Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, ralis said:

 

 

 

Are you referring to Sri Aurobindo's light body? He radiated the golden body of light. I viewed it back in the early nineties and yes he passed on in 1950, but suffice it to say, I saw it somewhere in time.

No, the only light bodies I’ve come across were the jeffians, they also thought they were beyond the highest in terms of achievement, my experience with them was that they had developed their astral bodies and mistook that for something ultimate. This is why I asked dwai what the use of developing a light body was, I meant an astral light body. 
 

Golden colour would relate to something I am interested in. 
 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I read some of Aurobindo’s ideas about spiritual evolution which I’ve enjoyed, I’ve never come across Mirra Alfassa though. 

 

Mirra aka "The Mother" worked with Aurobindo beginning in the early 1900's, although worked with may not quite describe it. Her writing's are well worth reading. I will post some links later when I have time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirra_Alfassa

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Mirra+alfassa&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[ralis]

@Bindi

 

Aurobindo and the Mother's background was with Max Theon and his wife Alma Theon. The Cosmic Tradition, a Kabbalist group in Europe. A lot of that is covered in Satprem's book "Mother or The Divine Materialism" the first of three volumes. The Mother's Agenda is around 13 volumes is well worth studying. She was an exceptional person!

 

There is only one place/spot in the human energy field that she focused on. That place was verified by Namkhai Norbu, Reshad Feild, et al. Human energy field as measured by Dr. Valerie Hunt describes the body as a complex dynamic energy field.

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

15 hours ago, ralis said:

To all the non-dualists; even if you know the answers, there is rarely follow through for suffering humanity. It is a passive do nothing trance. Note it, be aware of it and god forbid, I'm not getting my hands dirty. Oh I might get a karmic disease.

 

The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away. When suffering is recognized it is understood to belong to the WHOLE field of experiencing, so there is great compassion. While reaction to suffering might be signing a petition, helping someone up from the ground who has fallen, or a donation to a charity, it is just as likely to be resting in awareness while in action, and just being present WITH the being who is suffering, rather than trying to bring their needs, projected ideas of "helping", or opinions to the moment. 

 

The awakened "beings" I know are the kindest I know, by far, though they may have different ideas of how to react to suffering than you do. 

 

Does this look like someone who doesn't care or recognize suffering?

 

[ralis]

17 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away. When suffering is recognized it is understood to belong to the WHOLE field of experiencing, so there is great compassion. While reaction to suffering might be signing a petition, helping someone up from the ground who has fallen, or a donation to a charity, it is just as likely to be resting in awareness while in action, and just being present WITH the being who is suffering, rather than trying to bring their needs, projected ideas of "helping", or opinions to the moment. 

 

The awakened "beings" I know are the kindest I know, by far, though they may have different ideas of how to react to suffering than you do. 

 

Does this look like someone who doesn't care or recognize suffering?

 

 

 

I am highly critical of religious posturing that puts itself above others. Further, has the Dalia Lama said anything regarding the sexual abuse by Tibetan Lamas on young boys in monastic settings or against women who are victims of the Lama Dharma Kings. Sexual abuse in this regard has been well documented! They may have different ideas, but are not above it all!

 

Actually he did come out and make a statement in an interview where he admitted he knew about it for decades. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

28 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away. When suffering is recognized it is understood to belong to the WHOLE field of experiencing, so there is great compassion. While reaction to suffering might be signing a petition, helping someone up from the ground who has fallen, or a donation to a charity, it is just as likely to be resting in awareness while in action, and just being present WITH the being who is suffering, rather than trying to bring their needs, projected ideas of "helping", or opinions to the moment. 

 

The awakened "beings" I know are the kindest I know, by far, though they may have different ideas of how to react to suffering than you do. 

 

Does this look like someone who doesn't care or recognize suffering?

 

 

If ones identity is "wiped away" as you stated, then anything is possible without limit. The idea that some sort of basic human goodness (Trungpa) exists below that veneer, is somehow pure without fault, is delusory.

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

You should be critical. No problem there. I haven't met any realized beings that posture or put themselves above others. As for the Dalai Lama, a tiny bit of googling finds this:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45521075

 

I am not an apologist for the Dalai Lama - but my limited experience is that he is truly compassionate in a way that few would truly understand.

[ralis]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

You should be critical. No problem there. I haven't met any realized beings that posture or put themselves above others. As for the Dalai Lama, a tiny bit of googling finds this:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45521075

 

I am not an apologist for the Dalai Lama - but my limited experience is that he is truly compassionate in a way that few would truly understand.

 

 

In my years living here in Santa Fe I have met most of the lamas traveling through here and have received teachings from many. The Dalai Lama was here way back in the early 90's and I attended his teachings also.

 

How do you know they are realized?

 

I bring up these issues as a way of pointing out that non-duel etc. is not what one may think in ones imagination. I have read most of the available literature and understand the problems with human relationships when it comes to all things spiritual. 

