Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

 gravy is an essential part of biscuits.

 

We haven't always agreed with each other lately, ralis, but I feel myself coming round to your point of view.

[ralis]

43 minutes ago, steve said:

I had a root canal this morning, the good news is I thought I needed two but only needed one. Now hanging out with my little buddy Lolli and enjoying a smoothie. I thought of all of you and this conversation as I sat in the chair watching and listening and feeling the experience. I particularly thought of @silent thunder and his wisdom. It was effortless and fine. 

 

Whether any of us know something or experienced something else, whether I agree or disagree, follow similar or contradictory paths… I feel blessed to have a connection to all of you. Sometimes it surprises me how much you all can get into my head and heart. None of us is better or worse than another, no perspective better. Views, answers, practices, systems can only ever be said to be better or worse for me personally. I can’t  judge for another, though my thoughts may think differently at times. We each bring something unique and special to the table. I certainly don’t feel in any way better than anyone else (except maybe Luke, just a little…), just close and vulnerable, especially when talking about things so close to my heart like my spiritual life.

 

I recently completed a multi-year program that combines meditation practices with small and large group sessions. The meditation really opens people up and the depth of sharing and connection that developed was profound. I learned something really valuable - how easy it is to think I understand other people, and how inaccurate I can be and, most important, how much I can learn from the most unexpected sources. All people have immense value and potential and so much can be gained by putting aside presumptions and expectations and really being open. All stuff I “knew” before but this was more of an experiential realization and made an impact. I feel like we have a little of that potential here though naturally we need to be a bit more guarded in an anonymous, public forum.

 

Anyway, not sure where I was going with all this but cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

My partner Patricia said your dog is cute. She is an artist and must see an aesthetic quality that I have yet to see.

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

We haven't always agreed with each other lately, ralis, but I feel myself coming round to your point of view.

 

What's biscuits without gravy, grits, eggs and bacon, maybe a few hash browns on the side. 

 

My grandmother was from South Carolina and the meals she made were amazing!

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

BTW, I don't eat the way I described above, but maybe upon an occasion.

[ralis]

3 hours ago, steve said:

I had a root canal this morning, the good news is I thought I needed two but only needed one. Now hanging out with my little buddy Lolli and enjoying a smoothie. I thought of all of you and this conversation as I sat in the chair watching and listening and feeling the experience. I particularly thought of @silent thunder and his wisdom. It was effortless and fine. 

 

Whether any of us know something or experienced something else, whether I agree or disagree, follow similar or contradictory paths… I feel blessed to have a connection to all of you. Sometimes it surprises me how much you all can get into my head and heart. None of us is better or worse than another, no perspective better. Views, answers, practices, systems can only ever be said to be better or worse for me personally. I can’t  judge for another, though my thoughts may think differently at times. We each bring something unique and special to the table. I certainly don’t feel in any way better than anyone else (except maybe Luke, just a little…), just close and vulnerable, especially when talking about things so close to my heart like my spiritual life.

 

I recently completed a multi-year program that combines meditation practices with small and large group sessions. The meditation really opens people up and the depth of sharing and connection that developed was profound. I learned something really valuable - how easy it is to think I understand other people, and how inaccurate I can be and, most important, how much I can learn from the most unexpected sources. All people have immense value and potential and so much can be gained by putting aside presumptions and expectations and really being open. All stuff I “knew” before but this was more of an experiential realization and made an impact. I feel like we have a little of that potential here though naturally we need to be a bit more guarded in an anonymous, public forum.

 

Anyway, not sure where I was going with all this but cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

Non-dual smoothie? 🤣

[steve]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

Non-dual smoothie? 🤣

 

Everything blended into a velvety luminous blob, delicious!

[dawn90]

I think the light body develops as you develop your hands and feet.

 

And then your elbows; joints.

And the diferent chakras around the arms and legs that you can find.

 

Like putting on a coat.

 

That's what I'm sensing.

[old3bob]

It's not all dead serious....

Lama Yeshe's power to touch our hearts transcends time and space. This 36 year old film is from the final session of extensive teachings on the six yogas of the glorious Naropa given to the fortunate students in 1983 in Boulder Creek, California. BIG LOVE Follow Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive Facebook: 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by old3bob

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Everything blended into a velvety luminous blob, delicious!

 

I made one after lunch for the road. Coconut milk, frozen blueberries, almond butter, banana, 1 scoop casein powder and a little honey. Non-dual cosmic. Totally undifferentiated. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[Mark Foote]

I would agree, that I greatly appreciate the chance to have sincere conversation along these lines.  I would have written "a sincere conversation", but you know, we have many going on!  The more the merrier.

 

I think I can say why we have amoral nondualists.  I mentioned earlier that after years of trying to always act from the place where I found myself, realizing that even things beyond the boundaries of the senses enter into that place and that the movement of breath is somehow involved, I finally determined that whatever I believed in from the heart translated into action.  

That means that if I believe from the heart that I should do something immoral, my best efforts to do otherwise are likely to fail.  

In hypnosis, it's widely acknowledged that it's not possible to get a subject to do something contrary to their morality, unless the suggestion includes a rationalization of the action that overcomes the subject's moral aversion.  

