What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Yes, but what is your motivation for pointing such a thing out? 

If I believed you it would 100% be jealousy, that's true.  But I don't, so maybe it's just general dickheadedness 😂

 

And I'd feel this way about anyone making that claim, simply cause everyone from Lu Dongbin on down was said to have needed a guide.  I think the lore goes that Gautama made the leap himself at the end, but even he had teachers help him most of the way (and iirc he's said to be the last one who's gonna do this in the current Yuga).  

 

But as you say, I'm just a guy sharing idle thoughts through the internet for all I know you could be the second coming (and if you are - get tf off Daobums and do something with your life!)

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

If I believed you it would 100% be jealousy, that's true.  But I don't, so maybe it's just general dickheadedness 😂

 

And I'd feel this way about anyone making that claim, simply cause everyone from Lu Dongbin on down was said to have needed a guide.  I think the lore goes that Gautama made the leap himself at the end, but even he had teachers help him most of the way (and iirc he's said to be the last one who's gonna do this in the current Yuga).  

 

But as you say, I'm just a guy sharing idle thoughts through the internet for all I know you could be the second coming (and if you are - get tf off Daobums and do something with your life!)

Oh god no, I am not the second coming. That’d be quite awful.

 

Yes, every student needs a teacher no matter how much discernment you have. That’s because the methods don’t simply appear in your head. Also, a teacher is able to see your energetic state when you lack the ability. I do not think anyone can jump to Yang Shen without a teacher.

 

Trust me, I won’t be posting here much longer. Quite honestly, I just like interacting with @freeform

 

He is going to reach the elixir in this life. 

[Taoist Texts]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:34 AM, Netero said:

techniques of "Silent Sitting"/Numinous Mind,

 

On 12/2/2022 at 1:34 AM, Netero said:

"The Foundation" comes from a notion of detachment 

 

On 12/2/2022 at 1:34 AM, Netero said:

I speculate that this is a major difference between genuine Neidan and the more popular form of Qi Gong. Leaving me with this: why is it important to have a Numinous Mind before undertaking such practices? 

I understand you say that a detached mind is needed to practice neidan which is correct. And the answer as to why it is important is in asking - 'detached from what?''. Obviously detached from the external world meaning not thinking about it. You cant do an internal practice while still thinking about the external world. In fact you cannot do any work while thinking about something else. If i do carpentry while thinking about yesterday's game i will mess up my carpentry, i will not be able to concentrate on it, right? So thats one simple reason why its important to have a detached mind: the mind should be detached from the external to concentrate on the internal.

 

(of course in neidan the detached mind has a secret energetic meaning but thats the next step in understanding why it is important)

 

(a note on Numinous Mind in Neiye: this expression comes from the incorrect translation quoted above.

On 11/28/2022 at 11:45 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身]; (tr. Roth 1999: 70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye#Basic_concepts

 

But there is no such expression in the original which just says 神 'shen' (spirit) which is something quite different.)

Edited December 3, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[Master Logray]

17 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion, but I’m pretty sure this is wrong as well. 

First off, in my definition, moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is Neidan. This would place Neidan’s creation back before the beginning of the universe.

 

This universe was created by a heavenly immortal. That heavenly immortal was most likely a spiritual immortal before that. So, Neidan, in the spiritual sense, has been here for a long long time.

 

Now, if you’re discussing humanity, sure, the creation of the elixir could be more modern than thousands of years, however, even if all humans were born at the Yang Shen level, there is still alchemical work to be done to rise from Yang Shen to spiritual immortal and actualize Yang body.

 

In pre history, Neidan still existed. It may just not have been necessary to transmute yin Shen to Yang Shen in earlier Yugas.

 

Upon the creation of the universe, there is a spiritual big bang of sorts where Spiritual immortals come into existence. Neidan exists even here. The process of moving from spiritual immortal to heavenly immortal is still Neidan.

 

 

 

 

 

The knowledge of Chi could be thousands of years old.  The quest and technique for immortality is also very long.  But Neidan is a "recent" development.  The word "Neidan" first appeared in text about 1700 years ago.   The Neidan system came into being in the Tang dynasty which is around AD6-900. 

 

The universe was not created by an immortal - according to Taoist.  

