Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[SirPalomides]

I respect his rigor here but I wonder if Bhikkhu Bodhi would use the same language today, particularly that suggesting the teaching in the Pali scriptures is the true Buddhism. This essay was written in 1998; we know that a few years later he came to live in Chinese-American Mahayana monasteries in an atmosphere of mutual respect, up to the present day. 

[Bindi]

The same concept is written here https://www.existentialbuddhist.com/tag/nonduality/
 

 

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Non-duality is an important concept in Zen, but it’s a relative latecomer on the Buddhist scene. The Pali Canon, the earliest strata of Buddhist sutras, makes no reference to it, and it only finds its full flowering in Nagarjuna’s 2nd century writings on emptiness and Asanga and Vasubandhu’s 4th century writings on subject-object non-dualism. Non-duality is also a crucial concept within Advaita Vedanta, a non-Buddhist philosophical school which developed alongside the Mahayana in India.

I am no Buddhist scholar, but this makes me wonder…

 

Bhikkhu Bodhi stressed that discrimination was fundamental in the Buddha’s method, and it strikes me that discrimination is the key to the fourth kosha:

 

The fourth of the five koshas is vijnanamaya kosha—the wisdom sheath. Vijnanamaya encompasses intuition and intellect. It can be thought of as the witness mind, or that aspect of our consciousness that is not entangled in what we are doing or thinking, but rather, acutely aware of what we are doing and thinking.

 

Did the Buddha bring full consciousness to this kosha but not the next one along, anandamaya kosha, thus having nothing to say about the nondual qualities of anandamaya kosha, nor about the ‘Self’ which lies deeper than both.

 

 

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It is felt that a disciplined mind leads to happiness and an undisciplined mind leads to suffering, and in fact it is said that bringing about discipline within one's mind is the essence of the Buddha's teaching.” 
― Dalai Lama XIV, The Art of Happiness

 

[ralis]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I’m not saying his tears aren’t genuine, but you don’t need ‘nondual awakening’ to cry. 

 

 

That or he’s actually just able to be honest with himself and others and knows he hasn’t ‘arrived’ yet. 

 

 

Does love and compassion require being ‘nondually awake’? Is love and compassion always evident in the nondually awakened? Can you be nondually awake and sexually abusive, or condone sexual abuse? I thought morality and nondual status were not intrinsically connected? 

 

Openness to receiving is not an achievement in itself, discretion is also important, people are open to cult leaders, to negative energy input, to evil leaders. ‘One has to be open to receive’ is lovely and fluffy but not necessarily wise. 
 

 

 

Ken Wilbur has written on this in books or discussed in interviews. If I remember correctly he is in agreement with the disconnection of morality and non-dual awakening.

 

Trungpa's sexual abuses as well as his successor are well documented. Thomas Rich Trungpa's successor was HIV positive and spread AIDS to any number of students in the Boulder Colorado community. Enlightened sex? Rich and several others died of AIDS.

 

Namkhai Norbu once said that if one is beyond rules then one must be aware that others still have rules. Norbu's terrible relationship with his son has been well documented in film and writings.

 

The list can go on and on, and there is voluminous documentation online regarding cults and renegade gurus.

 

As for myself I have stayed away from any meditation groups including Tibetan meditation sessions etc. Santa Fe NM is full of about anything one desires in the spiritual universe. Caveat emptor! Although, I did participate in the Kagyu community for years until the political insanity was way too much, then I left!

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by ralis

[SirPalomides]

Yeah, I too find it hard to square the amazing claims made about tantric or Zen practice with the behavior of its enlightened gurus. And the Catholic church could really take some notes from the twisted arguments used to excuse such stuff. 

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The same concept is written here https://www.existentialbuddhist.com/tag/nonduality/
 

 

I am no Buddhist scholar, but this makes me wonder…

 

Bhikkhu Bodhi stressed that discrimination was fundamental in the Buddha’s method, and it strikes me that discrimination is the key to the fourth kosha:

 

The fourth of the five koshas is vijnanamaya kosha—the wisdom sheath. Vijnanamaya encompasses intuition and intellect. It can be thought of as the witness mind, or that aspect of our consciousness that is not entangled in what we are doing or thinking, but rather, acutely aware of what we are doing and thinking.