 

If he was compassionate as you say, then why was he aware of sexual abuses for decades and did nothing. A little fear perhaps?

Edited May 19, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, ralis said:

If ones identity is "wiped away" as you stated, then anything is possible without limit.

 

Nobody's identity is wiped away. The mistaken belief in the illusion of "self" is dissolved. This doesn't mean "anything is possible without limit" it means that whatever is happening now is the only reality, and that what happens next has never been up to us or the illusion of our agency. We aren't in control. What is happening now is the result of the conditions in this moment.  

 

Quote

The idea that some sort of basic human goodness (Trungpa) exists below that veneer, is somehow pure without fault, is delusory.

 

Yes! BUT, imagine recognizing that everything you perceived was of the same fabric that you are... not as a belief, but as an understood reality. What if you could see, moment to moment, that you weren't separate from it? How would you feel about it all? What if you saw that parts of it suffered because they didn't realize that they had always been home? 

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Nobody's identity is wiped away. The mistaken belief in the illusion of "self" is dissolved. This doesn't mean "anything is possible without limit" it means that whatever is happening now is the only reality, and that what happens next has never been up to us or the illusion of our agency. We aren't in control. What is happening now is the result of the conditions in this moment.  

 

 

Yes! BUT, imagine recognizing that everything you perceived was of the same fabric that you are... not as a belief, but as an understood reality. What if you could see, moment to moment, that you weren't separate from it? How would you feel about it all? What if you saw that parts of it suffered because they didn't realize that they had always been home? 

 

"The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away." That is personal identity as I stated. Do you have any experience with realization as you stated?

 

I'm not separate in any way since I had that realization years ago. Given that experience I don't make a grandiose big deal out of it and rarely state it happened. 

 

 

[dawn90]

28 minutes ago, stirling said:

I am not an apologist for the Dalai Lama - but my limited experience is that he is truly compassionate in a way that few would truly understand.

 

It's still nothing compared to michael jackson's.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by dawn90

[stirling]

22 minutes ago, ralis said:

In my years living here in Santa Fe I have met most of the lamas traveling through here and have received teachings from many. The Dalai Lama was here way back in the early 90's and I attended his teachings also.

 

I have also, and received a couple of empowerments from him (in groups).

 

Quote

How do you know they are realized?

 

I would say that I have met a handful of "beings" that I could confidently say are realized (yes, I am aware this is an oxymoron). In all cases those "beings" can speak about what it means to have no-self from an experiential basis, not just by citing the works of others. Their understanding is a "lived" experience, and is instantly recognizable. 

 

Quote

I bring up these issues as a way of pointing out that non-duel etc. is not what one may think in ones imagination. I have read most of the available literature and understand the problems with human relationships when it comes to all things spiritual. 

 

I completely agree - absolutely nothing like one imagines. 

 

Quote

If he was compassionate as you say, then why was he aware of sexual abuses for decades and did nothing. A little fear perhaps?

 

He recognizes suffering. I have seen him talk about the suffering of people and become overwhelmed. It was believable to me.

Edited May 19, 2022 by stirling

[liminal_luke]

It's pretty clear by now, if there was any doubt, that it's difficult to talk productively about nondualism online. Many of us have spent time in competitive, accomplishment-obsessed environments, an experience that makes us sensitive to perceived slights.  I know this is true in my case, anyway.  When people mention their awakening and opine authoritively about it's sublime nature, it's easy for the unawakened to feel inferior.  I think this is a mistake.

 

Though I hesitate to posit spiritual hierarchies, I think steve and dwai are "father down the path" than I.  At the same time, I'm sure that they don't feel "better" than me, nor do I feel "less" than them.  If we got together in person there would be none of that.  I think we would be warmly appreciative of each others good qualities, and, given enough time together, gently honest about each other's less wonderful qualites.  If all us Bums were in the same city I would make a flyer: Dualists and Nondualists Together, A Potluck.  If you have a self bring a main course to share.  Don't have a self?  Bring a dessert.  Bindi, Apech, ralis, stirling, natural, dawn90, Mark Foote, silent thunder...we'd all have a jolly good time. Unfortunately, in online discussions it's easy to miss the conviviality.  

 

 

 

[stirling]

24 minutes ago, ralis said:

Do you have any experience with realization as you stated?

 

Everything I post is my lived experience.

[natural]

14 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Everything I post is my lived experience.

 

Same here as well!

With the exception some of what I report actually happened, some maybe not.

Just so happens sometimes my imagination runs away!

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, natural said:

 

Same here as well!

With the exception some of what I report actually happened, some maybe not.

Just so happens sometimes my imagination runs away!

Sitting in my truck posting here when I should be taking care of a client. 🤣🤣🤣

[manitou]

We are ceremonial straw dogs.  Isness is where it's at.  Love is an action to be practiced at all times.  Is the client still there?

[natural]

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice!