 

Immortal or Xian, unfortunately, is the lowest form of celestial beings.  There are many levels above it, let say Shen, gods....  They are mostly born to be what they are.  While Xian is a stepping stone for humanity turning into celestial being.   Neidan is the most widely used system to turn a person into a super-human and crossing the threshold to become another.  But it is not the only way.  

 

Therefore it is why @freeform says it is a technology.   But I think its aim is not solely spiritual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

28 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The word "Neidan" first appeared in text about 1700 years ago

as a buddhist notion;)

Edited December 3, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[freeform]

19 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I am confused by your definition of Neidan, as I am pretty sure it’s impossible to separate internal alchemy from spiritual growth and call it a ‘technology.’

 

For example, fusing the Refined Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi to form the elixir is alchemical and definitely spiritual.

 

Going from Earth immortal to spiritual immortal, that is still Neidan in my definition. Most definitely a spiritual process. Not to mention Spiritual Immortal to Heavenly Immortal 

 

 

Alchemy is just a word… NeiDan is just a concept…

 

The methods we use are just methods.

 

Very clever, sophisticated methods - but still they’re methods. They are invariably limited in some way or another. They’re kind of like training wheels.

 

You'll see that real progress comes not just after you’ve mastered the method… but after you no longer need a method.

 

We do all sorts of stuff with our breathing, our posture, our mental focus just to sink the qi… but once the qi can sink, all those methods are largely irrelevant… in fact over-focusing on the method itself will stop you from being able to sink the qi!

 

So when I say that the process itself is not spiritual or sacred - this is what I mean.

 

Of course being disciplined, rigorous and thorough in your practice is important - but you’ll start to notice that once the transformation starts occurring by itself, you realise that the practice was just the proverbial finger pointing at the moon… 

 

What I think @Wilhelm is saying is that we’re all just barely evolved apes having our best go at stealing fire from the gods… 

 

The methods, stories, theories and so on are very special… but they’re just the scribblings of some other barely evolved apes that actually managed to steal fire from the gods - and they left a barely perceptible breadcrumb down the path they walked.

 

All these different levels of spiritual, heavenly, earthly immortality, all these semi-mythological histories for these practices - they’re all just attempting to classify the unclassifiable. 
 

So worshiping these scribblings, barely perceptible breadcrumbs and so on is silly. I mean they’re important… but what’s more important is your own practice, your own evolution.

 

I rarely talk in much depth about immortality and all that sort of stuff. I mention what I’ve been taught or what I’ve read - but that’s all just speculation - way off in the distance, where I’m looking is right here - what am I actually doing, what’s going on with my own practice… 

 

Enthusiasm is great - but as we continue walking down the path we realise that yesterdays certainties must fall away for us to grow. 
 

[edit] What all this is pointing to is humility. That’s the underlying quality that Daoism is famous for but is largely lost. You get humbled over and over and over as you walk the path - and it’s either a pleasant process of letting go into freedom - or it’s a process where your most treasured aspects are ripped away from you… Humility is what makes the difference.

Edited December 3, 2022 by freeform

[Master Logray]

I happen to skim through a book, in English, about Taoism and Neidan.  It has some interesting comments that I would like to share.  I can't remember the name.  I expand a little.

 

Neidan is about Freedom.

 

free from death. free from sickness.

 

free from economic pressure.

 

free from the predetermined destiny, free from fate imposed by heaven.

 

free from dynasty and its corruptions and oppression.  Immortal can talk to the emperor as an equal.  

 

free from the restrictive and suffocating Confucian social order, free from social norm, bias, discrimination.

 

Some of these may not be as important these days.  Yet the yearning to have breakthrough in one's life is not merely about some Siddhis or easy travel when there was no plane.  It has deeper meanings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barnaby]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Of course being disciplined, rigorous and thorough in your practice is important - but you’ll start to notice that once the transformation starts occurring by itself, you realise that the practice was just the proverbial finger pointing at the moon… 

 

So true. And it's only when you finally manage to let go of that discipline and rigour – and just relax into it – that you integrate what the practice has accomplished.

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

What all this is pointing to is humility. That’s the underlying quality that Daoism is famous for but is largely lost.

 

Word

[MetaDao]

@freeformAll facts.  No cap. On god

 

It is strange talking with those who have reached the elixir stage because they are still apes, it seems to me. Maybe just a bit more evolved, but they can still have bias, let’s say talking about other teachers for example.

