Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, natural said:

 

Ouch, just ouch ralis, a bit dramatic?

 

No. He is putting himself above others here by distinguishing between ordinary people and himself. 

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

 why? Ordinary people vs spiritual  seekers. FWIW, I consider you and all who participate on TDB as spiritual seekers. 
 

come on now @ralis - don’t try misconstrue my words to “win” in what I consider to be a one-sided argument. 

 

That clears up your intention. I will give you that, but in my view it its difficult to categorize persons into levels.

 

What defines a spiritual seeker? That is a very broad category and there are no specific definitions. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by ralis

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, steve said:

… we need to be a bit mindful and gentle with each other …

My religion is kindness. (Dalai Lama)

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

That clears up your intention. I will give you that, but in my view it its difficult to categorize persons into levels.

why is that? Anyone who doesn’t have interest in spirituality is an “ordinary” person (maybe better to say “non-spiritual person”).

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

What defines a spiritual seeker? That is a very broad category and there are no specific definitions. 

Those who are interested in exploring and practicing the multitude of spiritual traditions. 

[natural]

I am just a roadside weed.

 

A dandy lion if you will... stoically maintaining my existence among the many slings and arrows getting exposed to all types of weather.

Perennial source of food nectar and pollen to a mix of creatures.

 

I don't concern myself overly with the mundaneness of life, I just strive to be me!

[ralis]

Just now, dwai said:

why is that? Anyone who doesn’t have interest in spirituality is an “ordinary” person (maybe better to say “non-spiritual person”).

Those who are interested in exploring and practicing the multitude of spiritual traditions. 

 

One doesn't need to explore to be spiritual. I know a lot of spiritual persons that don't have a need to explore and that doesn't make them any different.

 

Do you spend any time in the natural world. Mountains, desert, forest etc.?

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

One doesn't need to explore to be spiritual. I know a lot of spiritual persons that don't have a need to explore and that doesn't make them any different.

Good to know that. Please go ahead and add them to the spiritual seekers' category. 

7 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Do you spend any time in the natural world. Mountains, desert, forest etc.?

Every chance I get. 

[natural]

12 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

One doesn't need to explore to be spiritual. I know a lot of spiritual persons that don't have a need to explore and that doesn't make them any different.

 

Do you spend any time in the natural world. Mountains, desert, forest etc.?

 

My two grandnieces (2.5 and 3.8) years old are natural explorers.

They stampede at the chance to splash in puddles, find treasures like a box turtle, or a tree frog etc. 

They appear pretty spiritual to me.

 

edit to add they are very tactile exploders using sight and touch primarily, but recognize a crows call or squirrels chatter as well!

Edited June 8, 2022 by natural
to add : And an awareness of the situation

[steve]

16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Is there such a thing as a fundamentalist nondualist?  In theory, probably.  In practice, I'm guessing not (though I'm willing to be corrected if any practicing nondualist fundamentalists wish to identify themselves).

 

As with anything related to attaching words to the ineffable, my answer is yes and no.

And while the question may have been a bit tongue in cheek, it brings up some things for me.

 

Fundamentalism as defined by Oxford is "relating to or advocating the strict, literal interpretation of scripture."

Dzogchenpas revere the ancient tantras and use them as a guidepost and beacon to inform and check progress and practice.

All teachings must be exactly as handed down, nothing is added or subtracted, at least in the Bön tradition. 

They also defer to the most learned and respected among the elders to explain and clarify meanings and metaphors, and this includes monastics and lay-practitioners alike. In this sense all dzogchen lineage holders and practitioners are fundamentalists.

 

There is an important caveat however which is that there is no belief or "interpretation of scripture" to define anything conceptual or related to knowledge or understanding associated with these teachings. They are exclusively practice manuals, descriptions, and metaphors which serve simply to reveal the continuity of the mind with its most fundamental essence through personal practice. Wherever there is uncertainty regarding the intention of the teachings, eg if some particular detail is not specified, then we see creativity and flexibility among teachers and practitioners, not someone trying establish one interpretation over another but rather embracing whatever shows its value through how well it supports the practitioner. Multiple ways exist and practitioners are allowed to be flexible in their own practice and approach. In this sense I would say fundamentalism really cannot apply where belief is irrelevant and interpretation is flexible when appropriate. Each individual discovers the foundation of their own mind and experience directly, no interpretation, no belief involved.

 

 

[steve]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

right, but if or when points (or certain correlations) are hammered on over and over again, even if not meaning to be forced, they can still have a forcing character to them ime.

