Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[old3bob]

23 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

There's been a slight problem in translation, I don't mean Christ just as a human being; I meant Christ consciousness, which exists in every religion and every system on planet earth.

I mean a certain quality in your heart; which other religoins call something else.

 

You took me litteraly Oldboob.

 

not really so among most Bible using and proclaiming "Christians"...

[blue eyed snake]

Looking back to my childhood, so glad we were raised without any religion.

 

Had to learn to think for myself, what is ethical and what is not and why do you think so.

When you really think so will you stand up for your idea of ethics?

 

I was raised with a comparatively low amount of conditioning in that regard, what a gift.

[dawn90]

Well it depends who you talk to; there's a lot of difference among christians.

Contrary to appearances I've never been associated with the church, or christianity for that matter. But I do think. Like I've been saying. That christianity offers a perspective that no one else has.

 

All systems want the same thing.

 

But what changes is how they're set up and the language they choose, and what the emphasis is.

So I like to mix it up a little.

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by dawn90

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, dawn90 said:

 

Outside of Christ you're hopelessly full of sin you are correct.

That's why the realization that you have to get to.

Is to understand that under the current conditions you can't live from the heart because that heart doesn't recognize Christ.

You have to cultivate yourself up until that heart is refined to a sufficient extent that you can live naturally under Christ.

Because if you take it litteraly - then you don't do anything; quite the contrary: you're supposed to try then fail miserably and understand, my god; I really can't do it without Christ. That leads to the understanding that your heart still has to be refined - that you didn't make it like you thought you had.

 

 

"The practicing Christians I've known accepted that they were helpless sinners and could do no right, but when they let Jesus into their hearts, Jesus could."

 

(yours truly, above)

 

It's not that the folks I knew refined their hearts, or that they lived "under Christ".  I think whether or not Jesus died to wash away their sins and permit them entrance into heaven (Jesus the Christ) was not so much on their minds, more the immediate fact that the choices they made always turned out wrong, but if they gave it up to Jesus things went right.  Time after time.

Very much a twelve-step approach, if I understand correctly (my knowledge of twelve-step is from the outside, I've not been an active participant).  You realize you are helpless to do the right thing, the healthy thing mentally and physically, and you seek help from above.

Curiously, I think there's general agreement that a person has to go through a very deep personal and emotional crisis, before they can succeed in experiencing action without their own personal agency.  

Just to be clear about what I was saying.

What language are you translating from?--just curious!

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

We each experience reality from the center of awareness. 

This, above all seemingly explains much of the confusion local awareness experiences regarding encounters with 'other'.

Along with the illusory notion that it is somenow possible to be seperate from all of reality, or tao, ever.

 

Each instance of awareness is like a facet on a gem. 
Each facet of the gem reflects every other facet of the gem. 

Like Indra's Net.  Though myriad, it is all one.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

 

It's just a way to notice that the sound of things isn't sourced at the ears. It's an exercise in opening up the way we think about the senses.

 

Hmm. On the one hand, our senses are designed to accurately locate and identify the source of their input.

 

On the other hand, they are prone to deception. I learned that lesson already in my early teenage years, when I was once anasthetized with laughing gas for a dental treatment. My already fairly developed rational mind told me that it was highly unlikely that the dentist was pulling faces in front of me, accompanied by carneval music - yet that's exactly what my senses were telling me.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

I imagine you perceive the world as full of separate beings and things. This is an illusion it is possible to see through. 

 

Yes and know. I have had many experiences of melding with things and beings and actually honed that skill in order to gather information about my clients when working as an alternative medical therapist.

 

For that matter, trust me that, once you walked around with someone else's backache all day, you will appreciate having your boundaries up and running most of the time. 😅

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

On this we agree. I'd be curious to hear about your experience of the veil lifting.

 

This happened unwittingly during a phase of intense meditation. During that time, once when I was out in the city, I felt some of my mental barier melt away, and the sensory input from my surroundings became so intense that it made me head for a nearby coffeeshop, so I could sit down and wait until the sense of overload decreased. It was then that I realized how much of the available sensory information my mind is usually filtering out - and  for good reasons!

