult topics were passed on orally and the initiate was chosen based on their mental emotional and ethical stability.  They were over 40, settled down in a marriage with children.  They were well grounded individuals.  Unfortunately, occult topics are in print available to anyone who wants to learn about it.  The protections in the past are null and void.

 

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I was implanted with wires and overtaken by them.  I was assailed with visions and hallucinations, distractions.  I went through incredible physical pain and mental trauma and stress.  I didn't get any answers from it, only more questions.  And the questions were endless....  

 

I don't think I am special in terms of a body that is in line with Heaven.  I don't think this experience needed to happen, but I could be wrong, I may be in a more advanced state of beholding the Divine than other people.  I don't think it matters though.  

 

One could say that I am important to the Gods because I heard them speak, or had visions, but I do not feel like this is any privilege after what I have been through.  I don't have any answers about the Gods and magic, or Heaven and reincarnation; these things could all be fantasy.  All i really got from my encounter with the Gods is my destruction.

 

Something to keep in mind... maybe :)  The divine chariot goes up and down.  It's a lot easier to hitch a ride going down, and then go up, rather than jumping on while the chariot is rising.  It sounds to me like you descended instead of ascended and you weren't prepared for what was waiting for you in the abyss.  The good news is that the divine chariot operates on a schedule, it's a processional.  So, even if you're stuck in the abyss, there should still be a way for to ascend.  But you're at a disadvantage because most don't start their journey from where you are right now.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites