Damo Mitchell? tell me what you think

[Antares]

4 hours ago, Cleansox said:

No, but before doing Nei Dan (if that starts with the reversal) one should go through the process of tong guan, which according to Wang Mu is a houtian practice. 

Wouldn't the curriculum in Lotus Neigong be sufficient for this? 

 

Wasn't this what you were referring to earlier? 

Or am I missing where in the process this discussion were?

 

Dude, you are not attentive. I replied to you in other thread. I can repeat it once again. This is quote from Damo' book

Quote

Unlike many other traditions Neidan sitting practices seamlessly work together with standing and moving energetic exercises such as Dao Yin and Qigong to create a dynamic system which encompasses a veriety of internal techniques.  

 

He writes that "Neidan SITTING practices" WORK TOGETHER WITH QIGONG. This is nonsense. Can you quote any classic texts which support the idea that at the outset daoist practised sitting along with qigong? This can be preparatory to Neidan stage, yes, I agree but  not "NEIDAN SITTING PRACTICES" at the stage of "Laying the Foundation". If this book is about preparatory stage why he calls it "neidan sitting"? What is "Laying the Foundation" in his lineage?  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Antares

[Wilhelm]

9 hours ago, Antares said:

He writes that "Neidan SITTING practices" WORK TOGETHER WITH QIGONG. This is nonsense. Can you bring quotes from any classic texts that at the outset daoist practised sitting along with qigong? This can be preparatory to Neidan stage, yes, I agree but  not "NEIDAN SITTING PRACTICES" at the stage of "Laying the Foundation". If this book is about preparatory stage why he calls it "neidan sitting"? What is "Laying the Foundation" in his lineage?  

It's pretty simple, really.

 

You know how you keep saying about how too much sitting creates stagnation?  Well Damo thinks so too.  So he includes Dao Yin and Qigong training alongside Nei Dan to account for this.  These are the moving and dynamic exercises you are keen on that help balance all the sitting from Nei Dan.  He is not saying that Qigong and Dao Yin are Nei Dan, that is your misunderstanding.

 

Edit2: 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Antares]

33 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Edit: Fact-checking your Damo quotes is turning out to be a bit of a part-time job.  I don't suppose we could come to some conclusions about the matter?  Most of your questions could be answered, actually, if you read all the way through the book (instead of pulling quotes), and cross referenced with his 'Comprehensive Daoist Guide to Nei Gong'

If you follow up his teaching why you personally can not explain in plain words what are the "foundations" and "intermediate" stages if you already read the book and you do it? 

[Wilhelm]

20 minutes ago, Antares said:

If you follow up his teaching why you personally can not explain in plain words what are the "foundations" and "intermediate" stages if you already read the book and you do it? 

When I asked you where you were drawing the quote 'laying the foundations' from, I wanted to know if you had been referencing Damo or some other source.  Because different systems tend to build the foundations differently, context is important.

 

I'm not sure where we talked about "intermediate" stages, but since we've gone in circles on this topic for some time now, I'm sure you're right that it came up at some point.  

 

Edit: I appreciate you're working out some of your ideas about Nei Dan, Damo Mitchell, and Northern Daoism here.  Some of them keep coming up again and again, and I can see that you're trying to refine them.  Would you be interested in posting a personal practice blog with all your ideas?  That way we could talk about them directly without repeatedly derailing threads.  Also, if you find my fact checking annoying you could delete my posts if they were in your own practice log 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Master Logray]

16 hours ago, Antares said:

Sitting is designed more for the final stage. At the beginning moving must prevail over sitting. Da Zuo is used for mind heart sinking and should be done no more than 20 minutes per day because sitting exhausts jing. Da Zuo is not Xing but xin cultivation. Read classics, what Wang Chongyang wrote about initial stages. (The Farther of the Northern Schools). He says that Ming cultivation is followed by Xing cultivation. If you do not have the basis how can you meditate?  From

 

 

The classics of Internal Alchemy always base on sitting, with very little mention of ChiKung or DaoYin.  