 

Much later I learned that this was actually a well known fact in neurophysiology.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

You can definitely play with the sense of proprioception, and I can imagine that it could be a way in. Working with panoramic seeing is one step - I think you mentioned that you are doing this.

 

Well, I am familiar with so called eagle vision from my practice of internal martial arts.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

Practicing hearing sound and locating those sounds in the exterior environment is another. Imagining that all of your senses do not necessarily correspond to a body location might be another. 

 

Actually, they generally do (as long as I am not under the influence of laughing gas :D).

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

Not at all! There are pointers to realities non-dual nature not only in most religions, but in science and your everyday experience happening all the time. I use the word remediation on purpose. We spend a lot of our time reinforcing our dualistic way of seeing. Dropping our story about how things are and just being present, as well as working to accept reality in this moment as it is are fantastic practices that do not require any story about a tradition. It's good to hold the story we build, including the one about our practices or religion, lightly, IMHO. 

 

While I am writing all this, more and more, I am wondering if you aren't actually barking up the wrong tree. In a sense, it seems like my lesson was to learn dualism rather than non-dualism.

 

I remember reading that non-dualism is an infant's original state of perception. I assume that, with some, it stays more than with others.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

I'm glad we have some common ground.

 

 

Any good "non-dualist" (whatever that is) or Buddhist will press you to meditate. Honestly, that's enough. The philosophical arguments don't really get anyone anywhere. What you need to know is experiential, and you can do that without arguing if you are curious. 

 

A spiritual experience then?

 

Indeed, my sudden awareness of the "thinking" of the Sun is best  termed a spiritual or cosmic experience. And I would say it was also a non-dualistic experience, as my mind kind of melded with the Sun momentarily. This was accompanied by a lucid and awe inspiring sense that the Sun was as much aware of me as I was aware of him - just like he is aware of every little thing that exists in the solar system. It could even be described as an act of communication - only, to my regret, I couldn't understand the 'words' the Sun was uttering (they went way over my head, so to speak :D) - all I captured was their general intent.

 

It stands to reason that this kind of mystical experience formed the background for the ancient belief that "the Sun sees it all" - for instance, when Demeter was desperately trying to locate Persephone (which had been abducted by Hades), she asked the all-seeing Sun to enlighten her on her daughter's whereabouts.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

Either way, I would say that science is perfectly capable of inducing spiritual and religious experiences in people - and does. 

 

Sure, if you have been following my posts for any length of time, you will be aware that I am a representative of the scientific approach to spirituality - or the merging of science with mysticism.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

Mine too - only one of them is very obviously an illusion. I could trot out the common arguments for how the boundary of things is obviously artificial, but I'm guessing you've heard of that before. Just in case:

 

https://lafavephilosophy.x10host.com/The_Questions_of_King_Milinda.htm

 

Commenting on your allegorical story:

 

Milinda:  “Or perhaps the nails, teeth, skin, muscles, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, serous membranes, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach, excrement, the bile, phlegm, pus, blood, grease, fat, tears, sweat, spittle, snot, fluid of the joints, urine, or the brain in the skull – are they this ‘Nagasena’?”

 

Nagasena:  “No, great king!”

 

Milinda:  “Or is form this ‘Nagasena,’ or feeling, or perceptions, or impulses, or consciousness?”

 

Nagasena:  “No, great king!”

 

I would say that the sum total of all that constitutes Nagasena is indeed Nagasena, while his identity also lies encoded at the core of his every cell.

 

The conclusion that, since there is a certain fluidity to what constitutes the whole of Nagasena at any given time, there would be no Nagasena in the first place, is a non-sequitur IMO.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

 

I have great respect for that! Are the insights you might have something you can experience in this moment? This, IMHO, is one of the most important questions. 

 

And not a very easy one to answer, I am afraid.

 

I would say that some of my insights, and their associated state of mind, respectively, are tantamount to a permanent awareness. Others can be induced at will. Others again were experiences that came out of the blue and lasted for a certain amount of time.

 

On 14.5.2022 at 2:55 AM, stirling said:

 

Thank you for your post, Mr. Sternbach.