 

In an attempt to classify the unclassifiable, it seems to me that Shen Xian is the true stage where our inner ape finally disappears, as there is no mind.
 

Yet, I cannot comprehend why a Shen Xian would downgrade itself to become ape again. It is a mystery that I guess doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

In fact, why does creating harmony between heaven and earth even matter if at some point you transcend even the concepts of heaven and earth? If there are many universes, what’s the special thing about this particular one? It would seem that there is nothing special about this universe at all. I’m not just talking about the physical universe but the formless as well. 
 

I thought I practiced for a grand reason. I will perfect myself one day at a time and preserve the path of alchemy without bias to create harmony between heaven and earth to allow more humans to achieve Yang Shen again. To achieve freedom. Yet, I am not so sure. Sometimes I wonder if slipping back into the tides of fate and normalcy would really be so bad.

 

We already have Shen Xian. What’s one more? We already have Heavenly immortals. What’s one more? In the end, I am still left wondering, why practice at all? 
 

Sure, I can say I practice for the betterment of all and to help others gain freedom. It may in fact be partially true. I can say I practice to understand both Heaven and Earth so that I may come to perceive how to create harmony between the two to help all of humanity.

 

Yet, when I understand more, why does this particular universe even matter? I don’t matter at all, therefore, it should get along well enough without me. So, why practice? I have no interest in siddhi. My health will get along well enough till I die. Maybe I should just smoke weed, party, and fuck like a normal ape. Is that so bad?

 

Instead, here I am. Still practicing. Am I choosing to practice or is it still fate that controls me? I am unsure. I guess I’ll just keep swimming and see where it leads

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[Barnaby]

Just reacting to stuff in real time and thinking out loud:

 

If we could attain full consciousness that there is nothing special about us – that we are in fact exactly the same as any other being or object – in that we are all ephemeral manifestations of a fundamental energy which can never disappear, but which is instead continually transmuting into something different, would that not in itself be a form of immortality?   

[MetaDao]

19 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Just reacting to stuff in real time and thinking out loud:

 

If we could attain full consciousness that there is nothing special about us – that we are in fact exactly the same as any other being or object – in that we are all ephemeral manifestations of a fundamental energy which can never disappear, but which is instead continually transmuting into something different, would that not in itself be a form of immortality?   

That’s realization. Even then, you cannot realize such a thing or a similar such thing without experiencing it. I think such ideas are both true and false at the same time. Sure, we are all made of the same ‘stuff’, but that does not mean we are all the same.

 

Now, the labels of important and unimportant. Those, I feel like, can be transcended. It does not mean we are all the same. It means we are all on the same level of importance. Sage or otherwise. Of course your mind will reject this.

How could an earth immortal be just as important as a homeless man? To the normal, ape like mind, it seems like that cannot be true. To the Sage, it is.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

That’s realization. Even then, you cannot realize such a thing or a similar such thing without experiencing it. I think such ideas are both true and false at the same time. Sure, we are all made of the same ‘stuff’, but that does not mean we are all the same.

 

Now, the labels of important and unimportant. Those, I feel like, can be transcended. It does not mean we are all the same. It means we are all on the same level of importance. Sage or otherwise. Of course your mind will reject this.

How could an earth immortal be just as important as a homeless man? To the normal, ape like mind, it seems like that cannot be true. To the Sage, it is.

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

33 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Just reacting to stuff in real time and thinking out loud:

 

If we could attain full consciousness that there is nothing special about us – that we are in fact exactly the same as any other being or object – in that we are all ephemeral manifestations of a fundamental energy which can never disappear, but which is instead continually transmuting into something different, would that not in itself be a form of immortality?   

It seems to me immortality is an unchangeable specie which lives forever. However, if we continually transmuting into something different, then, I wouldn't say that is  immortality. For example, inter race marriages is transmuting the offspring into something different and passed on from generation to generation. Thus I wouldn't call this a form of immortality.

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

That’s realization. Even then, you cannot realize such a thing or a similar such thing without experiencing it. I think such ideas are both true and false at the same time. Sure, we are all made of the same ‘stuff’, but that does not mean we are all the same.

 

Now, the labels of important and unimportant. Those, I feel like, can be transcended. It does not mean we are all the same. It means we are all on the same level of importance. Sage or otherwise. Of course your mind will reject this.

How could an earth immortal be just as important as a homeless man? To the normal, ape like mind, it seems like that cannot be true. To the Sage, it is.

