What exactly is stored in the LDT?

[liminal_luke]

The idea of abstaining from sex in order to "retain jing" has wide appeal among a certain subset of beginning male cultivators.  (Don't ask me how I know.)  At times the motivation can get a bit twisted: many guys become celibate in order to have sex.  The thinking goes that if I abstain people will become more attracted to me -- and voila!  I believe that celibacy can have many benefits for the right person at the right time, but snagging a life partner (or a night partner) isn't one of them.

[Cleansox]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

The thinking goes that if I abstain people will become more attracted to me -- and voila! 

Yes, a longer period of abstaining usually means "voila" 😁. 

[Cleansox]

6 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Google translate: 

/... ... /

If you use standing posture, the effect will of course be better than just sitting still, but if you also practice movement, the effect will be better than standing, but if you also practice movement outdoors, the effect will be better than indoor movement, but If you not only practice kung fu outdoors, but your kung fu is spontaneous, the effect will be even better.

Zifa gong? 

Isn't that supposed to last just for a period? 

[anshino23]

31 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Zifa gong? 

Isn't that supposed to last just for a period? 

 

You're probably going to have to use Google translate for your response and then quote Awaken rather than me to reply to that  

[Cleansox]

She usually reads the thread. 

[almaxy]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The idea of abstaining from sex in order to "retain jing" has wide appeal among a certain subset of beginning male cultivators.  (Don't ask me how I know.)  At times the motivation can get a bit twisted: many guys become celibate in order to have sex.  The thinking goes that if I abstain people will become more attracted to me -- and voila!  I believe that celibacy can have many benefits for the right person at the right time, but snagging a life partner (or a night partner) isn't one of them.

@liminal_luke yea exactly, don't know if we are talking about the same thing, but I got this idea from the nofap community which guys just retain semen expecting girls to jump on them lol

 

So, it is beneficial to have stillness and movement in a system of training, otherwise the practitioner would create imbalances, so I tought about Zhan Zhuang and Tai Chi, which I think would be a great combination, any thoughts on this??

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, almaxy said:

 

So, it is beneficial to have stillness and movement in a system of training, otherwise the practitioner would create imbalances, so I tought about Zhan Zhuang and Tai Chi, which I think would be a great combination, any thoughts on this??

 

I'm not the most expert on putting together a practice program, but I like your idea of including both stillness and movement.  One of my teachers used to talk about something he called "yin practice."  After doing something, maybe a movement form, he would sit in stillness for awhile without any particular intention, just allowing himself to feel the effects of whatever he'd been doing.  This idea of yin practice has stayed with me and I find it valuable, a sort of integrative rest.

[almaxy]

Nice, that's thr king of info I was looking for  

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 hours ago, almaxy said:

@liminal_luke yea exactly, don't know if we are talking about the same thing, but I got this idea from the nofap community which guys just retain semen expecting girls to jump on them lol

 

So, it is beneficial to have stillness and movement in a system of training, otherwise the practitioner would create imbalances, so I tought about Zhan Zhuang and Tai Chi, which I think would be a great combination, any thoughts on this??

The best thing you can do is find a teacher 

[awaken]

17 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Zifa gong? 

Isn't that supposed to last just for a period? 

 

你為什麼會認為自發功只持續一段時間？

你該不會是認為自發功就只有動作而已吧？

[awaken]

15 hours ago, Cleansox said:

She usually reads the thread. 

