Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

4 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

The problem with this is that non-dual awakening doesn't involve judgment or morality.  Just isness.  No one to judge the good or badness.

 

I'm sure you're right about the nondualists: they're not caught up in judging the goodness or badness of other people.  For better or worse, I'm a dyed in the wool dualist and love nothing more than to judge.  When I look at the behavior of those who appear to have some level of awakening, I like what I see.  The nondualists I know tend to steer clear of internet arguments, for instance.  They tend not to make the mistake of thinking that what's true for them is true for everybody else.  I'm a big fan of what I judge to be the moral behavior of the nondualists in my immediate circle.  Of course I could be wrong.  Others will point out evidence of misbehavior among those who claim awakening.  Who knows?

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm sure you're right about the nondualists: they're not caught up in judging the goodness or badness of other people.  For better or worse, I'm a dyed in the wool dualist and love nothing more than to judge.  When I look at the behavior of those who appear to have some level of awakening, I like what I see.  The nondualists I know tend to steer clear of internet arguments, for instance.  They tend not to make the mistake of thinking that what's true for them is true for everybody else.  I'm a big fan of what I judge to be the moral behavior of the nondualists in my immediate circle.  Of course I could be wrong.  Others will point out evidence of misbehavior among those who claim awakening.  Who knows?

 

Reading this post going 'tut tut, well what do you expect from a Luke?'

 

[manitou]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm sure you're right about the nondualists: they're not caught up in judging the goodness or badness of other people.  For better or worse, I'm a dyed in the wool dualist and love nothing more than to judge.  When I look at the behavior of those who appear to have some level of awakening, I like what I see.  The nondualists I know tend to steer clear of internet arguments, for instance.  They tend not to make the mistake of thinking that what's true for them is true for everybody else.  I'm a big fan of what I judge to be the moral behavior of the nondualists in my immediate circle.  Of course I could be wrong.  Others will point out evidence of misbehavior among those who claim awakening.  Who knows?

 

 

The non dualist would say that we're all one, and that the one you've judged to be less than awakened are indeed the same as the awakened one.  The non dualist would say that there is no separate god, that we're It.  We're the man behind the scary wizard of Oz.  He would also say that we're all one and the same entity, separated only by different conditionings.  The same entity dumped into various skin bags, that's all.  And that if you had the same conditioning as the unawakened one who is behaving badly, that you would be behaving in the very same way.  Some would call the awakened one Hiram Abiff.

 

It seems to me that this is the highest form of love, to be non judgmental to all.  Compassion, agape love.  It can be attached or unattached at will.

 

[forestofemptiness]

20 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm a big fan of what I judge to be the moral behavior of the nondualists in my immediate circle. 

 

Where do you live? Tibet? 

 

Finding people even interested in nondualism seems fairly rare IME. 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by forestofemptiness

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Where do you live? Tibet? 

 

 

 

Ensenada, Baja California.

 

The nondualists here are entirely free from patriarchal tendencies.  What's more, they never use positions of power to unduly influence their many followers.  Sexual misbehavior, alledgedly common outside of Mexico, is virtually unheard of among awakened Ensenadenses.  YMMV

 

(Just joking above.  My opinions about nondualist practitioners are based on what I've gleaned from online interactions.)

Edited May 22, 2022 by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ensenada, Baja California.

 

The nondualists here are entirely free from patriarchal tendencies.  What's more, they never use positions of power to unduly influence their many followers.  Sexual misbehavior, alledgedly common outside of Mexico, is virtually unheard of among awakened Ensenadenses.  YMMV

 

is a place called Housangs or something like that still in Ensenada?

Edited May 22, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

35 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

The non dualist would say that we're all one, and that the one you've judged to be less than awakened are indeed the same as the awakened one.  The non dualist would say that there is no separate god, that we're It.  We're the man behind the scary wizard of Oz.  He would also say that we're all one and the same entity, separated only by different conditionings.  The same entity dumped into various skin bags, that's all.  And that if you had the same conditioning as the unawakened one who is behaving badly, that you would be behaving in the very same way.  Some would call the awakened one Hiram Abiff.

 

It seems to me that this is the highest form of love, to be non judgmental to all.  Compassion, agape love.  It can be attached or unattached at will.

 

 

don't mean to be a party pooper but deadly snakes given non-judgmental treatment still bite for it is there nature to do so...

Edited May 22, 2022 by old3bob

[dawn90]

40 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Sexual misbehavior, alledgedly common outside of Mexico, is virtually unheard of among awakened Ensenadenses.  YMMV

 

Wait til you start hearing about it.