 

Did the Buddha bring full consciousness to this kosha but not the next one along, anandamaya kosha, thus having nothing to say about the nondual qualities of anandamaya kosha, nor about the ‘Self’ which lies deeper than both.

 

 

 

 

The standard suggested dates for the Buddha are : c. 563 - c. 483 BCE and the Pali Canon was first written down during the Fourth Buddhist Council in 29 BCE, approximately 454 years after the death of Gautama Buddha.  Nagarjuna lived around 150 - 250 AD ... just to put the 'late arrival' in context  ... The Pali Canon was a product of a particular school of scholastic and dualist Buddhism - so yes it is not 'non-dualist'.  However Nagarjuna developed his ideas directly from the Buddha's teachings on dependent origination:

 

"I salute the Fully Enlightened One, the best of orators, who taught the doctrine of dependent origination, according to which there is neither cessation nor origination, neither annihilation nor the eternal, neither singularity nor plurality, neither the coming nor the going [of any dharma, for the purpose of nirvāṇa characterized by] the auspicious cessation of hypostatization.[17]"

 

So Nagarjuna and the Yogacara thinkers in the Mahayana were not refuting the Buddha's position but elaborating/explaining it - or that is how they would see it.

 

Also remember that it is likely that the mahayana approach if not a separate school existed alongside the Hinayana from early times in the monasteries.

 

Given the almost 500 years gap between the Lord Buddha and the Pali Canon the claim that Theravada is original in any sense is thin.

 

 

[ralis]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

Yeah, I too find it hard to square the amazing claims made about tantric or Zen practice with the behavior of its enlightened gurus. And the Catholic church could really take some notes from the twisted arguments used to excuse such stuff. 

 

Here in Santa Fe NM the Archdiocese replaces the abusive priests with more abusive priests. The lawsuits are up to $121.5 million and as far as I know there is no prison time. 

 

Sexual/emotional suppression leads to really bad consequences!

Edited May 20, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

It's not all dead serious....

Lama Yeshe's power to touch our hearts transcends time and space. This 36 year old film is from the final session of extensive teachings on the six yogas of the glorious Naropa given to the fortunate students in 1983 in Boulder Creek, California. BIG LOVE Follow Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive Facebook: 

 

Did you go out to Boulder Creek, or meet Yeshe or Zopa? I never met Yeshe, but Zopa is an amazing person. 

 

I lived in Boulder Creek (and the Santa Cruz area) and was fortunate to be involved at Land of Medicine Buddha and Vajrapani, and later (more intensely) Lama Tharchin and the Vajrayana Foundation. I have sat with Lama Zopa, Steve Pearl, et. al. many times, and Lama Zopa was the host for the Dalai Lama the couple of times I met him. Zopa (and Pearl and especially Tharchin) are the real deal. 

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling, you mentioned your doubt that any of the texts were authentically the words of Gautama the Shakyan.  That may be, but the words in the most of the first four Nikayas attributed to Gautama are unlike anything anywhere else in the literature of the world.  I would say the same is true for the words in the Gospel of Thomas. 

 

Mark, I happy to believe that the Nikayas sounds or reads different, or may even have the hallmarks of a text written with a depth of seeing into emptiness that no-one else has passed along. You see this a lot, actually. Seeing into emptiness doesn't always give one the ability to share it well. Having said that, I personally connect with some of the Mahayana sutras, Dzogchen, Cha'n masters, or Dogen more, but to each his own.

[ralis]

34 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Mark, I happy to believe that the Nikayas sounds or reads different, or may even have the hallmarks of a text written with a depth of seeing into emptiness that no-one else has passed along. You see this a lot, actually. Seeing into emptiness doesn't always give one the ability to share it well. Having said that, I personally connect with some of the Mahayana sutras, Dzogchen, Cha'n masters, or Dogen more, but to each his own.

My question is,; are there differences at the root of experience? Perhaps perceptional differences? Many seek out the higher vibe which is believed to be the ultimate. 
 

Many believe that Dzogchen is non energetic, but that wasn’t my experience. 
 

 

[ralis]

@Bindi

 

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One has to be open to receive’ is lovely and fluffy but not necessarily wise. 

This reminds me of what Irina Tweedie went through with her Sufi master. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Did you go out to Boulder Creek, or meet Yeshe or Zopa? I never met Yeshe, but Zopa is an amazing person. 