 

My pleasure, Stirling. And, BTW, just call me Michael.

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Curiously, I think there's general agreement that a person has to go through a very deep personal and emotional crisis, before they can succeed in experiencing action without their own personal agency.  

 

 

[Bindi]

On 26/5/2022 at 11:07 AM, steve said:

🙏🏼

 

I greatly benefit from Bön energy practices with the channels, winds, and chakras. The paradigm is similar to the Indian.

 

It’s always easy to kid oneself whether about nonduality, dreams, or anything else, who and what do we trust?

 

The source of information has to bypass the mundane mind, I think dreams are an accessible source for many people and if they are interpreted correctly, they can be very useful - unfortunately very few people can interpret them correctly, but it is a somewhat learnable skill, so it can be an avenue worth exploring. 
 

Having access to someone who is a medical intuitive (which is checkable) and also sees the subtle energy body (which can then be accepted on the grounds that the medical level seeing is proven) is invaluable, but there are very few of them. 

I wouldn’t trust any source other than these two. 

 

Quote

 

This is a benefit of non-interference practice.

 

 

On a subtle body level, non-interference seems unlikely to actually develop what is necessary. Say the goal is making your way through a particularly difficult labyrinth, it’s almost impossible by trial and error, and impossible if you just sit patiently at any point within the labyrinth, the only way is with a guide who can see the way either step by step or one who has an overview of the whole thing. Nonduality seems to say there is no labyrinth, it’s a solution of sorts, but if there is a labyrinth it’s not going to be very helpful. 

 

Quote

 

I hunted for a very long time and it’s different for me now. Nothing more to find or figure out really, not conceptually anyhow. Just far more opening and consistency would be nice.

 

I resonate with the ‘walk away’ part most at this point on my path. Non-interference. No kidding. Just leave it as it is. Not because things can’t be better but who is doing the improving?
 

 

Who would be the Self that wishes for the subtle energy body to be developed and flow according to it’s natural and authentic blueprint.  Unfortunately this Self can only be heard as a vague echo, and it is easily missed if you’re looking in the wrong direction. 

 

Quote

 

Can I trust space and awareness? Can I trust the internal narrator or external narrative? All are always there.

 

Barb sums it up elegantly…

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

On 28/5/2022 at 1:05 AM, dawn90 said:

Outside of Christ you're hopelessly full of sin you are correct.

That's why the realization that you have to get to.

Is to understand that under the current conditions you can't live from the heart because that heart doesn't recognize Christ.

You have to cultivate yourself up until that heart is refined to a sufficient extent that you can live naturally under Christ.

Because if you take it litteraly - then you don't do anything; quite the contrary: you're supposed to try then fail miserably and understand, my god; I really can't do it without Christ. That leads to the understanding that your heart still has to be refined - that you didn't make it like you thought you had.

 

 

I agree with this to a great extent, the point where I cannot do it without some Spiritual help which you are calling Christ is an acknowledgment that I am insufficient, it puts us in our place and allows the Spiritual in. 

 

On 28/5/2022 at 1:05 AM, dawn90 said:

 

Because you test: can you stop lying?

Even for one week?

Can you live by the ten commandments - and you're right you can't with this present heart you have today - so be careful.

 

Bindi mentioned this that non-dual realization might be an incomplete realization where you stop at maybe 70 percent and you think you've made it. Now if you believe in Christ you would know you haven't by testing yourself agains the ten commandments.

Until then: you have to use your brain - until the full transference to a heart based life is possible, under Christ.

Christ is the standard. Or Gautama Buddha - or some other ascended being; christianity is just really good at making you aware that this kind of deception is possible.

Don't stop there - you'll make it.

 

[steve]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

The source of information has to bypass the mundane mind, I think dreams are an accessible source for many people and if they are interpreted correctly, they can be very useful - unfortunately very few people can interpret them correctly, but it is a somewhat learnable skill, so it can be an avenue worth exploring. 
 

Having access to someone who is a medical intuitive (which is checkable) and also sees the subtle energy body (which can then be accepted on the grounds that the medical level seeing is proven) is invaluable, but there are very few of them. 

