zerostao

The Dangers of "Othering"

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A lot of recent discussions up top about 'clarity' and I haven't followed those threads. I am going to start this thread with clarity being key to this discussion.

Those that see clearly and/or think clearly are surely disheartened, shocked, appalled at the dynamic trend rearing its head, the ugliest monster of all--othering.

 Maybe it is my Cherokee ancestors calling out to me ( or different ancestors who left Europe perhaps to avoid some insane persecution) that experienced the dehumanizing and devastating effects of Othering.

Listen folks, some bad hard times are approaching at breakneck speed. That train no longer moves slowly and it is just around the bend and soon upon us. Upon us all.

 

I expect this thread to be moved to Current Events. I ask my fellow mods to let it remain here for a day or two, allowing its roots to grow. 

This thread isn't about politics or getting vaxxed or not. however, it is these two recent events that provide excuses for the Monster that parses folks into this pile or that pile to rise.

 

Whatever side you happen to be on, stop for a moment, think about humanity, think about your humanity. How would you feel if you are in a group that is attacked because you have been selected to feel the brunt of scapegoating. Emotional triggers are about to be set and set to go off that will allow the degrading, isolation, discrimination, abuse, and persecution of the group deemed unworthy.

 

I have more to say. this opening post is but a fragment.

 

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Posted (edited)

My approach to pandemic issues has always been to respect individual choice.  Few of us are virologically savvy -- nor should we be.  Fascinating though the subject might be, I´m more interested in cooking, writing, reading fiction, posting on Taobums, my various spiritual practices, and all the many things I do each day to ensure that my partner and I make it through in one piece, mentally and physically.  I´ll leave the in-depth study of viruses and our immune system for another life.  

 

So all I can do, all most of us can do, is read a bit and make a quick-and-dirty assessment of what we think is best.  Most people read mainstream news and follow mainstread guidance.  A minority prefer to frolic in the eddies and whirlpools of the sidestreams.  I´m a committed sidestreamer but I don´t for a minute question the intelligence and wisdom of my many more mainstream friends.  It´s natural to follow official guidance when it feels like our lives are at stake, which, for many of us, it does.  

 

Some communities are beginning to exclude unvaccinated people from some indoor spaces, such as restaurants.  This makes me sad.  In the right weather, an outdoor patio can be lovely but I do love, on occasion, to dine inside.  I think these kinds of policies are misguided and unscientific and unnecessarily polarizing.  But I get it.  People have been told that this is what´s necessary to keep themselves and their loved ones alive so naturally they´re all for it. 

 

All I ask for is respect.  Make whatever choices you deem necessary to keep yourself healthy.  If that means staying away from me I´ll understand.  But please know that, like you, I´m making the choices that make sense to me.  Can we make different choices and still respect each other´s humanity?  If we can, maybe we´ll make it through this after all.

Edited by liminal_luke
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Some communities are beginning to exclude unvaccinated people from some indoor spaces, such as restaurants. 

A couple of weeks ago, there was a tantric get-together at Ängsbacka in Sweden. 500 people from different countries, on close-contact seminars. Technically against the rules, but they didn't count the entire group but participants of separate seminars. 

So far, 104 documented covid infections. 

 

No clarity, no respect for others, in a group that probably deem themselves spiritually evolved and mature. 

 

So it is a hard subject. It is hard not to see me and others. 

 

Added: This might lead to red-listning of that area, affecting border trade and so on. 

If the participants had more clarity and was less driven by the desire for entertainment, this might not have happened and third part wouldn't have been harmed. 

Now, in the eyes of the local population, "they" (past, present and future participants) are the group that caused financial harm to that area. 

 

Too bad. 

 

Edited by Cleansox
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My neighbor downstairs went from being very jovial and affable to unambiguously hostile and passive-aggressive after I got covid.

 

She doesn’t faze me because I never leave without a mask and shield, which she would always complain about because she can’t understand me through that protection, but she herself never masks up and doesn’t seem to comprehend that I want to step away when she tries to move closer to chat.

