Vedic Christianity

[forestofemptiness]

I thought this was an outstanding talk that combines the insights of Vedanta with the Christianity. We have a Christian who converted to Vedanta, and rather than losing his Christianity found it very much enhanced. It is also very practical, very loving, and spoken well from the heart. 

 

He also raises interesting questions about dual-belonging: can one be a member of two religions? His answer may surprise you (especially since it come in the second lecture ). 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Going off on a tangent, I always found 'Buddislam' - a fictitious creed in Frank Herbert's Dune universe -, weirdly intriguing. Probably because it was created through the merger of two (apparently) so divergent religions as Zen Buddhism and Islam - at a time thousands of years in our future, of course.

[Lairg]

48 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

at a time thousands of years in our future

 

Or half a million years in our past

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Going off on a tangent, I always found 'Buddislam' - a fictitious creed in Frank Herbert's Dune universe -, weirdly intriguing. Probably because it was created through the merger of two (apparently) so divergent religions as Zen Buddhism and Islam - at a time thousands of years in our future, of course.

I would describe my current beliefs as Zensunni

[Nungali]

They all a mash ... even going far back .

 

Buddhism came to Tibet to Influence Bon to make Tibetan Buddhism, but way before that, a Buddha , before there was Buddhism, went to Tibet  to teach and make native Bon more 'Buddhist'. And he probably got those traditions from Bo - Siberian shamanism , which had certain very advanced spiritual teachings and practices , which travelled down into Central Asia   where the 'Masdayasni ' religion was established , fell to 'bad ways' and had to be reformed by Zoroaster  into Zoroastrianism , which bought back in the good principles  ( which lasted within it until the fall of the Persian Empire )  OR got a bit different cultural version and turned into Vedanta and crossed down into NW India .... eventually manifesting Buddhism, that went back up to Tibet .  

 

Then there are the Siberian  'Good and Bad'  Bon - Black or White Tengri  ( the white where the ones spreading these teachings , the black, sorcerers doing evil works  ) , possibly the seed source of the Zoroastrian concentration of good and bad powers of spirits and 'the mind'  ( principles and practices on how to develop and maintain 'good mind' ) .  Ahura and Div / Daeva  in Avestas , Asuru and Deva in Vedas. 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

53 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I would describe my current beliefs as Zensunni

 

I'm a Gonzo Daoist

 

Spoiler

 

and Dharma Punk.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Earl Grey

[Nungali]

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

They all a mash ... even going far back .

 

Buddhism came to Tibet to Influence Bon to make Tibetan Buddhism, but way before that, a Buddha , before there was Buddhism, went to Tibet  to teach and make native Bon more 'Buddhist'. And he probably got those traditions from Bo - Siberian shamanism , which had certain very advanced spiritual teachings and practices , which travelled down into Central Asia   where the 'Masdayasni ' religion was established , fell to 'bad ways' and had to be reformed by Zoroaster  into Zoroastrianism , which bought back in the good principles  ( which lasted within it until the fall of the Persian Empire )  OR got a bit different cultural version and turned into Vedanta and crossed down into NW India .... eventually manifesting Buddhism, that went back up to Tibet .  

 

Then there are the Siberian  'Good and Bad'  Bon - Black or White Tengri  ( the white where the ones spreading these teachings , the black, sorcerers doing evil works  ) , possibly the seed source of the Zoroastrian concentration of good and bad powers of spirits and 'the mind'  ( principles and practices on how to develop and maintain 'good mind' ) .  Ahura and Div / Daeva  in Avestas , Asuru and Deva in Vedas. 

 

 

 

 

An ancient link between Tibet and Siberia is evident from the inherited Denisovan gene that enables contemporary Tibetans to live comfortably at high altitudes despite thin air.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/tibetans-inherited-high-altitude-gene-ancient-human

 

The Denisovans are an enigmatic archaic human species whose traces have first been found in Denisova Cave in the Altai mountains of Siberia. 

 

But the most complete remains so far have been discovered  high on the Tibetan Plateau.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01395-0

Edited May 21, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I'm a Gonzo Daoist

 

Very cool! Have you got supa powahs?

