The Power of Chi movie

[Vajra Fist]

I mean, they could have not hired Morgan Freeman (or half of the sports stars) and instead used the budget on a proper director, screenwriter as well as perhaps funded some experiments under laboratory conditions, and produced a more well-rounded and interesting documentary, that could have better achieved their stated aims of validated the art of taiji.

 

Instead we've got a badly put-together, glossy advert for a questionable online course.

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

I mean, they could have not hired Morgan Freeman (or half of the sports stars) and instead used the budget on a proper director, screenwriter as well as perhaps funded some experiments under laboratory conditions, and produced a more well-rounded and interesting documentary, that could have better achieved their stated aims of validated the art of taiji.

 

Instead we've got a badly put-together, glossy advert for a questionable online course.

 

I didn’t find the video objectionable at all. I do know experientially what this chi stuff is, so I am not a skeptic. I was a long time ago, but not now.

 

I think many practitioners complain about this stuff because they’ve spent a lot of time and effort and not been able to enter “the gate” beyond the physical level. So they think all there is, is the physical level.

 

My experience with my teachers is that the secret is not a secret at all. We make it more complex than it needs to be, in our obsession with science. I’ve heard pretty famous western teachers say, “it’s all physics” and then in the same breath say, “put your mind on the opponent’s root and displace them”. If it is all physics, what role does the mind play there beyond being an observer? 
 

When someone experiences the “adhere” jin, it is nothing short of magical, until the principles are shown. There needs to be a fair degree of sensitivity in a practitioner to be able to feel the field. 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by dwai

[Vajra Fist]

23 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think many practitioners complain about this stuff because they’ve spent a lot of time and effort and not been able to enter “the gate” beyond the physical level. So they think all there is, is the physical level

 

I don't think it's fair to say 'they don't get it because they're not as good as me'.

 

On the FB group you mentioned, there are some fairly respected teachers (some of whom I know) who are sceptics, who have many more years on you. Dare I say, they might even be better practitioners than you.

 

It's just they don't use the same concepts as you to explain what is happening in their bodies. You might explain it as jin, they might describe it as the transfer of force through the fascia. 

 

To me, understanding that its not a magical energy, but rather a natural physiological process, doesn't make it more complicated, but rather less so.

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I don't think it's fair to say 'they don't get it because they're not as good as me'.

oh I wasn’t referring to myself. My teacher on the other hand…entirely another level. 

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

On the FB group you mentioned, there are some fairly respected teachers (some of whom I know) who are sceptics, who have many more years on you. Dare I say, they might even be better practitioners than you.

I know many of them. The good ones are never raucously vocal like many there are  

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

It's just they don't use the same concepts as you to explain what is happening in their bodies. You might explain it as jin, they might describe it as the transfer of force through the fascia. 

like I said, language. Transfer of force through the fascia is also not the entire story. 

9 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

To me, understanding that its not a magical energy, but rather a natural physiological process, doesn't make it more complicated, but rather less so.

Not magical at all — only phenomena that need a higher degree of sensitivity to get. 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

 

To the extent there is anything supernormal about taiji application, it is here. The ability of a master to be able to soak the awareness through not only their own bodies, but also to an extent the body of an opponent, is beyond what is normally thought possible. That warrants further research and study.

 

Unfortunately the film used language like: "Some 3,000 years ago, the Chinese discovered how to unleash the force," and elsewhere referenced Jedis and Star Wars.

 

That sort of language shuts down enquiry. I want to know what is really going on - how much force is being generated and through what mechanisms in the body, how is it he is able to sense so accurately structural imbalances of another person by just putting a hand on their arm? 

 

Nowadays people like Shinzen Young are doing so much good for meditation disciplines by opening them up to neuroscience. Brain imaging is able to map consistently what jhanas look like and detect clearly what it looks like when someone moves to up and down through the jhanas.

 

It's time we did the same thing for taiji. There's truly something special, perhaps even miraculous about what people like Mizner can do. Let's study it, and understand it. Not use the concepts of the past and effectively say its the power of the holy spirit that is moving people. 

 

 

 

 

 

Your assertion that neuroscience is opening things up raises a few points. For one, neuroscience is a correlative discipline...Identification of activity in the region of a brain doesn't  mean much  in terms of "what" is happening...especially in cases of Jhana.

 

Jhana is a consciousness related phenomena and science hasn't much (if anything) to offer in that regard. It is very hard to explain supranormal states of consciousness without even understanding consciousness itself in a firm manner (see the hard problem). Moreover, aside from the  conceptual neuroscience issues, the term Jhana has been consistently watered down, changed and applied to a number of things that are actually not Jhana "proper" . Is there evidence to suggest what he is doing is actual Jhana, and not some soft alteration of it?