 

I can't say about nondual/dual, realized/unenlightened.  Some people have remarkable presence, and are prescient in their words and actions.  I still think that what they have really mastered is a rhythm of mindfulness keyed around the cessation of action in the body, and like a musician who has mastered the scales and the art of improvisation, they can captivate their audience.  

 

That an experience of the cessation of action of the body does not constitute the experience associated with Gautama's enlightenment seems to escape general notice, in light of the presence and the precience of those who have mastered a rhythm based on cessation of the body.  

 

Stirling, you mentioned your doubt that any of the texts were authentically the words of Gautama the Shakyan.  That may be, but the words in the most of the first four Nikayas attributed to Gautama are unlike anything anywhere else in the literature of the world.  I would say the same is true for the words in the Gospel of Thomas.  

Pass the pie, pass the coffee...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Non-dual cosmic. Totally undifferentiated. 

 

You know your a dualist when you like chunky.

[ralis]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You know your a dualist when you like chunky.

Dualists are already in the non-dual soup, but don’t know it. Were we all smashed together before the Big Bang singularity expanded. Perhaps that is why some of us don’t get along? 🤣🤣🤣

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away. When suffering is recognized it is understood to belong to the WHOLE field of experiencing, so there is great compassion. While reaction to suffering might be signing a petition, helping someone up from the ground who has fallen, or a donation to a charity, it is just as likely to be resting in awareness while in action, and just being present WITH the being who is suffering, rather than trying to bring their needs, projected ideas of "helping", or opinions to the moment. 

 

The awakened "beings" I know are the kindest I know, by far, though they may have different ideas of how to react to suffering than you do. 

 

Does this look like someone who doesn't care or recognize suffering?

 

The Dalai Lama doesn’t claim to be either enlightened or awakened, he considers himself to be a simple monk who’s done some practice, had some realisation, and made some progress. This isn’t a picture of a nondualist with emotions, this is a picture of your assumptions regarding the Dalai Lama. 

[Bindi]

12 minutes ago, ralis said:

Dualists are already in the non-dual soup, but don’t know it. Were we all smashed together before the Big Bang singularity expanded. Perhaps that is why some of us don’t get along? 🤣🤣🤣

It’s like we all wear underwear, but nondualists like to wear their underwear on the outside??? 

 

[ralis]

36 minutes ago, Bindi said:

It’s like we all wear underwear, but nondualists like to wear their underwear on the outside??? 

 

‘What if one doesn’t wear underwear?

[old3bob]

You mean like many Scotts with kilts?  (that way hardly no pause during battles?)

[Michael Sternbach]

Isn't wearing underwear terribly dualistic? 🤔

[Bindi]

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Isn't wearing underwear terribly dualistic? 🤔

Then clothes must be. Why is a pair of pants called a pair? Definitely dualistic! 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The Dalai Lama doesn’t claim to be either enlightened or awakened, he considers himself to be a simple monk who’s done some practice, had some realisation, and made some progress. This isn’t a picture of a nondualist with emotions, this is a picture of your assumptions regarding the Dalai Lama. 

 

No question in my mind that he has a deep, abiding connection to the base from which his activity flows.

His tears are genuine - I've seen my own teacher's spontaneous outflow of powerful emotion in retreat. 

Sexual abuse and misconduct in monasteries notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's accomplishments on behalf of Buddhism and the Tibetan people have been phenomenal under the most adverse of possible conditions. 

He is a product of Tibetan culture which emphasizes modesty. 

Of course this is also my projection but informed by reading several of his books, including two on dzogchen, and receiving teachings from him. My wife and children have no interest in Buddhism but received a genuine transmission of love and compassion from him attending one public teaching so powerful they were visibly shaken. 

But just like anything one has to be open to receive.

 

 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

No question in my mind that he has a deep, abiding connection to the base from which his activity flows.

His tears are genuine - I've seen my own teacher's spontaneous outflow of powerful emotion in retreat. 
 

 

I’m not saying his tears aren’t genuine, but you don’t need ‘nondual awakening’ to cry. 

 

Quote

 

Sexual abuse and misconduct in monasteries notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's accomplishments on behalf of Buddhism and the Tibetan people have been phenomenal under the most adverse of possible conditions. 

He is a product of Tibetan culture which emphasizes modesty. 
 

 

That or he’s actually just able to be honest with himself and others and knows he hasn’t ‘arrived’ yet. 

 

Quote

 

Of course this is also my projection but informed by reading several of his books, including two on dzogchen, and receiving teachings from him. My wife and children have no interest in Buddhism but received a genuine transmission of love and compassion from him attending one public teaching so powerful they were visibly shaken. 
 

 

Does love and compassion require being ‘nondually awake’? Is love and compassion always evident in the nondually awakened? Can you be nondually awake and sexually abusive, or condone sexual abuse? I thought morality and nondual status were not intrinsically connected? 

 

Quote

 

But just like anything one has to be open to receive.