 

 

3 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

and Dharma Punk.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

[forestofemptiness]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

And he probably got those traditions from Bo - Siberian shamanism , which had certain very advanced spiritual teachings and practices

 

The idea of reverse influence, from Tibet to India and China has never really held up in my opinion. But you do see a melting pot of Shavite and Buddhist Tantra in India, sharing practices and even plagiarizing scriptures, and such influences clearly show up in Vedanta as well. India is to the East what Greece was to the West in my opinion (and may have even influenced Greece). 

 

But let's not let such academic opinions clutter up the 'Bums. 

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Very cool! Have you got supa powahs?

 

 

 

 

The power to piss people off, especially when showing to them that they're wrong.

 

....and the power to piss them off without even trying, too.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Earl Grey

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

An ancient link between Tibet and Siberia is evident from the inherited Denisovan gene that enables contemporary Tibetans to live comfortably at high altitudes despite thin air.

 

https://www.science.org/content/article/tibetans-inherited-high-altitude-gene-ancient-human

 

The Denisovans are an enigmatic archaic human species whose traces have first been found in Denisova Cave in the Altai mountains of Siberia. 

 

But the most complete remains so far have been discovered  high on the Tibetan Plateau.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01395-0

 

Pollen and tree ring analysis indicates the Chang Tang plateau in Northern Tibet had a far more liveable environment than it has today - one that could support a primordial civilization - until the climate become colder and drier starting around 1500 BCE, a climate change that caused the population to migrate out of the northern plateau.

 

The world was a very different place back then ;

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhangzhung

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

The idea of reverse influence, from Tibet to India and China has never really held up in my opinion.

 

Hmmmm .... since you commented that after quoting this ;

 

" And he probably got those traditions from Bo - Siberian shamanism , which had certain very advanced spiritual teachings and practices  "

 

In that context it  would not be a 'reverse influence'  from Tibet to India , more of an influence from  Tonpa Miwoe / Pamir area / Omo Lung Ring  into Tibet .

 

And an influence from BMAC area (next to Pamirs ) into NW India  with the 'Indo Aryans'   'importing' certain aspects of Vedanta .

 

And a later influence from India importing Buddhist religion  into Tibet .

 

- it seems there was an advanced people operating out of the Pamir area  and they may have influenced the formation of, or at least supplied a 'religious philosophy and practice' that 'lifetd up ' BMAC and Tibet (or more correctly  Zang Zung , which passed on the influence to Tibet )

 

 

 

Quote

 

But you do see a melting pot of Shavite and Buddhist Tantra in India, sharing practices and even plagiarizing scriptures, and such influences clearly show up in Vedanta as well. India is to the East what Greece was to the West in my opinion (and may have even influenced Greece). 

 

What started me off on a  section of this research was communication with a Tibetan guy who told me  that historically , in times past , and still a bit today , the Pamirs area  is considered the 'India of Tibet ' ..... meaning ;  similar to how many westerners see India as a source and origin of spirituality , Tibetans see that similar influence from the  Pamirs .

 

 

Quote

 

But let's not let such academic opinions clutter up the 'Bums. 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nungali

[Cobie]

.

 

10 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

… a melting pot … sharing practices and even plagiarizing scriptures …

 

Creativity = taking other peoples’ ideas and doing your own thing with it. (unknown)

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Removed (accidentally posted it twice)

Edited May 21, 2022 by Cobie

[Nungali]

Damn it !

 

I cant get that map to show up  

 

I can see it in my post box    and when I hit submit reply it reverts to this

 

 

 

Hmmmm .... maybe if I do this ;

 

.... nope , absolutely nothing happened

 

 

maybe this ;

 

[Cobie]

 It’s very relaxing, I understand these maps. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Cobie

[Nungali]

Arrrgh !

 

Okay its here ;

 

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Zhang-Zhung-BMAC-and-the-Andronovo-culture_fig4_343322293

 

( and now, yet another paper from Dmitry to peruse   - which is fine, since it is pissing down rain all day here  )

 

- I'll collate all this  into a little piece at some stage 

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

...

 

But let's not let such academic opinions clutter up the 'Bums. 

 

 

 

No !   

 

 

 

  ( Let us let it . )

 

I know that is against the grain here     ( and also certain subversive moderators have made it like that ... by fiddling with the controls !