I wouldn’t trust any source other than these two. 

I do.

I trust the openness and awareness of my own heart, mind, and body easier than I trust an intuitive or interpreter. Both can be valuable but rare like you point out. And who’s to judge their accuracy? That can be tricky. When we develop trust in the inner source it’s always available and it’s been tested and proven.

 

Another way to approach dreams is to induce lucidity. Once that has stabilized we see the dream-like quality of reality and can break patterns and gain control in our lives by learning to change in dream time. Many other benefits of lucid dreaming in addition.

 

Quote

 

 

On a subtle body level, non-interference seems unlikely to actually develop what is necessary. Say the goal is making your way through a particularly difficult labyrinth, it’s almost impossible by trial and error, and impossible if you just sit patiently at any point within the labyrinth, the only way is with a guide who can see the way either step by step or one who has an overview of the whole thing. Nonduality seems to say there is no labyrinth, it’s a solution of sorts, but if there is a labyrinth it’s not going to be very helpful. 

Yes and no.

If there is no labyrinth, we can simply rest and act as needed, no distractions. That is the nondual way.

 

If the labyrinth is there and does not self-liberate we work with it. To whatever degree we can connect with the mind’s essence (nondual practice) we tend to make more progress. This is because there is no better guide, no one with a better overview than the inner guide when it is clear and pure, when we are connected. Another way to put it is that the one who finds themselves in the labyrinth is the one who created it in the first place so the way becomes more clear. So even in tantric practice the best way is to practice while resting in the nature of mind. Second best way is using the mind - reciting, hearing and seeing clearly, and understanding the meaning. Third way is praying with deep devotion and trust. 

 

Quote

 

Who would be the Self that wishes for the subtle energy body to be developed and flow according to it’s natural and authentic blueprint.  Unfortunately this Self can only be heard as a vague echo, and it is easily missed if you’re looking in the wrong direction. 

 

 

Indeed

If you can find the who with absolute certainty the labyrinths’ doors are open. Nondual practice supports us to find and become this who.

[liminal_luke]

Decades ago, while on a long pilgrimage walk, I felt like someone else was looking out through my eyes.  Well, not someone else really.  The person looking out was still me but not me as I usually experienced myself.  It didn't feel like possession or anything creepy like that. It felt good, like a deeper version of the usual me was peering out from within my body.  I'm not sure my experience has anything to do with the topic of this thread but on the off chance it does, I thought I'd throw it out.

[Bindi]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

I do.

I trust the openness and awareness of my own heart, mind, and body easier than an intuitive or interpreter. Both can be valuable but rare like you point out. And who’s to judge their accuracy? That can be tricky. When we develop trust in the inner source it’s always available and it’s been tested and proven.

 

 

If your mundane mind is part of what you trust as a feedback system it would be like putting a 2 year old in charge of the cookie jar, bad judgement is inevitable. If your heart isn’t thoroughly cleansed it also is likely to mislead, your body is least likely to mislead but it’s not terribly wise. 

 

7 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Another way to approach dreams is to induce lucidity. Once that has stabilized we see the dream-like quality of reality and can break patterns and gain control in our lives by learning to change in dream time. Many other benefits of lucid dreaming in addition.

 

 

I’ve never understood the rationale behind lucid dreaming. The mind is not wise, it is entangled with ego, and lucid dreaming introduces this mind into the echo from the higher Self. Instead of listening you poison the echo with the egoic mind. 

 

7 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Yes and no.

If there is no labyrinth, we can simply rest and act as needed, no distractions. That is the nondual way.

 

If the labyrinth is there and does not self-liberate we work with it. To whatever degree we can connect with the mind’s essence (nondual practice) we tend to make more progress.
 

 

What are the benefits of nonduality, being in the moment, feelings of oneness, non-judgement - if there is a labyrinth these are not the tools that will get you through it. If there is a labyrinth what you need is a map, and the wisdom and discernment to read it, mull it’s directions over and then follow those directions. 

 

7 minutes ago, steve said:

This is because there is no better guide, “no one” with a better overview than the inner guide when it is clear and pure. So in tantric practice the best way is connecting with the nature of mind.