[liminal_luke]

40 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

is a place called Housangs or something like that still in Ensenada?

 

Yes, it's still going strong.

[ralis]

50 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

don't mean to be a party pooper but deadly snakes given non-judgmental treatment still bite for it is there nature to do so...

 

Exactly. Non-dual/nonjudgemental as some perceive it is abject passivity. A very dangerous path!

Edited May 22, 2022 by ralis

[dawn90]

On 21-05-2022 at 1:12 PM, schroedingerscat said:

Can you please elaborate what you mean by this? Giving an example? Why is the one being nurtured driven down? ?

 

Well.

Here. You're not talking about genuine nurturing, what I was talking about is that an abuser can use the nurturing type of caring in order to manipulate you, an example would be, somebody driving you up.

I mean energetically.

Like being comforting.

Soothing.

Saying you can trust them.

Raising your energies through him.

The trouble with that is that you start relying on him for moving up your energies.

Lets say I was an abuser.

And you were down.

I wouldnt go at you shouting at you - especially if I wasn't your father.

Now that wouldn't work.

What would work. Is offering you things that make you feel good - a substitute parent. I would try to raise your energies knowing full well that by doing so I become your master.

Now how does that happen? By installing triggers: If I move your energies, I do all the work. I'm indicating to you not just that I love you but that your energies can't be moved without me exercising power on them.

My will is what moved you. Therefore my will is what can bring you down.

Next step when I've got my little Schroedingerscat all enamored with me.

I start becoming unavailable.

Like we were going out.

I start moving away, and you'll soon find that you can't live without me.

 

You've been effectively turned into my slave; and I; into your master.

Why?

Because I've raised energies that can't be sustained up without forcing them up.

 

If I'm an abuser. I'm naturally stronger than you. I contain; in my body. A greater ability to hold energy.

Now.

On the other hand you're not as energetically developed as me. You can't hold it - unless I'm there to help you.

I force those energies up knowing they'll come down when I leave. When they do leave you when they drop down I'll reapper maybe lift them up - and put you under a cycle again.

 

I do that a few times; up and down, up and down - until you're more down.

And you'll be on your knees: begging.

Begging for me to stay, and you'll do anything to please me just as long as I stay with you forever and ever.

 

You're in bondage.

 

Another good example fo this is simply taking drugs.

Drugs promise you mind expansion; spiritual breakthroughs, that you can't sustain, and your body keeps asking for more.

You drop down and soon find yourself addicted to the substance that gives you what you cannot effectively give yourself, that must be the reason that gurus aren't supposed to work for you but help you get there by yourself.

A good father would be aware of this, I believe this is called triggers.

 

You know when your parents show up and you become a child again. That sort of thing.

They own you.

So that I would say would fall under the responsability of the father, if he is a father that loves you.

But to see the wisdom is difficult.

I hope that helps.

 

Warning - might be triggering

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PEJ3AgOnb4

Edited May 22, 2022 by dawn90

[old3bob]

44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes, it's still going strong.

 

Had some fun at that place back in the early 70's.  I remember various singers, musicians and guys selling stuff attached to the  inside their coats as they  passed by customers who watched all the goings on while having their meals or drinks.  A good time for all!

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

While it's true that psychological factors play a role in many disease processes, I'm not a fan of this kind of analysis.  For starters, it wrongly lumps all cancers in a single category, as if everybody who has cancer is the same.  It leads people who are already suffering with their health to suffer doubly feeling they are responsible for their condition.  If a person with a health condition comes to understand how something in their emotional makeup led to their condition, that's one thing.  Third parties have no business making definitive statements.

 

What if you smoked a pack of cigarettes per day and ended up with lung cancer, I could rightly say your smoking caused your lung cancer without being offensive, or maybe the doctor would say it and I’d just think it. If people became aware of the link between cancer and passivity it wouldn’t be a judgement, just a fact. If you don’t know about the link you are unfortunately ignorant but still likely to get cancer, if you do know about the link and ignore it then you’re like the pack a day smoker willing to take the risk. Seems more beneficial to me to consider her ideas about emotional balance being necessary than finding fault with her data driven statements. 
 

edit to add: Ramana Maharshi got cancer, and simply accepted it as was his nondual wont. Other people wanted to treat it and tried various methods, which he also simply accepted. In the end none of the treatments worked and he died. Perhaps this demonstrates the pinnacle of nonattachment, or perhaps it shines a spotlight on the consequences of the passive acceptance associated with ‘nonduality’.
 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