 

Regards understanding something, I think we can agree that In order to understand something, you immerse yourself in it. Extracting subcomponents of things and reframing them in a materialistic reductionist framework...Could you explain how that leads to an increased understanding? If anything, from what I gather it divorces the phenomena from its context, thereby it could actually lead to reducing understanding.

 

As I see it, the masters who taught this stuff had a full and complete knowledge of it. If others cant grasp these things or refuse to engage with the explanations as it does not align with their preferred paradigm, would that not suggest a shortfall on behalf of the individual rather than the explanation itself? 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Shadow_self

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

I mean, they could have not hired Morgan Freeman (or half of the sports stars) and instead used the budget on a proper director, screenwriter as well as perhaps funded some experiments under laboratory conditions, and produced a more well-rounded and interesting documentary, that could have better achieved their stated aims of validated the art of taiji.

 

Instead we've got a badly put-together, glossy advert for a questionable online course.

 

 

But then who would watch it besides people here? The fact there is even a movie like this at all with a big name like Morgan Freeman narrating and big sports stars taking part is already amazing, we can't expect perfection from the start.

If it leans to more of the common person getting interested in all of this, then what's the harm?

 

 

 

[RobB]

<arrgh, can't resist...>

 

1. Rob Poynton's key observation was that he saw Mitzner using the same basic tricks that people used twenty years ago to claim 'mysterious powers' which, when looked at more critically, turned out to be basic matters of biomechanics. Mitzner is a big name with, apparently, real skill. Why does he feel the need to wheel out these old carny manoeuvres? 

 

2. @Pak_Satrio the reason it matters is that martial arts and alternative healing are bullshit-rich environments. There are a lot of vulnerable and gullible people around looking for magical solutions. We don't need anyone, especially someone with a massive social media presence, adding to the dung heap. 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by RobB
clarity (maybe)

[awaken]

On 2022/5/20 at 6:51 AM, Shadow_self said:

 

Your assertion that neuroscience is opening things up raises a few points. For one, neuroscience is a correlative discipline...Identification of activity in the region of a brain doesn't  mean much  in terms of "what" is happening...especially in cases of Jhana.

 

Jhana is a consciousness related phenomena and science hasn't much (if anything) to offer in that regard. It is very hard to explain supranormal states of consciousness without even understanding consciousness itself in a firm manner (see the hard problem). Moreover, aside from the  conceptual neuroscience issues, the term Jhana has been consistently watered down, changed and applied to a number of things that are actually not Jhana "proper" . Is there evidence to suggest what he is doing is actual Jhana, and not some soft alteration of it?

 

Regards understanding something, I think we can agree that In order to understand something, you immerse yourself in it. Extracting subcomponents of things and reframing them in a materialistic reductionist framework...Could you explain how that leads to an increased understanding? If anything, from what I gather it divorces the phenomena from its context, thereby it could actually lead to reducing understanding.

 

As I see it, the masters who taught this stuff had a full and complete knowledge of it. If others cant grasp these things or refuse to engage with the explanations as it does not align with their preferred paradigm, would that not suggest a shortfall on behalf of the individual rather than the explanation itself? 

 

雖然我看不太懂你的英文

但是我贊成大致上的意思

禪那確實被嚴重的扭曲了

特別是在氣功和武術的領域

使用了和禪那或者丹道相同的名詞

卻改變了名詞的內容

導致非禪那和丹道練習者使用相同的名詞卻完全不同的意義

這對禪那和丹道練習者來說是很令人難以接受的

因為一個名詞的內容被完全改變了

和原來的意義完全不同了

 

Although I don't understand your English very well

But I agree with the general meaning

Jhana is indeed seriously distorted

Especially in the fields of qigong and martial arts

uses the same noun as jhana or dando

but changed the content of the noun

Causes non-jhana and non-alchemy practitioners to use the same nouns with completely different meanings

This is unacceptable for jhana and alchemy practitioners

Because the content of a noun is completely changed

completely different from the original

[Vajra Fist]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

Jhana is indeed seriously distorted

 

I hear this quite often from internal alchemy practitioners: 'My jhana is better than your jhana.'