 

What you want to connect to is fundamentally different to what I want to connect to. Your nature of mind is nondual with nothing that needs to be done, the source I want to connect to gives specific directions (albeit sometimes cryptic or metaphorical) for bringing the subtle body to its full potential. 

 

7 minutes ago, steve said:

Second best way is using the mind - reciting, hearing and visualizing clearly, and understanding the meaning. Third way is praying with deep devotion and trust. 

 

Indeed

If you can find the who with absolute certainty the labyrinths’ doors are open. Nondual practice supports us to find and become this who.

 

[steve]

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

If your mundane mind is part of what you trust as a feedback system it would be like putting a 2 year old in charge of the cookie jar, bad judgement is inevitable. If your heart isn’t thoroughly cleansed it also is likely to mislead, your body is least likely to mislead but it’s not terribly wise. 

The mind is not what is being trusted in nondual practice.

Trust grows out of the tangible benefits we derive from practice.

Of course mind always involved in assessing our path and our progress.

What else do we have? Mind and it's essence, there is nothing beyond that. 

The subtle body is a encompassed by that as is the physical body.

Note that in your approach you are in fact putting that 2 year old in charge. 

 

Quote

I’ve never understood the rationale behind lucid dreaming. The mind is not wise, it is entangled with ego, and lucid dreaming introduces this mind into the echo from the higher Self. Instead of listening you poison the echo with the egoic mind. 

The mind is what is interpreting the dream whether lucid or after the fact.

The higher Self is what exactly?

In my view it is a projection or aspect of mind.

Wisdom is connection to the mind's essence, there is no higher Self other than that in my view.

We will simply need to disagree, our perspectives are different.

 

Quote

What are the benefits of nonduality, being in the moment, feelings of oneness, non-judgement - if there is a labyrinth these are not the tools that will get you through it. If there is a labyrinth what you need is a map, and the wisdom and discernment to read it, mull it’s directions over and then follow those directions. 

The benefits of a nondual approach are non-interference, wu wei.

We trust in the process itself, analogous perhaps to your higher Self.

Or we see through the one who created it and is lost in the labyrinth and it simply dissolves.

 

Quote

What you want to connect to is fundamentally different to what I want to connect to. Your nature of mind is nondual with nothing that needs to be done, the source I want to connect to gives specific directions (albeit sometimes cryptic or metaphorical) for bringing the subtle body to its full potential. 

Some feel nothing needs to be done, for them that is truth.

Some feel things need to be done, for them that is truth.

The nature of mind is the same for both and is the best source of directions, it is the prevalence of mind that is different.

And of course either could be wrong. 

 

[old3bob]

it is simple, mind is inherently dualistic and can never be anything other than that, although the non-dualistic needs mind to be perfectly still and clear for The Self to shine through into the manifest to whatever degree possible instead of It being veiled with veils.

Edited May 29, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, steve said:

The mind is not what is being trusted in nondual practice.

 

So when you say “heart, mind, and body”, there is no mundane mind in that equation? 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Trust grows out of the tangible benefits we derive from practice.

 

A lot of different practices will give a lot of different results, each according to their own practice. I recall one practice develops a hard lump in the belly, this is seen as a tangible result with associated benefits, but you and I might not see it as particularly relevant to any authentic achievement. What I’m trying to get at is that a person can be quite happy with their results, but those results aren’t objectively valuable, merely valuable to a practitioner who employs a specific method which delivers specific results. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Of course mind always involved in assessing our path and our progress.

What else do we have? Mind and it's essence, there is nothing beyond that. 
 

 

Qi has nothing to do with the mind, if you can access Qi and there are health improvements, that can be assessed somewhat more objectively. Say there is something considered incurable, for example the herpes simplex virus and the evidence of regular cold sores, if that can be removed via qi then whether you have a cold sore again or not is a non-mind assessment, it can cross over into a scientific assessment. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

The subtle body is a encompassed by that as is the physical body.

Note that in your approach you are in fact putting that 2 year old in charge. 

 

How so if I am making a distinction between mundane mind and echoes from Higher Self? The two year old is required to listen and act on instructions, not to make decisions. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

The mind is what is interpreting the dream whether lucid or after the fact.