 

I appreciate your point and I'll also offer that we're discussing this topic in a thread with the title - "Difference between dualism and non-dualism" on a forum devoted to spiritual discussion among people voluntarily participating.  Questions, answers, challenges, and counters are being traded back and forth specifically on this topic by some with experience in the nondual perspective and related practices and others who have less experience or even deny its validity altogether. Certainly one "side" or other or any individual can drop out of the conversation at any point by focusing on other threads... 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

‘You’re quite welcome! I had a touch of either the flu or COVID for three days. Aches, fever, sweats and chills. No respiratory or any loss in taste or smell. It was very odd that I would cycle through all the symptoms in a very short period of time then it was gone, only to return again.  All in three days. Is this similar to your condition?

took about a week but as you say it was a quick cycle

[steve]

3 hours ago, dawn90 said:

What's the weather like in your heart @steve?

 

I appreciate you asking @dawn90!

 

It feels turquoise blue and joyful at the moment, flecked and streaked with gold.

The day was smooth and productive and I'm resting in my yard with birdsong and canine companions...  partially listening to a virtual business meeting that holds very little interest for me... 

 

You?

[stirling]

38 minutes ago, steve said:

I appreciate your point and I'll also offer that we're discussing this topic in a thread with the title - "Difference between dualism and non-dualism" on a forum devoted to spiritual discussion among people voluntarily participating.  Questions, answers, challenges, and counters are being traded back and forth specifically on this topic by some with experience in the nondual perspective and related practices and others who have less experience or even deny its validity altogether. Certainly one "side" or other or any individual can drop out of the conversation at any point by focusing on other threads... 

 

Beat me to it. Just to add: No-one is being forced to post here, or to read the thread. There are any number of threads many here are not currently posting on. If this one is not of interesting, there is freedom to post elsewhere. The "hammering" is on target, so why not hammer at it until it's freestanding and confers some shelter? 

Edited June 8, 2022 by stirling

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

took about a week but as you say it was a quick cycle

 

I always drink a lot of water when I am sick. 

[steve]

Hope you feel better soon @Apech

Just spoke to both my parents who are a few days in. They’re both doing well but exhausted and a bit miserable.

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

A hypothetical scenario - imagine that you have to cut a branch on a tree that is very high above the ground. You climb the tree to the height where the branch is at. Would you rather perch on the branch you're cutting, or on another, more stable one, so you can chop down the branch you wanted to cut? Your "personalities" etc are the branch you want to chop down. The method of neti-neti immediately puts you in progressively more stable ground, from where you can clear up the obscurations one layer at a time. 

 

 

I can see how you can simplify the procedure, but at the same time doing a thorough job I have noticed the subtle energy level that is also mistakenly identified with, that more impersonal level described as true Yin and true Yang, I believe there’s no way I would have noticed that if I had raced through the process, I also don’t know how the invisible trunk/post conjoining can be pulled apart quickly, if rushing through how would anyone even know there is something to pull apart (because it is invisible). Subtle clinging and  invisible clinging, hypothetically this could keep one returning for many lifetimes. 
 

I had my own mini experience of sudden freedom from emotional and mental distress, it lasted two days and was very pleasant indeed, especially in contrast to the distress I had been feeling, and I have thought on a number of occasions if that had continued then, my life would have been very peaceful for sure, but I don’t believe my subtle energy body would have been developed as it has, and my subtle body’s development has brought its own rewards and will continue to do so IMHO. 

 

Quote

 

Why don't you give Drig Drishya Viveka a real chance? It might help you avoid unnecessary labor. 

I’m good thanks  Someone once had a dream for me, in it she described a 4 stage process where first one had to face one’s fears, then one had to climb a mountain, then one had to disengage, and then one had to resolve the dual battle within oneself. Again step by step, in a certain order, it seems I am very into defined steps and stages  

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

right, but if or when points (or certain correlations) are hammered on over and over again, even if not meaning to be forced, they can still have a forcing character to them ime.

 

Tempted to post an anvil chorus video, but I'll refrain.

Glad you're recovering, Apech, hope the fog lifts soon.  Hard to tell, but it sounds like Ralis needs good wishes for a speedy recovery too, and I do wish that!

 

I admit, I'm constantly tempted to preach--I've spent hours on some of the posts on this thread, only to gut the material and start over for lack of life in what I had to say.  In speaking to everyone else, not speaking to myself--where's that at!

This thread teeters on the edge sometimes.  We have our road maps, our GPS's--"are we there yet?"  We reassure ourselves that we're already there, and roll the window down. "Mom!  OldBob threw up again!"  "Ralis hit me!" 