 

I went from being someone she wanted to chat with whenever she saw me even if my language skills aren’t great to now wanting me exiled and even blocks delivery workers from coming up to my unit because she doesn’t want “her” home infected even if the landlady doesn’t mind the people coming up to give me food.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

A couple of weeks ago, there was a tantric get-together at Ängsbacka in Sweden. 500 people from different countries, on close-contact seminars. Technically against the rules, but they didn't count the entire group but participants of separate seminars. 

So far, 104 documented covid infections. 

 

No clarity, no respect for others, in a group that probably deem themselves spiritually evolved and mature. 

 

So it is a hard subject. It is hard not to see me and others. 

 

 

It´s been a dark moment for public workshop attending tantric sex enthusiasts.  Kinksters, spiritually oriented and otherwise, have abandoned their dungeons in droves: so many sling set-ups neglected and motionless, gathering dust in the dark.  Or so the more socially distanced among us, myself included, imagine.  In reality, it might be hard to keep a good  bad man down.  Women tantrikas, for all I know, might be equally irrepressible.  Hence the tragic news from Sweden.

 

I won´t argue here about public health policy.  Anti-orgy activists will hear no argument from me.  It may well be that people need to abstain from certain activities during the pandemic, among them those that require leather restraints and copious amounts of lube.  If so, so be it.  

 

All I ask for is respect.  

 

 

Edited by liminal_luke
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5 hours ago, zerostao said:

A lot of recent discussions up top about 'clarity' and I haven't followed those threads. I am going to start this thread with clarity being key to this discussion.

Those that see clearly and/or think clearly are surely disheartened, shocked, appalled at the dynamic trend rearing its head, the ugliest monster of all--othering.

 Maybe it is my Cherokee ancestors calling out to me ( or different ancestors who left Europe perhaps to avoid some insane persecution) that experienced the dehumanizing and devastating effects of Othering.

Listen folks, some bad hard times are approaching at breakneck speed. That train no longer moves slowly and it is just around the bend and soon upon us. Upon us all.

 

I expect this thread to be moved to Current Events. I ask my fellow mods to let it remain here for a day or two, allowing its roots to grow. 

This thread isn't about politics or getting vaxxed or not. however, it is these two recent events that provide excuses for the Monster that parses folks into this pile or that pile to rise.

 

Whatever side you happen to be on, stop for a moment, think about humanity, think about your humanity. How would you feel if you are in a group that is attacked because you have been selected to feel the brunt of scapegoating. Emotional triggers are about to be set and set to go off that will allow the degrading, isolation, discrimination, abuse, and persecution of the group deemed unworthy.

 

I have more to say. this opening post is but a fragment.

 

Which thread are you referring to @zerostao

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La te dah !   

 

Let's start up the covid discussion again  in the common public forum .    With a mod doing it and asking other mods not to move it ....yet .

 

There I go , being a 'trouble maker' again !  :rolleyes:

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8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

So sorry, @Earl Grey.  That sounds ghastly.


Tell me about it. I don’t get why she thinks preventing me from getting my food is helpful. I also don’t understand why she’s so mad that she’s at risk when she doesn’t wear a mask at all or close the door to her unit, constantly hanging outside with other neighbors, and then smoking and causing that to rise to my unit.

 

I may go full on Ugly American and just put my hand up and say “I don’t speak your language” with her to get her stop trying to mingle, because the tendency for people like this is to smile and act like nothing happened when they see you and don’t care if you know what they did or not. Well, I’m starving and I’m going to remember what she did for a long time because eating bread slices while she blocks delivery workers from coming up pissed me off and I can’t think of any justification for her being such a wretched little sack of protoplasm.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nungali said:

La te dah !   

 

Let's start up the covid discussion again  in the common public forum .    With a mod doing it and asking other mods not to move it ....yet .