31 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

What if you smoked a pack of cigarettes per day and ended up with lung cancer, I could rightly say your smoking caused your lung cancer without being offensive, or maybe the doctor would say it and I’d just think it. If people became aware of the link between cancer and passivity it wouldn’t be a judgement, just a fact. If you don’t know about the link you are unfortunately ignorant but still likely to get cancer, if you do know about the link and ignore it then you’re like the pack a day smoker willing to take the risk. Seems more beneficial to me to consider her ideas about emotional balance being necessary than finding fault with her data driven statements. 
 

edit to add: Ramana Maharshi got cancer, and simply accepted it as was his nondual wont. Other people wanted to treat it and tried various methods, which he also simply accepted. In the end none of the treatments worked and he died. Perhaps this demonstrates the pinnacle of nonattachment, or perhaps it shines a spotlight on the consequences of the passive acceptance associated with ‘nonduality’.
 

 

 

Dr. Wilhelm Reich conducted extensive research on emotional suppression being a cause of chronic disease that ties to Dr. Hunt's research. His work also concluded that emotional suppression underlies fascism.

 

The quest to realize non-duality may not resolve emotional suppression. 

[ralis]

The final Star Wars movie "The Rise of Skywalker" delved into duality and non-duality. For those that paid attention, phowa or transference of consciousness, was an important component. Teachings can be anywhere, at any time.

Edited May 23, 2022 by ralis

[manitou]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

don't mean to be a party pooper but deadly snakes given non-judgmental treatment still bite for it is there nature to do so..

 

 

Is that a bad thing?

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

Depends how one feels about being bitten by a deadly snake. Calm or freak out?

[manitou]

44 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Depends how one feels about being bitten by a deadly snake. Calm or freak out?

 

Depends on how you feel about dying.

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

Dr. Wilhelm Reich conducted extensive research on emotional suppression

 

How do lockdowns and quarantines affect emotional suppression?    Is that known to governments?

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Is that a bad thing?

 

 is that being over the top dismissive? 

[manitou]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 is that being over the top dismissive? 

 

 

It's being realistic and being pragmatic.  It's a mindset.  If you can stay in touch with the place within that doesn't age and doesn't move, it's a realization that it doesn't matter when we live or die, that awareness is constant whether in body or out, that we live within the form of oroborous, the place of eternity.  It removes fear of anything.  Identifying with the body at any given moment is a choice, identifying with the eternal is also a choice.  This is self awareness, and it's not over the top at all.

[manitou]

18 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes, it's still going strong.

 

 

Señor Frog's?

[liminal_luke]

Just now, manitou said:

 

 

Señor Frog's?

 

I haven't looked for it lately but I remember seeing the place so I think so, yes.

[ralis]

9 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

How do lockdowns and quarantines affect emotional suppression?    Is that known to governments?

 

We are discussing non-dual and duality.

[Apech]

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

What if you smoked a pack of cigarettes per day and ended up with lung cancer, I could rightly say your smoking caused your lung cancer without being offensive, or maybe the doctor would say it and I’d just think it. If people became aware of the link between cancer and passivity it wouldn’t be a judgement, just a fact. If you don’t know about the link you are unfortunately ignorant but still likely to get cancer, if you do know about the link and ignore it then you’re like the pack a day smoker willing to take the risk. Seems more beneficial to me to consider her ideas about emotional balance being necessary than finding fault with her data driven statements. 
 

edit to add: Ramana Maharshi got cancer, and simply accepted it as was his nondual wont. Other people wanted to treat it and tried various methods, which he also simply accepted. In the end none of the treatments worked and he died. Perhaps this demonstrates the pinnacle of nonattachment, or perhaps it shines a spotlight on the consequences of the passive acceptance associated with ‘nonduality’.
 

 

 

I had a friend who did research into cancer victims and psychological/spiritual causes and found that the one theme in all the interviews she carried out was that the patients had gone through a time in their lives when they should have changed and didn't.  I suppose this could be termed a kind of passivity - or perhaps more a habitualness.  Maybe in the subtle body this same factor is reflected in the fields that this lady is picking up.

 

It's a feature of the great Karmapa Lamas that they predict their own deaths.  The Sixteenth Karmapa got liver cancer and died (without painkillers).  I guess you could say he and others accepted death - but also it raises the question why if they are great realised beings why they didn't heal themselves (?)  But this could also go to the non-dual perspective in that if physical death is directly perceived as more of a transition or phase change then the status of physical death is diminished - and perhaps a master on knowing they are dying just accepts it (?).  Perhaps the status of physical death is changed relative to how we see it.