 

Note how the settings will not allow me to post a map explaining academic principles  ..... but a silly meme  or picture or gif  is super easy to post and comes up every time

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

- the dreaded 'fist salute' 

 

 

[steve]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Hmmmm .... since you commented that after quoting this ;

 

" And he probably got those traditions from Bo - Siberian shamanism , which had certain very advanced spiritual teachings and practices  "

 

In that context it  would not be a 'reverse influence'  from Tibet to India , more of an influence from  Tonpa Miwoe / Pamir area / Omo Lung Ring  into Tibet .

 

And an influence from BMAC area (next to Pamirs ) into NW India  with the 'Indo Aryans'   'importing' certain aspects of Vedanta .

 

And a later influence from India importing Buddhist religion  into Tibet .

 

- it seems there was an advanced people operating out of the Pamir area  and they may have influenced the formation of, or at least supplied a 'religious philosophy and practice' that 'lifetd up ' BMAC and Tibet (or more correctly  Zang Zung , which passed on the influence to Tibet )

 

 

 

 

What started me off on a  section of this research was communication with a Tibetan guy who told me  that historically , in times past , and still a bit today , the Pamirs area  is considered the 'India of Tibet ' ..... meaning ;  similar to how many westerners see India as a source and origin of spirituality , Tibetans see that similar influence from the  Pamirs .

 

 

 

 

@Nungali

 

Did you start reading Bø and Bön yet?

Is it helpful?

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

@Nungali

 

Did you start reading Bø and Bön yet?

Is it helpful?

 

Oh yeah ! 

 

VERY !   ( And the researchgate  link I posted above is also written by that author  ; he is an intrepid fellow !  One section he talks about being nervous going to a certain area for more research and teachings , he has to go by train and on that train he says it is notorious for knife fights breaking out between the Mongolian and Chinese passengers - 6 died that way last year  .  At some stage he was the victim of violence , some crazy dudes trying to beat him to death , but he says he prayed and invoked one of his protectors , and for 'some reason' , they stopped beating him and left . )

 

- actually yesterday I was going to post (but got distracted and neglected to ) ;

 Thanks to our very own, famous,  'Steve on the Internet'      for the book recommendation .

 

There are a few historical issues though ; the author seems to  somehow equate (as far as I can tell, so far )   Zang Zung Empire and an influence from BMAC . But the dates do not match .

 

In any case , I think the Pamir area  is still the most likely candidate .   Tonpa Shenrab Miwoe  ( or various other spellings )  bought an advanced and enlightened  teaching  from Pamir area ( 'Tagzig' ) TO Zang Zung  ( as the Tibetans then where not 'ready for it ' , yet . )   The dates do not match for physical transmission ... but this does not rule out the transmission of a 'myth' (or 'oral history' ) , which may survive over  a greater time  period .

 

As far as we know  BMAC was an advanced culture ( only recently discovered as recently as 1970s ! ) , within that it appears that Zoroastrianism ( Mazdayasni Paoiryo-Tkaesha ) evolved  via a refinement  of, or return to,  'higher principles' from an older pre-Zoroastrian  religion (Paoiryo-Tkaesha - meaning keepers of the original ancient law.)  Either this influence passed into the Pamir 'Knot'  (see below diagram) , or, as I prefer,  it may have been an original 'homeland' ( 'Airyana Vaeja ' ) of  BMAC people (or at least that segment of them that made up 'Zoroaster's tribe '  - whoever they where ) .    As I said before , they point to 'wisdom' coming from the east , and Zang Zung , Tibet, etc . from the west . 

 

Airyana Vaeja ( Zoroaster's tribe's original homeland ) description matches  Pamir Knot ,  Shamballa description matches Pamir Knot ..... no where else I can find a circular river encircling a mountainous terrain , with various centres of settlement  and rivers radiating out into the ( then ) known lands around it ; 

 

bottom right :

 

 

Buddhist thangka showing Shambhala with Mount Meru & a temple in the centre
The two circular mountain ranges remind us of the description of the Hara and Zeredaza Mountains
in the Avesta's Zamyad Yasht "lying all around" - the Zeredaza being the outer range.