 

I lived in Boulder Creek (and the Santa Cruz area) and was fortunate to be involved at Land of Medicine Buddha and Vajrapani, and later (more intensely) Lama Tharchin and the Vajrayana Foundation. I have sat with Lama Zopa, Steve Pearl, et. al. many times, and Lama Zopa was the host for the Dalai Lama the couple of times I met him. Zopa (and Pearl and especially Tharchin) are the real deal. 

 

Nope, just found that clip at you tube...I have been to a few Zen meetings and studied some of their material.     

[manitou]

23 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I finished a few moments ago. His wife needed to get back in the house to take biscuits out of the oven. They didn't even offer me one, but gravy is an essential part of biscuits.

 

 

You're still selling Hoovers door to door?

[steve]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

Sequel to the previous essay:

 

 

In the domain of wisdom the Ariyan Dhamma and the non-dual systems… move in contrary directions. In the non-dual systems the task of wisdom is to break through the diversified appearances (or the appearance of diversity) in order to discover the unifying reality that underlies them.

Wisdom is not and has no task.

It is primordial and does not have to do anything. We, as samsaric beings. have work to do.

 

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Concrete phenomena, in their distinctions and their plurality, are mere appearance, while true reality is the One: either a substantial Absolute (the Atman, Brahman, the Godhead, etc.), or a metaphysical zero (Sunyata, the Void Nature of Mind, etc.).

Nope, dzogchen acknowledges the reality of Two Truths, both relative and absolute (dual and nondual). Neither is more true or more real than the other. Reality is not One - hence the term nonduality as opposed to Oneness. Reality is not a metaphysical zero, that is an error of understanding that leads to nihilism, it is dependently inter-related.

 

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For such systems, liberation comes with the arrival at the fundamental unity in which opposites merge and distinctions evaporate like dew.

Distinctions don’t disappear, they are simply seen in the context of a deeper level of interconnection and relationship.

 

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In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). 

No different in the Mahayana.

 

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Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all-embracing identification with the All, but toward disengagement and detachment, release from the All…

In dzogchen, wisdom moves in no particular direction. It arises spontaneously in us. Diversity and plurality are investigated and respected but at some point a deeper connection is uncovered which links us to all “separate” appearances. The article Stirling referenced by Thich Nhat Hanh expresses this beautifully. In Vietnam, I believe both Theravada and Mahayana traditions coexist in a collaborative and unified fashion. I believe their system to be unique in this regard.

 

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Spiritual systems are colored as much by their favorite similes as by their formulated tenets. For the non-dual systems, two similes stand out as predominant. One is space, which simultaneously encompasses all and permeates all yet is nothing concrete in itself; the other is the ocean, which remains self-identical beneath the changing multitude of its waves. The similes used within the Ariyan Dhamma are highly diverse, but one theme that unites many of them is acuity of vision — vision which discerns the panorama of visible forms clearly and precisely, each in its own individuality…

 

https://buddho.org/dhamma-and-non-duality/

 

 

This discerning wisdom is also present in dzogchen, “discriminating wisdom.”

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

You're still selling Hoovers door to door?

 

I thought Wal Mart and other retailers took over selling Hoovers?  Don't know about Kirby's though except they are probably marked up about 500% from wholesale and that their salesmen can keep a straight face when selling them!  (btw Kirby's are a pretty good heavy duty machine but are way to heavy up to Gen5, don't know about the newer generations and their weight)

[Apech]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Wisdom is not and has no task.

It is primordial and does not have to do anything. We, as samsaric beings. have work to do.

 

Nope, dzogchen acknowledges the reality of Two Truths, both relative and absolute (dual and nondual). Neither is more true or more real than the other. Reality is not One - hence the term nonduality as opposed to Oneness. Reality is not a metaphysical zero, that is an error of understanding that leads to nihilism, it is dependently inter-related.

 

Distinctions don’t disappear, they are simply seen in the context of a deeper level of interconnection and relationship.

 

No different in the Mahayana.

 

In dzogchen, wisdom moves in no particular direction. It arises spontaneously in us. Diversity and plurality are investigated and respected but at some point a deeper connection is uncovered which links us to all “separate” appearances. The article Stirling referenced by Thich Nhat Hanh expresses this beautifully. In Vietnam, I believe both Theravada and Mahayana traditions coexist in a collaborative and unified fashion. I believe their system to be unique in this regard.

 

This discerning wisdom is also present in dzogchen, “discriminating wisdom.”