 

The mind is used to interpret a message, not to interfere with a message. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

The higher Self is what exactly?

In my view it is a projection or aspect of mind.

Wisdom is connection to the mind's essence, there is no higher Self other than that in my view.

 

To me the higher Self has a broader perspective than my mundane mind, though I don’t definitively know where or what it actually is. I really only know that there is a voice within that is worth listening to as it has an understanding of how things are and how they need to be and a program of how to get there if we could only hear or know it. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

We will simply need to disagree, our perspectives are different.

 

 

Of course  

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

The benefits of a nondual approach are non-interference, wu wei.

 

As I said before I agree there is a time for wuwei, but if wuwei is instigated too early it’s like resting before the field is planted and being content with that. Perhaps it’s pleasant to rest, but I’d prefer the field to be productive and then rest. 

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

We trust in the process itself, analogous perhaps to your higher Self.

 

I don’t think it is analogous.

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

Or we see through the one who created it and is lost in the labyrinth and it simply dissolves.

 

The labyrinth to me is more finding the way through confusion and developing discernment as to what is necessary and unnecessary, and killing a Minotaur or two on the way. Clearly we differ in what we discern to be necessary.   

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Some feel nothing needs to be done, for them that is truth.

Some feel things need to be done, for them that is truth.

The nature of mind is the same for both and is the best source of directions, it is the prevalence of mind that is different.

And of course either could be wrong. 

 

Truth is not in the eye of the beholder, I think there are more effective and less effective ways of climbing the mountain and beyond, which makes some paths better and some paths worse. 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

........

 

On a subtle body level, non-interference seems unlikely to actually develop what is necessary. Say the goal is making your way through a particularly difficult labyrinth, it’s almost impossible by trial and error, and impossible if you just sit patiently at any point within the labyrinth, the only way is with a guide who can see the way either step by step or one who has an overview of the whole thing. Nonduality seems to say there is no labyrinth, it’s a solution of sorts, but if there is a labyrinth it’s not going to be very helpful. 

 

I think this is an important point.  Ancient and thus pre-philosophical cultures (e.g. the Egyptians) saw the spiritual journey as an equivalent of an actual physical journey, with different terrains and obstacles to negotiate.  The key was that negotiating different spaces/realms required different skills, knowledge and approaches.  What this did to the traveller was to make them develop a full range of perspectives until they came to what might be called a total perspective - or to put it another way, if you can negotiate any of the obstacles put in your way then you are free.  Free but not unchanged - transformed in fact.   As a very basic example you might attempt to get past a brick wall by trying to beat it down, but then exhausted by that, sit and examine the wall, try to climb the wall or learn to fly over it.  By the time you are finished you have a variety of skills.  It is possible at some stage you might realise that there is no wall ... or that it is a projection and so on ... but even then you have learned something.

 

The reason that they (the ancients) had confidence in their ability to progress is a) they made maps to study b ) they had confidence in innate intelligence represented by gods such as Thoth or Anubis and c) they understood that there was a 'natural' way through which was the path of the Sun to which they could hitch a ride so to speak.

 

Quote

 

Who would be the Self that wishes for the subtle energy body to be developed and flow according to it’s natural and authentic blueprint.  Unfortunately this Self can only be heard as a vague echo, and it is easily missed if you’re looking in the wrong direction. 

 

 

 

The Self has agency as I suggested above and will guide if allowed.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Apech

[Michael Sternbach]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

it is simple, mind is inherently dualistic and can never be anything other than that, although the non-dualistic needs mind to be perfectly still and clear for The Self to shine through into the manifest to whatever degree possible instead of It being veiled with veils.

 

The mind that is inherently dualistic and yet perfectly still and clear is the balanced mind.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The mind that is inherently dualistic and yet perfectly still and clear is the balanced mind.

I'll bite, if you want to expound on that...

[Bindi]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Decades ago, while on a long pilgrimage walk, I felt like someone else was looking out through my eyes.  Well, not someone else really.  The person looking out was still me but not me as I usually experienced myself.  It didn't feel like possession or anything creepy like that. It felt good, like a deeper version of the usual me was peering out from within my body.  I'm not sure my experience has anything to do with the topic of this thread but on the off chance it does, I thought I'd throw it out.