 

 

Openness to receiving is not an achievement in itself, discretion is also important, people are open to cult leaders, to negative energy input, to evil leaders. ‘One has to be open to receive’ is lovely and fluffy but not necessarily wise. 
 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Bindi

[steve]

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I’m not saying his tears aren’t genuine, but you don’t need ‘nondual awakening’ to cry. 

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

No nondual significance to tears, I was simply taken back to an experience with my teacher, a very piercing transmission.

I was responding to both of your points, didn't mean to link it all together.

 

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

 

That or he’s actually just able to be honest with himself and others and knows he hasn’t ‘arrived’ yet. 

Very true, he also knows quite well that there is nowhere else to be but right here and right now.

 

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Does love and compassion require being ‘nondually awake’? Is love and compassion always evident in the nondually awakened? Can you be nondually awake and sexually abusive, or condone sexual abuse? I thought morality and nondual status were not intrinsically connected? 

Good questions to ponder. 

Most likely my answers, if I have any, would be unsatisfying or just lead to more questions. 

One thing about "understanding" nonnduality for me is that pondering can only take me farther away.

There is no understanding it for me, only being with whatever is in my experience in this very moment as fully and openly as possible. 

That's really it. 

 

41 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Openness to receiving is not an achievement in itself, discretion is also important, people are open to cult leaders, to negative energy input, to evil leaders. ‘One has to be open to receive’ is lovely and fluffy but not necessarily wise. 
 

 

Very true

The converse is that if we're not open we can't grow, we can't connect.

Very important to find the right balance for each of us.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I thought morality and nondual status were not intrinsically connected? 

 

[Bindi]

BHIKKHU BODHI

Dhamma and Non-duality

 

One of the most challenging issues facing Theravada Buddhism in recent years has been the encounter between classical Theravada vipassana meditation and the “non-dualistic” contemplative traditions best represented by Advaita Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism. Responses to this encounter have spanned the extremes, ranging from vehement confrontation all the way to attempts at synthesis and hybridization…
 

The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety, nor, I would add, can a non-dualistic perspective be found lying implicit within the Buddha’s discourses…

 

When we investigate our experience exactly as it presents itself, we find that it is permeated by a number of critically important dualities with profound implications for the spiritual quest. The Buddha’s teaching, as recorded in the Pali Suttas, fixes our attention unflinchingly upon these dualities and treats their acknowledgment as the indispensable basis for any honest search for liberating wisdom. It is precisely these antitheses — of good and evil, suffering and happiness, wisdom and ignorance — that make the quest for enlightenment and deliverance such a vitally crucial concern…

 

Thus the Theravada makes the antithesis of samsara and Nibbana the starting point of the entire quest for deliverance. Even more, it treats this antithesis as determinative of the final goal, which is precisely the transcendence of samsara and the attainment of liberation in Nibbana. Where Theravada differs significantly from the Mahayana schools, which also start with the duality of samsara and Nirvana, is in its refusal to regard this polarity as a mere preparatory lesson tailored for those with blunt faculties, to be eventually superseded by some higher realization of non-duality. From the standpoint of the Pali Suttas, even for the Buddha and the arahants suffering and its cessation, samsara and Nibbana, remain distinct.

Spiritual seekers still exploring the different contemplative traditions commonly assume that the highest spiritual teaching must be one which posits a metaphysical unity as the philosophical foundation and final goal of the quest for enlightenment. Taking this assumption to be axiomatic, they may then conclude that the Pali Buddhist teaching, with its insistence on the sober assessment of dualities, is deficient or provisional, requiring fulfillment by a nondualistic realization. For those of such a bent, the dissolution of dualities in a final unity will always appear more profound and complete…

 

https://buddho.org/dhamma-and-non-duality/

Edited May 20, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

Sequel to the previous essay:

 

 

In the domain of wisdom the Ariyan Dhamma and the non-dual systems… move in contrary directions. In the non-dual systems the task of wisdom is to break through the diversified appearances (or the appearance of diversity) in order to discover the unifying reality that underlies them. Concrete phenomena, in their distinctions and their plurality, are mere appearance, while true reality is the One: either a substantial Absolute (the Atman, Brahman, the Godhead, etc.), or a metaphysical zero (Sunyata, the Void Nature of Mind, etc.). For such systems, liberation comes with the arrival at the fundamental unity in which opposites merge and distinctions evaporate like dew.

In the Ariyan Dhamma wisdom aims at seeing and knowing things as they really are (yathabhutananadassana). Hence, to know things as they are, wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity. Wisdom leaves diversity and plurality untouched. It instead seeks to uncover the characteristics of phenomena, to gain insight into their qualities and structures. It moves, not in the direction of an all-embracing identification with the All, but toward disengagement and detachment, release from the All…

 

Spiritual systems are colored as much by their favorite similes as by their formulated tenets. For the non-dual systems, two similes stand out as predominant. One is space, which simultaneously encompasses all and permeates all yet is nothing concrete in itself; the other is the ocean, which remains self-identical beneath the changing multitude of its waves. The similes used within the Ariyan Dhamma are highly diverse, but one theme that unites many of them is acuity of vision — vision which discerns the panorama of visible forms clearly and precisely, each in its own individuality…

 

https://buddho.org/dhamma-and-non-duality/

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Bindi