 

There I go , being a 'trouble maker' again !  :rolleyes:

Except, this thread is not a covid discussion. Because it does not matter which side of the vaxx fence you are on. It is about darkness and hatred. It has happened before numerous times in history. It is about the  phenomenon of Othering. just like is says in the title of the thread.

watch this video, especially the first forty seconds. This is what this thread is discussing. Stay on topic.

 

 

 

Yet, I knew that covid would creep into it/ Just like it's creeping into everything much like how sand gets in everything in Florida.

 

This discussion is about a recurring phenomenon that cycles back around/ and when it does, folks use a worn out cliche'

"learn from history or be doomed to repeat it." and yet, here we are repeating it again.

 

edit>> read Earl Grey's post. this is what the thread is about.

 

 

Edited by zerostao
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18 hours ago, zerostao said:

A lot of recent discussions up top about 'clarity' and I haven't followed those threads. I am going to start this thread with clarity being key to this discussion.

Those that see clearly and/or think clearly are surely disheartened, shocked, appalled at the dynamic trend rearing its head, the ugliest monster of all--othering.

 Maybe it is my Cherokee ancestors calling out to me ( or different ancestors who left Europe perhaps to avoid some insane persecution) that experienced the dehumanizing and devastating effects of Othering.

Listen folks, some bad hard times are approaching at breakneck speed. That train no longer moves slowly and it is just around the bend and soon upon us. Upon us all.

 

I expect this thread to be moved to Current Events. I ask my fellow mods to let it remain here for a day or two, allowing its roots to grow. 

This thread isn't about politics or getting vaxxed or not. however, it is these two recent events that provide excuses for the Monster that parses folks into this pile or that pile to rise.

 

Whatever side you happen to be on, stop for a moment, think about humanity, think about your humanity. How would you feel if you are in a group that is attacked because you have been selected to feel the brunt of scapegoating. Emotional triggers are about to be set and set to go off that will allow the degrading, isolation, discrimination, abuse, and persecution of the group deemed unworthy.

 

I have more to say. this opening post is but a fragment.

 

good point. This could become nazi germany easily, but the blind never see

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3 hours ago, Toni said:

good point. This could become nazi germany easily, but the blind never see

 

Just a few days ago, you othered the whole forum. 

 

On 8/13/2021 at 5:49 PM, Toni said:

I absolutely agree with you. Many people on this forum are highly deluded, but I would say more. They lack intelligence and an independent personality, they are absolutely unable to think for themselves, just following the social wave. Their ability to think in an original responsible way is null, so they need to resort to high levels of delusion to imagine themselves as sages and skilful, believing they have a lot to teach you.

 

And they believe anything they are told uncritically in a childish way, no matter how stupid it is. The media utterly controls their impotent minds.

On 8/14/2021 at 3:27 PM, Toni said:

It is true that my tone may not be the most correct, but in such an unprecedented times as you put it maybe it would be better for you to try to understand what I am saying

 

This is not unique to you, however, as those who engage in othering don't like to look at themselves because everyone else seems to be a reminder of who they themselves are. 

 

It might help to do some self-reflection before pointing fingers at everyone else.

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I think "othering," if I understand what this is pointing to, is hard-wired into humans, perhaps into all sentient beings.

As soon as the sense of "me" is there, the sense of "not me" or "other" is there.

Politicians use this tendency effectively and irresponsibly to control and manipulate populations. 

Social media seems to be accentuating "otherness" by allowing us to partially read each other's minds, at least the reactive, painful and frightened parts.

Spirituality, at least as I define it, is a reversal of this tendency, an examination of the source of self which is linked to an examination of the nature of self and other, culminating in a realization that transcends this distinction.

This idea of other can help to distinguish religion from spirituality. Religion is characterized by differentiation, spirituality is characterized by unification.

 

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Interesting times.  The motto of the day:  Rage on Behalf of the Machine. 