 

是的，我看得懂英文，但是寫不出像樣的英文

[awaken]

看各位的討論，依舊還是沒搞懂什麼是精，我只好繼續講了，要知道什麼是精，要先搞懂能量中心，能量中心分成上中下三個丹田，當能量中心從下練到中，練到上丹田的時候，這個時候，能量中心正在打通上丹田，而下丹田和中丹田都已經打通了，這時候，下丹田的能量，會流動到中丹田，會產生一個特殊的現象，就是男人和女人的精液和經血只會剩下組織液，這就是所謂的降白虎斬赤龍的現象。

 

而性行為，則會將能量往下扯，造成中丹田的能量不足，因此造成中丹田的賭塞，中丹田只要堵塞了，就會造成降白虎和斬赤龍現象的消失，所以各位要知道，降白虎斬赤龍這種精完全化為氣的現象，主因就是中丹田完全打通造成的。

 

並不是真的把精拿來練成氣，並不是用男人的精液去練成氣，完全不是這麼一回事。

 

但是如果你因為我說的這段話，就開始縱慾於性行為，那就會產生大量的下拉能量，會將中丹田塞住，這樣同樣會造成精化氣的現象消失。

 

所以再重新講一次，不是男人的精液拿來練成氣，而是中丹田打通了，造成精液的消失。換言之，精液的消失，是因為中丹田打通了，不是因為下丹田的精液被練成氣了。

 

 

 

結論，並沒有任何東西被儲存在下丹田，也沒有任何東西被儲存在中丹田，包含氣，都沒有被儲存，相反的，而是陰被化解掉了，也就是為道日損，損之又損。

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by awaken

[Nintendao]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:21 PM, Cleansox said:

Zifa gong? 

Isn't that supposed to last just for a period? 

 

In some systems it only occurs during a specific stage of development, while the nervous system is acclimating to mobilization of the lower dan tien.

According to Damo Mitchell,

Quote

 

    These movements are a sign that the physical and energetic bodies are coming together and that the efficiency of the meridian system is improving. Blockages are removed from the body by the movements and the health and vitality of the practitioner improves dramatically over a short period of time.

 

    It is important to remember during the practice of spontaneous energetic movement that it is not a desired result in itself. It is simply a part of the process which should be moved through in due course. Do not revel in the movements as this will cause your mind to attach to them. At the same time, do not fight against them as this will prevent them from carrying out their work. As a guideline the movements generally seem to last somewhere between three months and a couple of years. They tend to be stronger in younger students who are closer to their teen years. This is largely due to the large degree of emotional upheaval which comes with being a teenager.

 

p.164, Daoist Nei Gong: The Philosophical Art of Change

 

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

In some systems it only occurs during a specific stage of development, while the nervous system is acclimating to mobilization of the lower dan tien.

There are many schools that get sidetracked with Zifa gong.

 

Zifa gong occurs when Yang Qi starts moving at the ‘depth’ of the nervous system… meaning the actual nerves through the body.

 

The Zifa gong stops when: 

 

1 - major blockages at the depth of the nervous system have been worked out.

 

2 - when the density of your qi has been sufficiently developed and the qi moves deeper of its own accord. (Into the channel system)

 

Zifa gong won’t stop if you have an emotional connection with the effects of it… it’s exhilarating to have qi flow through the nervous system - and this can become addictive.

 

So even if qi wants to move deeper, you can certainly force it back outward to have the same exhilarating Zifa gong effect.

 

It can be quite draining. That’s fine when it’s clearing out blockages - it’s a powerful way of clearing stagnation, bringing ‘life’ into frozen aspects of your body and energy system…

 

But if you perpetuate this process after it’s done it’s thing - then effectively you’re using your qi for entertainment and self stimulation.
 

Kidneys will suffer.

[freeform]

On 02/03/2022 at 5:02 PM, Trunk said:

1. What are the typical dis-harmonies of the LDT?  (So that we can recognize them, and then have a better chance to go in the direction of better health, not worse).

To be honest @Trunk - your experience of deep stagnation is quite rare… and generally the result of incorrect practice. 
 

For most people, stagnation resolves quickly in that space once qi flows. 
 

Using forceful methods (forceful reverse breathing, ‘packing’, strong focused attention, condensing, squeezing type practices) is dangerous unless you know what you’re doing… these can certainly drive stagnation deeper. But I don’t think most people are doing this sort of stuff.

 

Actually I think the most ubiquitous issue with LDT training is the unintended bolstering of one’s lower nature…

 

This is where Neigong practitioners start to become like coked-up Wallstreet Bros or like the classic frat boys.