For a Daoist take:

 

The Dao itself resides in the human being as the Supreme Lord of the Central Ultimate (Shangshang zhongji jun). It is the individual "self" (wu), also called Zidan (Child-Cinnabar) or Red Child (chizi).

 

 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/inner_gods.html

[stirling]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:16 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

Hmm. On the one hand, our senses are designed to accurately locate and identify the source of their input.

 

By whom? I think that is just a story we tell ourselves.

 

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On the other hand, they are prone to deception. I learned that lesson already in my early teenage years, when I was once anasthetized with laughing gas for a dental treatment. My already fairly developed rational mind told me that it was highly unlikely that the dentist was pulling faces in front of me, accompanied by carneval music - yet that's exactly what my senses were telling me.

 

Definitely.  I think this is more accurate story of our senses. Ultimately there is just sensation. The story about whether they are pleasant or unpleasant, or what have you, is ours. Ultimately, at the base level, there are just phenomena arising in awareness. 

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This happened unwittingly during a phase of intense meditation. During that time, once when I was out in the city, I felt some of my mental barier melt away, and the sensory input from my surroundings became so intense that it made me head for a nearby coffeeshop, so I could sit down and wait until the sense of overload decreased. It was then that I realized how much of the available sensory information my mind is usually filtering out - and  for good reasons!

 

Much later I learned that this was actually a well known fact in neurophysiology.

 

 

There is much more to see without the layer of thinking mind in between pure sensation. 

 

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I remember reading that non-dualism is an infant's original state of perception. I assume that, with some, it stays more than with others.

 

It's possible, but I'm not sure how we would know. What matters is what our state of being is now, of course.

 

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Indeed, my sudden awareness of the "thinking" of the Sun is best  termed a spiritual or cosmic experience. And I would say it was also a non-dualistic experience, as my mind kind of melded with the Sun momentarily. This was accompanied by a lucid and awe inspiring sense that the Sun was as much aware of me as I was aware of him - just like he is aware of every little thing that exists in the solar system. It could even be described as an act of communication - only, to my regret, I couldn't understand the 'words' the Sun was uttering (they went way over my head, so to speak :D) - all I captured was their general intent.

 

This is often the kind of "spiritual' experience that precedes awaking. 

 

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Sure, if you have been following my posts for any length of time, you will be aware that I am a representative of the scientific approach to spirituality - or the merging of science with mysticism.

 

I haven't but I appreciate your thoughtful posting style.

 

I think that science itself is a mysticism, rather than a route to uncovering any explicit reality. As I have probably stated elsewhere, it is limited by the way it is constructed: It creates models from selected variables to create repeatable experiments, and is therefore unable to encompass reality which has infinite variables. No model can be constructed that encompasses the entirety of everything and its holographic interactions. This doesn't mean I don't think it is useful or interesting.

 

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Commenting on your allegorical story:

 

Milinda:  “Or perhaps the nails, teeth, skin, muscles, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, serous membranes, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach, excrement, the bile, phlegm, pus, blood, grease, fat, tears, sweat, spittle, snot, fluid of the joints, urine, or the brain in the skull – are they this ‘Nagasena’?”

 

Nagasena:  “No, great king!”

 

Milinda:  “Or is form this ‘Nagasena,’ or feeling, or perceptions, or impulses, or consciousness?”

 

Nagasena:  “No, great king!”

 

I would say that the sum total of all that constitutes Nagasena is indeed Nagasena, while his identity also lies encoded at the core of his every cell.

 

 

Interesting... but can we "decode" that, or even see that encoding?

 

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The conclusion that, since there is a certain fluidity to what constitutes the whole of Nagasena at any given time, there would be no Nagasena in the first place, is a non-sequitur IMO.

 

There is only ever "Nagasena" as it exists in this moment, and as it is defined as separate from its environment. The definition, like all intellectual aspersions of separateness is entirely conceptual in nature. 