 

The only explanation that makes any sense to me these days is that I have somehow been kicked off the real timeline and landed in some simulation version generated by the Machine to test what it can do to us.  Apparently it's finding out that it can do anything it wants.    

 

Whoever the Machine instructs people of this timeline to rage against is the "other."  Whatever the Machine instructs them to do to the "other," they will do with great dedication and absolute conviction.

 

The world has never known the Machine as formidable as today.  But tomorrow's Machine will dwarf it.

 

There will be no "otherness" in no time. 

 

Welcome to the Machine.  

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Posted (edited)

Othering is often seen as a large-scale societal problem, something experienced as "out there," a problem too big to be tackled by individuals.  But it´s impossible to put up othering fences between ourselves and other people without putting up those same fences between parts of ourselves.  A fence is a fence is a fence. That´s a good thing because while the societal problem of othering may seem daunting, we have the power to integrate and unify ourselves.

 

As I understand it, a principle of Tai Chi dynamics is that every part of the body should be connected.  The hands, for instance, should not go rogue and wave around seemingly on their own.  Ultimately, we are ONE body and good Tai Chi is simply the moving demonstration of this fact.  In the same way that our larger anatomical structures -- arms, legs, torso, etc -- can evidence this unity, we can work to integrate ourselves on ever more subtle levels.  Individual cells in the walls of the large intestines can be in fluid communication with individual neurons in the brain.  This is health.  Unity can also be achieved on an invisible psychological level, amongst our various emotions and behavioral impulses.  Think soul retrieval, good psychotherapy, going to 12 step meetings, the natural process of psychological maturation that life itself brings to some, if not all.  

 

When we stop othering ourselves, we stop othering others.

Edited by liminal_luke
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17 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Interesting times.  The motto of the day:  Rage on Behalf of the Machine. 

 

The only explanation that makes any sense to me these days is that I have somehow been kicked off the real timeline and landed in some simulation version generated by the Machine to test what it can do to us.  Apparently it's finding out that it can do anything it wants.    

 

Whoever the Machine instructs people of this timeline to rage against is the "other."  Whatever the Machine instructs them to do to the "other," they will do with great dedication and absolute conviction.

 

The world has never known the Machine as formidable as today.  But tomorrow's Machine will dwarf it.

 

There will be no "otherness" in no time. 

 

Welcome to the Machine.  

This machine is ugly indeed!

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23 minutes ago, Toni said:

This machine is ugly indeed!

 

"Garbage in, garbage out"

No matter how elegant a computer program may be,

if it is applied to the wrong dataset, 

disastrous results may be produced.

 

Has the machine itself become yet another other? 

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31 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

"Garbage in, garbage out"

No matter how elegant a computer program may be,

if it is applied to the wrong dataset, 

disastrous results may be produced.

 

Has the machine itself become yet another other? 


Rage Against Florence and the Machine.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

 

Has the machine itself become yet another other? 

 

Just because a word as broad in meaning as "other" carries negative connotations in some contexts doesn't mean it refers to something bad in all circumstances for all purposes.

   

No, the machine hasn't "become" other.  It has always been "other."  We are not a natural part of the machine.  We are embodied.  The machine is incorporated.  The Latin meaning -- "taking possession of a body," "intruding into a body," "adding other things to a body" or "forming an artificial body out of parts" -- in other words, hijacking a body and/or assembling an automaton, a machine out of stolen/altered bodies.  Originally "to incorporate" referred to what demons do when they take control of human bodies.  An incorporated body means a body possessed by demons.

 

We are not "the same" as demons originally.  We are "other" to the world of demons, and to the world they assemble into the Machine.  We can only be displaced (no longer embodied, kicked out of our own bodies) toward corporate (corporeal) unity with them.  

 

  

Edited by Taomeow
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Posted (edited)

One of the root problems we have is the predominance of Me, You (my friend) and Them thinking.  

Put in a nut shell,

I judge myself in the best possible light.. making generous allowances due to past troubles.

I judge You, my friend, kindly but frankly.