 

Basically people can become obsessed with money, power, status and sex.

 

Its a major problem in many Neigong schools I’ve come across in Asia. I learned to avoid these types of schools - and it was a difficult lesson because even authentic, highly skilled teachers would go down this path.

 

Whoring, boozing, obsession with money and power/influence is super common in these arts.

 

This, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with LDT training.

 

Its one of those subversive problems - in that it comes about very slowly, and the transition is unnoticeable… often people will make excuses and justifications… ‘boys being boys’ type of thing. 
 

But within a short space of time this aspect of their nature gets stronger and stronger - and they soon become caricatures of their former selves.
 

It’s especially problematic for people who have a low self esteem coming into these practices. 

[freeform]

On 02/03/2022 at 5:02 PM, Trunk said:

2. What sort of practice & life-approach would be supportive of an average person?, average lifestyle?  *normal* healthy lifestyle?

In regards to this - I actually think that strong Dantien based practices are generally unsuited for the ‘average’ person. They’re usually better off doing the normal stuff like exercise, healthy eating and good sleep.

 

If they have an interest in this stuff - then simple practices that help them sink their qi and then move it gently is good for almost everyone.

 

People underestimate how difficult it is to really sink the qi and to anchor it there (as well as the life-changing results it can have for people).

 

But if they’re really motivated - and have a teacher - then a deeper focus on cultivating the Dantien and generating Qi is appropriate… 

Edited March 4, 2022 by freeform

[-_sometimes]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

People underestimate how difficult it is to really sink the qi and to anchor it there 

I'm curious, how long do you expect it would take the average neurotically inclined person to achieve this? Once 'achieved', is the qi anchored to the ldt constantly, even when involved in intellectual tasks - would there still be awareness of the body and the anchoring of the qi?

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

is the qi anchored to the ldt constantly, even when involved in intellectual tasks

Anchored means just that - your qi will indeed rise to your head for intellectual tasks - but it will still be anchored to the LDT - hope that makes sense.

 

Conversely for most ‘normal’ people their qi is anchored in the head or the heart… and doing qigong effectively helps them sink their qi to dantien for a brief time.

 

To change the point of anchoring can take time - mainly due to life… if you train for 1hr a day you’re sunk (at best) that full hour… but as soon as you’re back to normal life - the qi will rise…

 

Sometimes there’s a tipping point when the anchoring shifts suddenly as a result of release.

 

More often it’s a period of time that gradually changes your habitual tendencies.

 

The key is - when you relax and don’t do anything - where does the qi go?

 

So for that reason it takes anything between 1 month and 3yrs.

 

As if to make it all a lot more annoying - if you try to speed up the process - this normally sends the qi upward 

 

On a retreat - with your full attention paid to training rather than the normal stimulus of life it can be quite quick.

 

But the speed doesn’t matter, in my opinion. Just keep doing your training and it will all happen in its own time. There’s no rush

 

(the rush will only send it back up anyway 😂)

[anshino23]

37 minutes ago, freeform said:

Anchored means just that - your qi will indeed rise to your head for intellectual tasks - but it will still be anchored to the LDT - hope that makes sense.

 

Conversely for most ‘normal’ people their qi is anchored in the head or the heart… and doing qigong effectively helps them sink their qi to dantien for a brief time.

 

To change the point of anchoring can take time - mainly due to life… if you train for 1hr a day you’re sunk (at best) that full hour… but as soon as you’re back to normal life - the qi will rise…

 

Sometimes there’s a tipping point when the anchoring shifts suddenly as a result of release.

 

More often it’s a period of time that gradually changes your habitual tendencies.

 

The key is - when you relax and don’t do anything - where does the qi go?

 

So for that reason it takes anything between 1 month and 3yrs.

 

As if to make it all a lot more annoying - if you try to speed up the process - this normally sends the qi upward 

 

On a retreat - with your full attention paid to training rather than the normal stimulus of life it can be quite quick.