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

 

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I would say that some of my insights, and their associated state of mind, respectively, are tantamount to a permanent awareness.  Others can be induced at will. Others again were experiences that came out of the blue and lasted for a certain amount of time.

 

Aren't these insights something that come and go? You have them, then they pass? Is there something that is an insight that doesn't depend on a "self" to see it?

 

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My pleasure, Stirling. And, BTW, just call me Michael.

 

Michael it is. Thank you for your post. 

 

[stirling]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Decades ago, while on a long pilgrimage walk, I felt like someone else was looking out through my eyes.  Well, not someone else really.  The person looking out was still me but not me as I usually experienced myself.  It didn't feel like possession or anything creepy like that. It felt good, like a deeper version of the usual me was peering out from within my body.  I'm not sure my experience has anything to do with the topic of this thread but on the off chance it does, I thought I'd throw it out.

 

Seems like a moment of non-doership. I sometimes have this feeling too. If it happens again see if you can notice that the body is taking care of itself and its motion in the same moment.

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think this is an important point.  Ancient and thus pre-philosophical cultures (e.g. the Egyptians) saw the spiritual journey as an equivalent of an actual physical journey, with different terrains and obstacles to negotiate. 
 

 

Neidan also has different terrains and obstacles, trees, towers, mountains, passes, doors, gates, pools, wells, tubes, cauldrons, walls, chambers, houses, villages, pavilions, palaces and gardens. 

 

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The key was that negotiating different spaces/realms required different skills, knowledge and approaches.  What this did to the traveller was to make them develop a full range of perspectives until they came to what might be called a total perspective - or to put it another way, if you can negotiate any of the obstacles put in your way then you are free.  Free but not unchanged - transformed in fact.   As a very basic example you might attempt to get past a brick wall by trying to beat it down, but then exhausted by that, sit and examine the wall, try to climb the wall or learn to fly over it.  By the time you are finished you have a variety of skills.  It is possible at some stage you might realise that there is no wall ... or that it is a projection and so on ... but even then you have learned something.

 

 

In neidan gates and doors are opened, they don’t disappear as such. 

 

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The reason that they (the ancients) had confidence in their ability to progress is a) they made maps to study b ) they had confidence in innate intelligence represented by gods such as Thoth or Anubis and c) they understood that there was a 'natural' way through which was the path of the Sun to which they could hitch a ride so to speak.

 

 

The Self has agency as I suggested above and will guide if allowed.

 

 

 

[stirling]

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

What are the benefits of nonduality, being in the moment, feelings of oneness, non-judgement - if there is a labyrinth these are not the tools that will get you through it. If there is a labyrinth what you need is a map, and the wisdom and discernment to read it, mull it’s directions over and then follow those directions. 

 

With realization, being, oneness and non-judgement are the proof that the labyrinth is an illusion. This is awakening.

 

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I have lived on the lip
of insanity, wanting to know reasons,
knocking on a door. It opens.
I’ve been knocking from the inside! - Rumi

 

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The Great Way has no gate.

There are a thousand paths to it.

If you pass through the barrier

you walk the universe alone.

- Wu Men

 

 

The "puzzle" with its corresponding illusory complexity dissolves when insight arises.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

With realization, being, oneness and non-judgement are the proof that the labyrinth is an illusion. This is awakening.

 

 

 

The "puzzle" with its corresponding illusory complexity dissolves when insight arises.

Yes this is the nondual line,  but I prefer to work on the subtle energy body because I think there is a fundamental problem with it that needs to be resolved. All very dual, but that’s where I’ve laid my bets. 
 

Here’s my theory for today, nonduality is the culmination of the patriarchal fix, initially emotions were suspect and then with the introduction of meditation mental activity also became suspect, until we came to the ultimate rationale that they are all illusion anyway. The new way is a matriarchal system where emotions are meaningful and their health starts to heal the entire subtle energy system, mental activity is part of the whole, and a foetus that represents our spiritual self has to be created and birthed. 

 

Edit: Just to be clear I think humanity in general has an emotional problem, and the real fix involves sorting this out. 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bindi

[dawn90]

How far in are you feeling this subtle body @Bindi?