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

 

Was going to post the video, explaining the parlour tricks, but see that it has already been posted.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Dai Zhi Qiang

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

On 20/05/2022 at 9:42 AM, Vajra Fist said:

I mean, they could have not hired Morgan Freeman (or half of the sports stars) and instead used the budget on a proper director, screenwriter as well as perhaps funded some experiments under laboratory conditions, and produced a more well-rounded and interesting documentary, that could have better achieved their stated aims of validated the art of taiji.

 

Instead we've got a badly put-together, glossy advert for a questionable online course.
 

 

 

 

It is not a documentary is it a marketing tool, nothing more and proves nothing.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Dai Zhi Qiang
typo

[Earl Grey]

42 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I hear this quite often from internal alchemy practitioners: 'My jhana is better than your jhana.'

 

Why does the image of boys going through puberty persist here?

 

Guess people making these comparisons never grow out of it because some parts of them never grow the way they should like everyone else.

 

...NO INNUENDO INTENDED IN THAT LAST SENTENCE.

[Shadow_self]

47 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I hear this quite often from internal alchemy practitioners: 'My jhana is better than your jhana.'

 

The issue is that the word has become distorted unfortunately

 

 

Start about @25.00 or thereabouts

[Vajra Fist]

30 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The issue is that the word has become distorted unfortunately

 

 

Start about @25.00 or thereabouts

 

It's easy to get attached to states in meditation - to crave them, and attach a measure of pride to them. But jhanas aren't the end goal of practice. They are also impermanent.

 

Edit - just watched that section of the interview. I agree wholeheartedly, and this was one of the reasons why I moved on from Bhante Vimalaramsi's stuff (which I think she is directly criticising here) is because of what I saw as the overemphasis on goals in practice.

 

But whether the experience I was having was of the arupa jhanas or merely access concentration, my point stands that to say it is 'mine' and compare it with that experienced by others, is a recipe for further suffering

Edited May 21, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[Shadow_self]

24 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

It's easy to get attached to states in meditation - to crave them, and attach a measure of pride to them. But jhanas aren't the end goal of practice. They are also impermanent.

 

Edit - just watched that section of the interview. I agree wholeheartedly, and this was one of the reasons why I moved on from Bhante Vimalaramsi's stuff (which I think she is directly criticising here) is because of what I saw as the overemphasis on goals in practice.

 

But whether the experience I was having was of the arupa jhanas or merely access concentration, my point stands that to say it is 'mine' and compare it with that experienced by others, is a recipe for further suffering

 

@freeform has made a number of great posts on here which are what I would consider good advice on what constitues Jhana "proper"

 

 

 

That last thread has some particulary pertinent points..especially this one

 

 

Of course people are free to put labels on things...but any explanation I have been given, including one from a Buddhist teacher, aligns with this

[awaken]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I hear this quite often from internal alchemy practitioners: 'My jhana is better than your jhana.'

 

 

 

搬運者定義的四禪確實和阿含經的四禪定不同

 

如果你有看過阿含經，你就會知道問題在哪裡，而不是以一種自我主義中心的角度來看這件事情

 

 

The four jhānas defined by the transfer method practicer are indeed different from the four jhānas in the Agam Sutra.

If you have read the Agama Sutra, you will know what the problem is, rather than looking at it from an egocentric perspective

 

阿含經定義很清楚的一心境，在搬運法的定義當中並不存在

甚至搬運法定義的禪那，就是伍柳的定義，喜歡講『脈住』『息住』這類以身體氣機反應來做定義，但是在阿含經當中，是沒有『脈住』這種定義的

 

One state of mind, which is clearly defined in the Agama Sutra, does not exist in the definition of the transfer method.

Even the jhana defined by the transfer method is Wuliu's definition. They likes to talk about "cessation of pulse“ and " cessation of breathing” and other definitions based on the body's qi response, but in the Ahan Sutra, there is no such thing as "cessation of pulse" 

 

搬運法講二禪是『息住』，也就是停止呼吸的意思，根據的是呼吸

但是阿含經定義的二禪是『無尋無伺』，根據的是意念的型態

這兩種定義完全不同

 

而且搬運法定義的二禪，在丹經定義中從未出現過

 

According to the transfer method, the second meditation is "breathing stop". It is based on breathing.

However, the second jhana defined in the Agama Sutra is "no vitakka and no vicāra", which is based on the pattern of attention(mind)

These two definitions are completely different

 

Moreover, the second Zen defined by the transfer method has never appeared in the definition of the alchemy scriptures.