 

@steve points at a monk

[steve]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

@steve points at a monk

 

Nobody’s safe ‘on the internet’

🤣

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Wisdom is not and has no task.

It is primordial and does not have to do anything. We, as samsaric beings. have work to do.

 

Wisdom is not primordial, it is a subtle level of perception, vijnanamaya kosha represents the higher mind, the faculty of wisdom, which lies underneath the processing, thinking, reactive mind. Needless to say what I am saying is correct, though you can believe whatever you like. 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Nope, dzogchen acknowledges the reality of Two Truths, both relative and absolute (dual and nondual). Neither is more true or more real than the other. Reality is not One - hence the term nonduality as opposed to Oneness. Reality is not a metaphysical zero, that is an error of understanding that leads to nihilism, it is dependently inter-related.

 

Distinctions don’t disappear, they are simply seen in the context of a deeper level of interconnection and relationship.

 

No different in the Mahayana.

 

In dzogchen, wisdom moves in no particular direction. It arises spontaneously in us. Diversity and plurality are investigated and respected but at some point a deeper connection is uncovered which links us to all “separate” appearances. The article Stirling referenced by Thich Nhat Hanh expresses this beautifully. In Vietnam, I believe both Theravada and Mahayana traditions coexist in a collaborative and unified fashion. I believe their system to be unique in this regard.

 

This discerning wisdom is also present in dzogchen, “discriminating wisdom.”

 

[steve]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

 

Needless to say what I am saying is correct, [steve adds in his head, - based on my reading and understanding at the current moment] though you can believe whatever you like. 

 

 

 

[natural]

I to am happy to get permission to believe whatever I like!

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Wisdom is not primordial, it is a subtle level of perception, vijnanamaya kosha represents the higher mind, the faculty of wisdom, which lies underneath the processing, thinking, reactive mind. Needless to say what I am saying is correct, though you can believe whatever you like. 

 

 

the Buddhist term for wisdom is not vijnana but prajna which has a different meaning ….hey stop pointing at me!

[ralis]

14 minutes ago, Apech said:

the Buddhist term for wisdom is not vijnana but prajna which has a different meaning ….hey stop pointing at me!

 

Why not translate in terms that anyone reading this can comprehend? Please no pointing. 🤣🤣🤣

[Bindi]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

the Buddhist term for wisdom is not vijnana but prajna which has a different meaning ….hey stop pointing at me!

I accept that, but I thought Steve was speaking more generically about ‘wisdom’, not as a specifically Buddhist concept, and it was the emphasis on discriminating in the earlier quote that made me think of vijnanamaya kosha. Of course I may be wrong. 

[steve]

54 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Wisdom is not primordial, it is a subtle level of perception, vijnanamaya kosha represents the higher mind, the faculty of wisdom, which lies underneath the processing, thinking, reactive mind

 

In Bön and Tibetan Buddhism, the word that we generally translate as wisdom is yeshé. "Ye" means 'primordial' or 'from the beginning.' "Shé" means 'to know' or 'consciousness.' The basis of our consciousness and all life experience is considered to be unborn and undying, primordial wisdom. Perhaps it means something different in the teachings you are studying. Even in Buddhism, the understanding of wisdom varies a bit depending on one's path and proclivity. I was referring to the Buddhist meaning of wisdom because you were quoting a Buddhist discussion, not a Hindu one. 

 

PS - I'm not pointing, both hands are in my pockets

[natural]

The old pocket pinball?

A traditional way to pass the time.

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I accept that, but I thought Steve was speaking more generically about ‘wisdom’, not as a specifically Buddhist concept, and it was the emphasis on discriminating in the earlier quote that made me think of vijnanamaya kosha. Of course I may be wrong. 

the wisdom which arises from Buddha hood is prajna - all words with the root jna in them indicate knowing/gnosis in fact they are all connected as words.  The pra part can mean ‘movement towards’ and by extension ‘beyond’ since you have to be  beyond to move towards.  So you could translate prajna as ‘beyond knowing’ - and is ‘explained’ in the Mahayana prajna paramita ‘perfection of wisdom sutra’ .  So arising from the buddhamind is an awareness beyond knowing and as a motivation a compassion which is beyond duality (I.e. not sentimental compassion) and expression of inseparability of all sentient beings.

 

PS I was your mother once and also you were mine.