[Apech]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

It's pretty clear by now, if there was any doubt, that it's difficult to talk productively about nondualism online. Many of us have spent time in competitive, accomplishment-obsessed environments, an experience that makes us sensitive to perceived slights.  I know this is true in my case, anyway.  When people mention their awakening and opine authoritively about it's sublime nature, it's easy for the unawakened to feel inferior.  I think this is a mistake.

 

Though I hesitate to posit spiritual hierarchies, I think steve and dwai are "father down the path" than I.  At the same time, I'm sure that they don't feel "better" than me, nor do I feel "less" than them.  If we got together in person there would be none of that.  I think we would be warmly appreciative of each others good qualities, and, given enough time together, gently honest about each other's less wonderful qualites.  If all us Bums were in the same city I would make a flyer: Dualists and Nondualists Together, A Potluck.  If you have a self bring a main course to share.  Don't have a self?  Bring a dessert.  Bindi, Apech, ralis, stirling, natural, dawn90, Mark Foote, silent thunder...we'd all have a jolly good time. Unfortunately, in online discussions it's easy to miss the conviviality.  

 

 

 

 

I seem to have mislaid my self ever since @steve pointed at me, so here's my dessert, Baba de Camelo

 

[steve]

I had a root canal this morning, the good news is I thought I needed two but only needed one. Now hanging out with my little buddy Lolli and enjoying a smoothie. I thought of all of you and this conversation as I sat in the chair watching and listening and feeling the experience. I particularly thought of @silent thunder and his wisdom. It was effortless and fine. 

 

Whether any of us know something or experienced something else, whether I agree or disagree, follow similar or contradictory paths… I feel blessed to have a connection to all of you. Sometimes it surprises me how much you all can get into my head and heart. None of us is better or worse than another, no perspective better. Views, answers, practices, systems can only ever be said to be better or worse for me personally. I can’t  judge for another, though my thoughts may think differently at times. We each bring something unique and special to the table. I certainly don’t feel in any way better than anyone else (except maybe Luke, just a little…), just close and vulnerable, especially when talking about things so close to my heart like my spiritual life.

 

I recently completed a multi-year program that combines meditation practices with small and large group sessions. The meditation really opens people up and the depth of sharing and connection that developed was profound. I learned something really valuable - how easy it is to think I understand other people, and how inaccurate I can be and, most important, how much I can learn from the most unexpected sources. All people have immense value and potential and so much can be gained by putting aside presumptions and expectations and really being open. All stuff I “knew” before but this was more of an experiential realization and made an impact. I feel like we have a little of that potential here though naturally we need to be a bit more guarded in an anonymous, public forum.

 

Anyway, not sure where I was going with all this but cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

21 minutes ago, steve said:

I had a root canal this morning, the good news is I thought I needed two but only needed one. Now hanging out with my little buddy Lolli and enjoying a smoothie. I thought of all of you and this conversation as I sat in the chair watching and listening and feeling the experience. I particularly thought of @silent thunder and his wisdom. It was effortless and fine. 

.....

 

So basically what you are saying is that reading @silent thunder is like having root canal treatment.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Apech

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Why does anyone really care? After all, Tom Robbins in his novel "Another Roadside Attraction" describes the human species as a traveling flea circus. 

 

 

an apt comparison

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

So basically what you are saying that reading @silent thunder is like having root canal treatment.

 

 

 

 

Reading silent thunder is exactly like a root canal except, oddly, there's no pain.

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

…These things, when they pour down or come in, present themselves with a great force, a vivid sense of inspiration or illumination, much sensation of light and joy, an impression of widening and power. The sadhak feels himself freed from the normal limits, projected into a wonderful new world of experience, filled and enlarged and exalted;what comes associates itself, besides, with his aspirations, ambitions, notions of spiritual fulfillment and yogic siddhi; it is represented even as itself that realisation and fulfillment. Very easily he is carried away by the splendour and the rush, and thinks that he has realised more than he has truly done, something final or at least something sovereignly true. At this stage the necessary knowledge and experience are usually lacking which would tell him that this is only a very uncertain and mixed beginning; he may not realise at once that he is still in the cosmic Ignorance, not in the cosmic Truth, much less in the Transcendental Truth, and that whatever formative or dynamic idea-truths may have come down into him are partial only and yet further diminished by their presentation to him by a still mixed consciousness. He may fail to realise also that if he rushes to apply what he is realising or receiving as if it were something definitive, he may either fall into confusion and error or else get shut up in some partial formation in which there may be an element of spiritual Truth but it is likely to be outweighted by more dubious mental and vital accretions that deform it altogether.

                ~ Sri Aurobindo (1932)

 

 

Nothing to add to that, waiting some years to get the gist from the current situation is the way I try to go.

[ralis]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

We are ceremonial straw dogs.  Isness is where it's at.  Love is an action to be practiced at all times.  Is the client still there?

 

I finished a few moments ago. His wife needed to get back in the house to take biscuits out of the oven. They didn't even offer me one, but gravy is an essential part of biscuits.