 

阿含經當中『無尋無伺』是二禪的重點

從初禪開始的『有尋有伺』，到二禪的『無尋無伺』，講的都是意識心的狀態

從可移動的『有尋有伺』，慢慢改變成不可移動的『無尋無伺』

都沒有講到搬運法所說的『息住』

 

阿含經是根據意識心的狀態來定義二禪，搬運法卻是根據呼吸來定義二禪，兩者差別非常大

可以說搬運法練習者，自己定義了一套二禪的定義，改變了二禪的內容，卻和最原始的阿含經完全不同

 

https://4ariyasacc2.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/初禪中的「尋」與「伺」/

 

In the Agama Sutra, "no searching and no waiting" is the focus of the second meditation

From the first jhāna "with searching and waiting" to the second jhāna "without searching and without waiting", all are about the state of the conscious mind.

From movable "with searching and waiting", slowly changing to immovable "no searching and no waiting"

There is no mention of the "breath stoping" mentioned in the transfer method.

The Ahan Sutra defines the second meditation according to the state of the conscious mind, but the transfer method defines the second meditation according to the breath. The difference between the two is very big.

It can be said that the practitioners of the transfer method have defined a set of definitions of the second jhana and changed the content of the second jhana, but they are completely different from the most primitive Ahan Sutra.

 

搬運法以練氣為主要核心

阿含經以練意識心的轉變為主要核心，這和古代丹經以練神的轉變為主要核心是相同的

烏肝日魂，兔髓月魄，都是屬於練神的轉變

也就是說阿含經的禪定定義和丹經的禪定定義是相同的，都是來自意識心的轉化

但是卻都和搬運法不同，搬運法是來自身體氣感的轉化

 

The transportation method is based on practicing Qi as the main core

The main core of the Ahan Sutra is to practice the transformation of consciousness, which is the same as the main core of the ancient alchemy scriptures to practice the transformation of Shen.

Black Liver Sun Soul, Rabbit Marrow Moon Soul, all belong to the transformation of Shen

That is to say, the definition of jhana in the Ahan Sutra is the same as the definition of meditation in the Alchemy Sutra, both of which come from the transformation of the conscious mind.

But they are all different from the transfer method, which is a transformation from the body's sense of qi.

 

搬運法嘗試用氣來解釋一切

這一點和所有的經典都不符合

例如阿含經，丹經

 

 

The transfer method tries to explain everything with Qi

This is not in line with all the classics

For example, the Ahan Sutra, the Dan Sutra

Edited May 21, 2022 by awaken

[Yuen Biao]

On 14/05/2022 at 12:29 AM, dwai said:

Very impressive documentary involving some very high level pro athletes testing some skilled taiji people (Lyoto Machida, Febricio Verdum to name a few, trying their hands with Adam Mizner, Master Zhu etc). I watched it and loved it. 

 

https://thepowerofchi.com/
 

Will be a good watch for all the IMA bums as well as the skeptical bums (any Fajin Project members here)? 

PS: Narrated by Morgan Freeman himself 

 

PPS: they have a promo for usd $4.95 to watch the movie. Well worth it, imho. 

 

Parlour tricks for the uninitiated...video below proves it is possible to teach them to anyone.

 

On 15/05/2022 at 8:21 AM, Vajra Fist said:

I've come to like Mizner a lot. I've always thought he came across as smarmy, but from my few interactions with him online, I've found him to be sincere and humble. 

 

He doesn't put other systems down and say his is the best - he lets his art speak on his behalf.

 

I also like how thick skinned he is. Other internal arts teachers constantly say how they're above pettiness, but then get triggered by comments online, and end up in long arguments. 

 

I think that's the thing I find most impressive about him, above his clear martial skill. Despite the amount of crap that gets thrown at him, he's still able to take a step back from it.

 

That said, this whole thing film felt a bit cringe - like an early noughties docu-series, in the same vein as 'Mind, Body and Kickass Moves'.

 

For an hour it was mostly just Mizner demonstrating his skill against various athletes and sportsmen. I'm still not sure if it was an extended advertorial, but it certainly felt that way at times. I'm still not all the way through it, having to watch it in short sections.

 

To my mind, it played too much as 'chi' being a mystical substance. I'm not a sceptic in this regards, but I'm 99% of what Mizner does is due to a highly refined technique, rather than any magical force.

 

I went to a weekend course with him several years ago as a friend was studying the online content and visiting Prague regularly.

Mizner spent a lot of his time telling us all how his system was the best and everything out there was fake and worthless; perhaps he was having a bad day or something but his attitude stank to me and he was far from humble.

 

On 17/05/2022 at 10:30 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

No idea! According to a reddit post it's a guy called Doug, who is a student of someone called Master Zhu. Beyond that I'm not sure.