 

One issue is  the 'break in the record ' , the Avestas 'break off' and we never hear of those people or those teachings again until the written history of the Late Assyrians record 'Parsua' coming down from the Iranian Plateau into the Mesopotamian Plains to join in with others to throw of the oppression of Assyria .  It could relate to the 'Late Bronze Age Collapse' , which effected places all across western Asia into the east Mediterranean .  These events could also have bought ' Shamballa '  to end or transition  .

 

In any case, this is not the main thrust of my search , when I finish that book and some others, I will be able to collate  more info on the REAL issue  ( that is, what good is 'academia' , history, etc if we do not have things we can draw from it and improve ourselves ?) In this case it is I suspect that an influence from Pamir region was significant in BMAC . I also note that an influence from Pamirs created '2nd stage Bon in Tibet ' ; attributed to Tonpa Shenrab , from 'Tagzig' ( 'Tajik' - Pamirs ) . Certain 'advanced / enlightened teachings from this place and people in Pamirs influenced Tibet , similar teachings influenced pre Zoroastrian Mazdayasni religion and they speak of a 'lost homeland' that could be Pamirs . Descriptions from both Avesta and Tibetan Buddhist sources indicates this place as the mythic 'Shamballa' or 'Omo Lungring ' in 'Tagzig' .

Other sources indicate a strong influence of Siberian Shamanism in Tibetan Bon .

I am hunting the people and source of these teachings and collating what the teachings are ( for example both Zoroaster and Tonpa Shenrab taught people to substitute their animal sacrifices with non animal 'offerings') . Zoroastrians where the first people to LEGISLATE animal rights and protection of the environmental elements , Lake Baikal people had ( and some still do ) very strong tradition of non pollution of environment ; both Zoroastrians and Tibetans do not bury, burn or otherwise pollute an environmental element with corpses .

 

I am collating a set of beliefs and practices that helped these various peoples become more spiritually advanced . Where they went , these principles and practices  helped people develop and maintain societies that  respected and did not want to abuse animals,  respect and look after the  environment ,  develop mental and artistic abilities,  move towards equality of sexes , etc .   Its the one thing that seems to link this vast jigsaw puzzle together.  Also what seems significant is both peoples had similar funerary practice and both Zoroaster and Tonpa Shenrab are credited with reforming the old religion away from animal sacrifice and towards 'offerings'  of foodstufs, plants, flowers, scents and  ' art ' .
 

[Miffymog]

On 21/05/2022 at 12:59 AM, forestofemptiness said:

I thought this was an outstanding talk that combines the insights of Vedanta with the Christianity. We have a Christian who converted to Vedanta, and rather than losing his Christianity found it very much enhanced. It is also very practical, very loving, and spoken well from the heart. 

 

He also raises interesting questions about dual-belonging: can one be a member of two religions? His answer may surprise you (especially since it come in the second lecture ). 

 

 

 

 

I found it quite inspirational,  and its now sent me off down a nice little rabbit hole investigating what Vedanta is, so thank you 

[old3bob]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:59 PM, forestofemptiness said:

I thought this was an outstanding talk that combines the insights of Vedanta with the Christianity. We have a Christian who converted to Vedanta, and rather than losing his Christianity found it very much enhanced. It is also very practical, very loving, and spoken well from the heart. 

 

He also raises interesting questions about dual-belonging: can one be a member of two religions? His answer may surprise you (especially since it come in the second lecture ). 

 

 

 

 

traditional Christianity and traditional Hinduism will never match up or can be conflated.  This is as plain as day going by their radically different scriptures and main tenants!  But if one wants to get esoteric and mystically correlate stuff then there are some match ups but even that entails a lot of stretching with liberties taken. (imo)

[Michael Sternbach]

50 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

traditional Christianity and traditional Hinduism will never match up or can be conflated.  This is as plain as day going by their radically different scriptures and main tenants!  But if one wants to get esoteric and mystically correlate stuff then there are some match ups but even that entails a lot of stretching with liberties taken. (imo)

 

I beg to differ in this regard.

 

All major religions convey the same information on the metaphysical level.

 

Except that they tend to vary when it comes to emphasis. Truths are complementary, and what is left out in one system may play a more central part in another. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Michael Sternbach