 

"Don't make me stop the car!"...


 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Mark Foote

[steve]

As the great Grouch Marx once said, 

"I'm not crazy about reality duality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You are clearly a very brave, sincere and motivated practitioner to put your personal journey up here for the world to consider. That is worth a LOT on this journey. My sincere respect.

 

 

Much appreciated stirling  

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I guess I'm looking for more clarity on this question:

 

 

In a sentence, can you describe the revised understanding of reality that you would now hold?

 

It’s probably too hypothetical for me to answer, I could make up an answer but that would very likely miss the mark. 

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Specifically, what would your walking around experience would be. Would there even BE one?

 

 

On that Yin Yang dual level I know this much, they come to work together and don’t need me to direct or interfere, together they make a complete team, but before working together they were misfit, unable to work together. It’s likely that their workings filter down into the mental/emotional level so both these levels, Yin/Yang and emotional/mental operate perfectly, without ‘me’ being engaged at that level. 

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Supposing there is still existing in this reality : What happens in difficult situations? Do emotions or thoughts arise? Do you have a job, friends, or partner(s)? Does the world look like this still, or something else?

 

If you aren't in this reality, what is THAT reality like? Who is there?

 

Bonus question: Who else is there that has this proposed insight?

 

 

I suspect the Self that interfaces between heaven and earth, left right duality is taken care of, but heaven earth duality requires my attention. 

 

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

Thanks again for working with us to bring some sharing and understanding to this.

🙏

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

How would you know if you got them all?

 

 

It’s like a program I’m running, it will be clear when I get to the end of it, I will literally be informed in some way because it is a  feedback loop program. 

 

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Speaking solely for myself, I would say that the insight is the realization about what those all truly are. Most of the major ones need to be cleared before insight. Each time one comes up it is obvious what it is, it is noticed and it is dissolved. This is, IMHO, what Manitou was talking about with her "fear". She likely wasn't even aware that it was happening, she noticed and it was dropped. It is ABSOLUTELY the non-dual understanding that makes this actually possible. 

 

I am certain this isn't just my experience.

I don’t understand your saying “most of the major ones need to be cleared before insight”, and then say the nondual understanding makes this possible, which sounds like after the insight. What is the insight you’re referring to? 

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

From a Christian teaching did the thieves crucified  with Jesus have to reach his level before they were quickened and raised up?

No, but that direct road wasn’t available to me perhaps given who I am. It might be that the four paths of yoga are a good model, and I am simply on another path. 
 

Thinking it through, my Christian hero St Seraphim of Sarov was an old man before he was cleansed enough to be a conduit for the divine when he was directed in a vision to “open the doors” to people in need. His path took him decades, and he completely relied on Jesus as much as a person can IMO. The thief might have just been given a new start in that story, not a new finish? 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Tempted to post an anvil chorus video, but I'll refrain.

Glad you're recovering, Apech, hope the fog lifts soon.  Hard to tell, but it sounds like Ralis needs good wishes for a speedy recovery too, and I do wish that!

 

I admit, I'm constantly tempted to preach--I've spent hours on some of the posts on this thread, only to gut the material and start over for lack of life in what I had to say.  In speaking to everyone else, not speaking to myself--where's that at!

This thread teeters on the edge sometimes.  We have our road maps, our GPS's--"are we there yet?"  We reassure ourselves that we're already there, and roll the window down. "Mom!  OldBob threw up again!"  "Ralis hit me!" 

 

"Don't make me stop the car!"...
 

 

 since your car crashed and "missed the mark" keep the piss in your pants to yourself.

[old3bob]

.

Edited June 9, 2022 by old3bob

[blue eyed snake]

22 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Where are those channels, central and otherwise?  How is it that everybody is happy as a clam in their minds, and not still learning from their bodies?

 

yes, I would like to hear some more too.

 

I never was a 'spiritual seeker', far from it, just an ordinary person. Chi-gong was started due to health reasons.

after 3 months of doing some of these exercises I sat down for meditation and  the realisation that "me" is made up of layer upon layer of conditioning hit me. This was accompanied by strong energetic happenings in the body.

 

Looking back on that time I realized that this happened right after the central channel was cleared of some nasty shit.

so there seems to be a relation between the clearing of the central channel and shaking loose from the ego ( for want of a better word)

[dawn90]

19 hours ago, steve said:

You?

 

I feel absolutely like this. Every day.

 

 

I guess I'm more on the blue side - really resonate with that color.

 

I like to sing along, and change the lyrics; and I go: In my heart I know what is right...

I feel the power of the law...etc...

Love it.