 

But the speed doesn’t matter, in my opinion. Just keep doing your training and it will all happen in its own time. There’s no rush

 

(the rush will only send it back up anyway 😂)

 

I am still a bit confused about what it means, but maybe I am just overthinking this... 

 

How do you know if your Qi is anchored in the LDT or is situated in the heart or head?

 

What are the clear signs of either one of those being the case?

 

You say most people are stuck in heart or head - but do you mean that their awareness operates from within those spheres (the UDT and MDT) or rather that due to emotional afflictions there is simply more "activity" operating from those spheres? For instance this is a heatmap from a study described in "The Neuroscience of Emotion" by Adolphs and Anderson. Is this what is meant by people's being stuck in the head and heart? See sadness/surprise/fear/anger/anxiety, etc.

 

 

 

Would it be correct to assume that in someone with anchored Qi - we would see a uniform flow such as in the happiness example but perhaps also at the same time increased activity in the LDT area? 

 

Maybe I'm thinking of it all wrong - would appreciate the input - thanks  

[-_sometimes]

59 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

On a retreat - with your full attention paid to training rather than the normal stimulus of life it can be quite quick

Aside from excessive thinking, what parts of normal life prevent qi from sinking? Is it related to Jing in some way? Can certain things hinder the anchoring process? I'm confident caffeine for instance, doesn't help at all

 

59 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

How do you know if your Qi is anchored in the LDT or is situated in the heart or head?

Simple - say you sit down for some practice… before doing anything you take a few minutes to relax - where does your qi go? Where does your mind/awareness go?

 

If it goes to the feeling of stable, physical presence (and that’s it)… if you feel a sort of weight and gentle warmth in your belly - then you’re probably anchored.

 

If your awareness is up and out… seeking stimulation from the environment… or your mind starts to daydream or run through thoughts, ideas, events… if you feel uncomfortable, fidgety, bored and not at ease - then you’re probably unanchored.

 

Thats probably the most basic way to be able to tell.

 

10 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

this is a heatmap

I’m not really sure what this heatmap shows… is that blood flow?

 

I don’t think these diagrams correlate necessarily.

 

The way qi distributes will be different depending on your stage of training.

 

Sorry if that unclear. Feel free to ask clarifying questions - and I’ll see if I can help  

 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, -_sometimes said:

Aside from excessive thinking, what parts of normal life prevent qi from sinking? Is it related to Jing in some way? Can certain things hinder the anchoring process? I'm confident caffeine for instance, doesn't help at all

 

 

 

Emotional reactions.

 

If you get swept up with emotions or emotional thinking (politics is an example of that) - then that’s usually counterproductive.

 

As you say - over thinking is the other one… 

 

Hyper-vigilance is another one.

 

Seeking stimulation (feeling bored and wanting to end the boredom).

 

6 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Is it related to Jing in some way?

kinda.

 

The Jing is affected by stimulation and habitual compulsions (various addictions)…

 

But the breath anchoring practice (along with standing and moving forms) are practices for deliberately overcoming these things and over time anchoring your Qi at your LDT.

[anshino23]

Okay that makes more sense then. So it's essentially related to the mental state. Which kinda begs the next question: Is anchoring the Qi in the abdomen then a cause or an effect? In other words if someone works on the aspects you just mentioned "seeking stimulation from the environment… or your mind starts to daydream or run through thoughts, ideas, events… if you feel uncomfortable, fidgety, bored and not at ease - then you’re probably unanchored" would said person still be anchored in the LDT? In other words a person that never feels those emotions you described when they sit down - they're just naturally anchored? 

 

If I understand correctly we're trying to "lull" the awareness to sink under its own weight into the lower abdominal space (aka lower 'tien', no dan) - but any mental action (effort) will have the Qi rise again. Isn't the most important thing then just to still the mind and the Qi will naturally sink? Ala emptiness meditation. What does interacting with the abdomen do specifically that allows for the mind to be settled? As you mentioned one can do mental work - but still be "anchored" in the LDT. 