 

 

 

Everything, stone, root and leaf,  animals and humans alike are an expression of 'consciousness' ( for want of a better word, DAO is unspeakable after all.

 

You cannot experience that, as when that 'realization' hits the experiencer is gone, but there is awareness and the memory of that awareness.

 

so yes, were all the same, you are me and I am that lousy dog on the corner too. All equally unimportant, strawdogs.( or dogs of grass.)

 

Quote

Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with.

 

https://tao-in-you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-5/

 

The perspective of I, me, mine, that you're inhabiting gets lost, it's null and void.

An earth immortal ( whatever that is) is equally unimportant as a homeless man. The difference might be that the immortal is aware of that were the homeless man is not.

 

(btw, from the perspective of I, me, mine... I do not think a homeless man is worth less then someone who has accumulated enough wealth to acquire a home, I've known very worthy homeless people and lousy guys with a lot of money. On the ordinary plane the acquiring of wealth has no relation with morality)

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

You cannot experience that, as when that 'realization' hits the experiencer is gone, but there is awareness and the memory of that awareness.

Awareness is the thing that experiences. You is thing that realizes 

[MetaDao]

5 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

were all the same

Are we though? Are you sure? Who is we? What makes us the same? The fact that we are conscious? We still have differences.

 

How can we be the same if we are different?

 

Our personal natures are all different. Our pre-heaven nature is the thing that is the same.

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[Barnaby]

55 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

However, if we continually transmuting into something different, then, I wouldn't say that is  immortality.

 

Yeah, I was more referring to the full consciousness of that, but it's not a fully-formed thought 

[ChiDragon]

40 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Our pre-heaven nature is the thing that is the same

This cannot be true if one was born blind or deformed!

[MetaDao]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This cannot be true if one was born blind or deformed!

In that case, it is the Ming that is different.

 

Yuan Shen remains the same. Yuan Shen simplified is awareness. A blind man is still aware. A person born with no legs is still aware. It is their Ming that is different than fully functioning humans.

 

So, humans are not all the same. We may have the same ingredients that make up our being, but the quality of these ingredients varies from person to person. 
 

Does this make those with better ingredients more important though? In capitalistic society, people seem to value those that are ‘superior’ on a higher scale. Yet Dao does not.

 

You might then say, well what if Jesus is born again?! If Jesus is still in the reincarnation cycle and there truly will be a ‘second coming’, surely the person with Jesus’s soul is more important than a man born in poverty without any legs who can contribute nothing to society. Wrong. They are equally unimportant.

 

Again, this brings me to the point. Does spiritual growth really matter? Or is it simply a path we take when we grow bored of mundane living?

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

as a buddhist notion;)

Where did you get this notion about neidan?  Neidan was originated from the Taoist notion to develop a method to have longevity. Neidan is mainly a Qigong breathing practice method.

[MetaDao]

9 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Neidan is mainly a Qigong breathing practice method.

Use some discernment to figure out what is wrong with this sentence please

 

Firstly, how is Neidan a Qigong method?

 

Secondly, there are Neidan lineages without a single breathing method. Breath changes automatically when certain stages are reached.

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

In that case, it is the Ming that is different.

 

Yuan Shen remains the same. Yuan Shen simplified is awareness. A blind man is still aware. A person born with no legs is still aware. It is their Ming that is different than fully functioning humans

Yuen Shen, 元神(original soul) remains the same, yes. The way of humans was born is their Ming(命), thus it cannot be changed.

[MetaDao]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yuen Shen, 元神(original soul) remains the same, yes. The way of humans was born is their Ming(命), thus it cannot be changed.

Correct, except Ming can be changed to a certain extent using Ming gong

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Use some discernment to figure out what is wrong with this sentence please

 

Firstly, how is Neidan a Qigong method?

 

Secondly, there are Neidan lineages without a single breathing method. Breath changes automatically when certain stages are reached.

Have you read the Chinese version of Neidan? Without the special technique of breathing, Neidan cannot be accomplished. However, without the special breathing technique, breath will not and cannot change automatically when certain stages are reached.

[ChiDragon]

16 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Correct, except Ming can be changed to a certain extent using Ming gong

Yes, Ming has two meanings. Ming gong(命功) is part of the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming, 性命雙修.

Edited December 3, 2022 by ChiDragon