 

There's an interesting video here, that offers one possible explanation for what's happening. Enjoyable watch, even if you disagree - I think someone likened it to a magician revealing stage secrets. 

 

 

 

This video is good, shows you what is possible if you know basic structure, lines of force etc...

[Vajra Fist]

20 hours ago, Yuen Biao said:

went to a weekend course with him several years ago as a friend was studying the online content and visiting Prague regularly.

Mizner spent a lot of his time telling us all how his system was the best and everything out there was fake and worthless; perhaps he was having a bad day or something but his attitude stank to me and he was far from humble

 

Thanks for sharing. Did you have the opportunity to touch hands with him or any of his students?

[Yuen Biao]

On 17/06/2022 at 1:18 PM, Vajra Fist said:

 

Thanks for sharing. Did you have the opportunity to touch hands with him or any of his students?

Yes him and Andy Mack. Mizner obviously was better...

 

My friend and I were working on a particular pattern and energy of a pushing hands drill and Mack comes over to tweak it so we spend a little time working on it. A few minutes later he's bouncing up and down like a banshee saying things like: "Yeah you got it right there". I was doing the same techniques with my friend, as soon as he added the bouncing response we were even more dubious.

 

It's cultish.

 

They do have some skills definitely and I do acknowledge that.

 

The criticism from Mizner about EVERYTHING else was hardly sage and the bouncing was weird too!

[dwai]

Some of the bouncing/hopping can be explained by taiji people holding structure while getting power transferred on them. With inexperienced people it is usually one hop and then running backwards to maintain balance (or falling to the ground). 

Not everything is as it looks. FWIW I’ve not met mizner, but what is being taught is not simply biomechanics. I used to think he’s a bit of an arrogant “Richard cranium” too based on his online persona. But doesn’t take anything away about his art. 

 

How do I know that his stuff is legit? Because I see a lot of what I have learned, practice and teach in their videos. We have different ways to actualize it (conceptual frameworks might be different), but effects are similar. 
 

If someone has done taijiquan for even 6 weeks, and not felt qi flow then it’s a tragic shame and they should ask for their money back and then some. Qi is real, and it doesn’t take years to feel and recognize. Depending on how blocked one is, if doing the rigth thing, it will become apparent in a few weeks at most. With time it becomes stronger as the kinks are cleared up with regular and proper practice. 

Here’s one of explanation for why this stuff works (and it’s not about lines of force, biomechanics etc) —

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by dwai

[refugeindharma]

Did anyone happen to download the movie?

Unfortunately when I purchased it I only streamed it and didn't actually download the movie and now the website is down with no way to access the movie

 

They aren't responsive via email or Facebook, seems like they might have done a runner

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 20/11/2022 at 4:27 PM, refugeindharma said:

They aren't responsive via email or Facebook, seems like they might have done a runner

What a surprise. They probably didn’t have enough people buy their “Power of Chi” underwear or sign up to their scam course. 
 

 

[Barnaby]

I wonder how much the whole qi-emission thing isn’t a by-product of tai chi chuan’s decay as a functional martial art.

 

I’ve trained in some “fighty” tai chi schools, and – retrospectively – feel they tried to reverse-engineer aspects of tai chi to fit in with harder, external principles.

 

Since Yang Chengfu, so many practitioners are engaged in what is basically a health and energy-related practice. And yet we’re told that tai chi chuan is a martial art, and I wonder if that’s not where the qi-emission stuff comes from: the desire to find a magic bullet, to give this soft energy practice some physical "oomph".

 

The exception is the video of Wang Zhanhai posted above. But if that video can be taken at face value, he’s just applying good rooting and bio-mechanics against a non-compliant opponent. Nice work, but no “qi power”.

[forestofemptiness]

9 hours ago, Barnaby said:

I wonder how much the whole qi-emission thing isn’t a by-product of tai chi chuan’s decay as a functional martial art.

 

I'm not sure that qi emission (fa qi) and fajin are the same thing. Fajin as commonly referred to appears to be biomechanical (i.e. dependent on physical structures), whereas qi emission would not be. At some point, many schools decided to focus on the biomechanics and not the qi. I suppose a well rounded Tai Chi school would have both, although it is not something I've really found (although I am not a deep learner in this area). 

 

I'm not sure that any traditional, form based martial art is really functional in this day and age anyway, thus the popularity of MMA. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I'm not sure that qi emission (fa qi) and fajin are the same thing.

They aren’t 

 

This is fa qi

 

 

This is fajin

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Pak_Satrio