 

Like is there then a degree of anchoring? Where we say "Well if the person is feeling slightly uncomfortable well then they've already moved out of being anchored in the LDT" - which to me then seems to suggest well that's a major part of training right there. No one except those that then have achieved something similar to absorption and complete emotional equanimity would be able to stay anchored at all times.

 

So most practictioners would essentially throughout the day then be moving through "anchored"/"unachored" continuously cycling like that? 

 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

’m not really sure what this heatmap shows… is that blood flow?

 

I don’t think these diagrams correlate necessarily.

 

The way qi distributes will be different depending on your stage of training.

 

Yes it is showing blood flow. Blood and Qi is connected I would imagine? 

 

So is having anchored Qi in the LDT a stage of training? I would imagine (if the criteria is as listed above) it requires quite a lot from practictioners since most have some degree of afflictive emotions such as "uncomfort, anxiety, not at ease, bored, daydreaming, distracted, etc." when they sit - at least until they are at a certain stage of proficiency of having cleansed/purified both mind and body. 

 

I hope my questions are making sense. Thank you  

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

So it's essentially related to the mental state.

 

That's a major part of it - yes... but not everything - it's one of the ingredients.
 

4 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

if someone works on the aspects you just mentioned "seeking stimulation from the environment… or your mind starts to daydream or run through thoughts, ideas, events… if you feel uncomfortable, fidgety, bored and not at ease - then you’re probably unanchored" would said person still be anchored in the LDT? In other words a person that never feels those emotions you described when they sit down - they're just naturally anchored?

 

I can think of situations where you may not have any of these 'symptoms' - but still not be anchored... for instance if you're asleep - or you're just empty of awareness (many meditators) - or you've managed to use a method successfully (though as soon as you stop 'doing' the method your Qi goes back to its habitual state.

 

7 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

As you mentioned one can do mental work - but still be "anchored" in the LDT.

 

Imagine there's a rubber band that connects your Qi and your LDT... the Qi and mind can go wherever they like - but as soon as any 'action' stops, they will be automatically pulled back to the DT - that's anchored.

If it sinks in response to a method - then it's not anchored yet - you're still training.

 

12 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Isn't the most important thing then just to still the mind and the Qi will naturally sink?

 

Yes - it will - but it won't naturally anchor there unless you have Qi. Some meditators get very good at stilling the mind quickly and Qi will often naturally sink while they're sat - yet they're still not anchored. It's still an action they have to take.

 

17 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

No one except those that then have achieved something similar to absorption and complete emotional equanimity would be able to stay anchored at all times.

 

You can be anchored all the time - but not sunk. So your qi and mind can move around, have emotions, solve complex sums... and then as soon as you stop, everything is pulled back to the LDT by its own action... you don't have to do anything - it's just your neutral state.

 

19 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

So most practictioners would essentially throughout the day then be moving through "anchored"/"unachored" continuously cycling like that? 

 

They would be cycling through sunk and unsunk. If they're anchored, simply resting will automatically draw everything down to the LDT.

 

21 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

it requires quite a lot from practictioners since most have some degree of afflictive emotions such as "uncomfort, anxiety, not at ease, bored, daydreaming, distracted, etc."

 

Yes - it's a function of stability. If your mind is stable these things should be easy to stop during practice... in day to day life - of course things are different.

 

29 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

So is having anchored Qi in the LDT a stage of training?

 

It is a stage yes... eventually you'll be anchored to the full body at once... later down the line you'll be anchored into the central channel and its various 'sheaths'... you can even be anchored to your energy body... or your causal body... or various spiritual bodies.

[freeform]

46 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Aside from excessive thinking, what parts of normal life prevent qi from sinking?

 

As a reply to both @-_sometimes and @anshino23 - the main issue, I believe (my own opinion) - is that people are addicted to stimulation.

As good as it feels - and as important as you may consider it, some aspect of you doesn't want to remain sunk and anchored - it wants fun, stimulation, new stuff for the mind and the senses. Often it's this aspect that holds us back.