I judge Them, the stranger, perhaps enemy, in the darkest possible light.

 

I make the turn at 45 miles per hour, I am a frickin amazing driver.

You make the turn at 45, you are reckless and not paying attention

He makes the turn, he is a murderous idiot who's going to kill somebody.

 

There are lighter and heavier examples of this.  Happening all the time.  Sometimes justified, often not.  I think we'd live better and happier if we toned it down quite a bit, mostly staying in the 'You' zone.  Too often, we feed into it, seeking out articles and people who love rallying against the Evil of the Other.  

It's humorously and tragically on display now as Biden carried out the pledge that Trump made earlier to leave Afghanistan.

Edited by thelerner
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3 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

One of the (potentially) disastrous failures of digital data capture and storage in healthcare is exactly this. Electronic health record (EHR) systems are ridiculously complex, requiring hundreds or thousands of data points to be defined for each and every interaction in an effort to digitize something organic and fluid. Not to mention the huge amount of worthless and unnecessary information that must be captured to satisfy federal guidelines. Needless to say, there are many routine, unintentional errors during data input. It’s a rare clinician who can click a few hundred boxes or type rapidly with no mistakes in the midst of a busy and demanding clinic. Rarer yet is the one who will take the time to review and correct each and every check-box, transcription, or typed note in an encounter… One would never get through even a very light day.

 

When an EHR system was first installed where I work, one of the company reps was proudly extolling the virtues of data collection by the system and its value for research. My reply was “have you ever heard the expression garbage in, garbage out?” She looked confused until I explained what I described above regarding the need for precise and meticulous data collection and the likelihood of that happening in the majority of clinical settings. She then looked a bit nauseated and upset and walked away without another word. 

 

The truth is that the objective of healthcare digitization is not accurate documentation or meaningful research. It is first and foremost for data mining by governments and the corporate opportunists who own and operate them. And such digitization is being aggressively pushed in the healthcare industry with stiff monetary penalties for those who don’t comply. This is one of many reasons why it is so difficult to make any sense or have confidence in “scientific” healthcare data and the studies that depend on them.

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7 hours ago, steve said:

I think "othering," if I understand what this is pointing to, is hard-wired into humans, perhaps into all sentient beings.

As soon as the sense of "me" is there, the sense of "not me" or "other" is there.

 

I agree that the sense of 'others' 'not me' exist is hardwired in. How I choose to act towards 'others' is a choice.

 

7 hours ago, steve said:

Politicians use this tendency effectively and irresponsibly to control and manipulate populations. 

Social media seems to be accentuating "otherness" by allowing us to partially read each other's minds, at least the reactive, painful and frightened parts.

 

This is a pressing dilemma, to say the least.

 

7 hours ago, steve said:

Spirituality, at least as I define it, is a reversal of this tendency, an examination of the source of self which is linked to an examination of the nature of self and other, culminating in a realization that transcends this distinction.

This idea of other can help to distinguish religion from spirituality. Religion is characterized by differentiation, spirituality is characterized by unification.

 

 

Spiritual charging stations are few and far between; are the masses doomed to repeat the cycle, roughly,  every 4th generation ?

2021

1941

1861

1781

...

...

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7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Interesting times.  The motto of the day:  Rage on Behalf of the Machine. 

 

The only explanation that makes any sense to me these days is that I have somehow been kicked off the real timeline and landed in some simulation version generated by the Machine to test what it can do to us.  Apparently it's finding out that it can do anything it wants.    

 

Whoever the Machine instructs people of this timeline to rage against is the "other."  Whatever the Machine instructs them to do to the "other," they will do with great dedication and absolute conviction.

 

The world has never known the Machine as formidable as today.  But tomorrow's Machine will dwarf it.

 

There will be no "otherness" in no time. 

 

Welcome to the Machine.  

Stark forecast with predicted long shadows.

instead of resistance/resilience the machine encounters fervorous  converts.

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