16 hours ago, Antares said:

Sitting is designed more for the final stage. At the beginning moving must prevail over sitting. Da Zuo is used for mind heart sinking and should be done no more than 20 minutes per day because sitting exhausts jing. Da Zuo is not Xing but xin cultivation. Read classics, what Wang Chongyang wrote about initial stages. (The Farther of the Northern Schools). He says that Ming cultivation is followed by Xing cultivation. If you do not have the basis how can you meditate?  From

The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters

By Stephen Eskildsen 

 

 

I check up the  重陽真人金關玉鎖訣, it doesn't specifically specify the process or when to start off sitting.   At least according to the book, a person has first to follow the precepts, be quiet, bear with humiliations, compassion, doing good deeds, cut off vices, .... loyal to the emperor, respect the parents and teachers.  Then they can start off with the real cultivation, which most likely means in a sitting environment.   No wonder there are stories that students are required to run errand for 10 years without receiving any teaching from the masters.  Until they are ready, then the methods will be taught.

 

All Taoist activities use up Jing.  Sitting is already the better one in terms of efficiency compare with moving and standing.  For most of the people, this Jing expenditure creates more benefits than not doing.

 

On the question of sitting produces too much Yin, normally sitting is to purge the Yin rather than creating the problem.  But you are right this problem arise when the practitioner is old or sick, or practise Buddhist meditation.  Some complementary exercises are necessary to achieve a balance.  Bodidharma had addresses this problem when he preached Zen in China 1500 years ago. 

 

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

I provided many links. If you can not comprehend it, it is no my problem 

Yes, but the question is if you comprehend them. 

 

I'll give you a hint: If the text you quote combine the term "seated" or "sitting" with another term, the meaning change and might not be about just the fact that the ass is on the ground. 

 

If you can find a quote that just speak about the seated position, without adding terms that might be used for meditations related to Emptiness, but specifically is about this stage of Nei Dan, then you have support for your point. 

[Cleansox]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

 

Dude, you are not attentive. 

Actually, dude, I am attentive. 

But for every round of this we do, something is added, so it gets more complicated to follow 😊

8 hours ago, Antares said:

replied to you in other thread. I can repeat it once again. This is quote from Damo' book

 

He writes that "Neidan SITTING practices" WORK TOGETHER WITH QIGONG. This is nonsense. Can you quote any classic texts which support the idea that at the outset daoist practised sitting along with qigong?

The classic texts I have read do not mention position, not as I recall at least. They tend to focus on hiding the true method in as complex language as possible, while still leaving enough that the student who has the Keys to the code get guidance. 

 

Some of them dance between layers like butterflies around flowers; now here, now there, and now using one layer as a code for the other. Rather magnificent, actually. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

This can be preparatory to Neidan stage, yes, I agree but  not "NEIDAN SITTING PRACTICES" at the stage of "Laying the Foundation".

See below, some of that might fit here. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

If this book is about preparatory stage why he calls it "neidan sitting"?

This is a good point! 

Although the author doesn't think it is about the preparatory stage only, he thinks it goes further than that. 

8 hours ago, Antares said:

What is "Laying the Foundation" in his lineage?  

He doesn't say, does he? 

And the curriculum at large is a amalgation of methods from different lineages, based on principles that should lead to proper foundations (a guess from my side!) But the entire curriculum mentioned in his books should cover the xin and the clearing of the channels. Or do you disagree on that, and why? 

 

Your problem here seems partially be about nomenclature, which can be a mess. Where does "Nei Dan practice" start? Can it differ between lineages? Isn't it likely that it changes between lineages? 

 

According to Wang Mu, Nei Dan proper is after clearing the channels (unsure if it includes replenishing or not). 

 

For the rest:

If we use Wang Mus book as a source for the process (since it is publicly available), he discuss xin methods followed by clearing the channels and then replenishing. The replenishing is the final part of laying the foundation. Unless one does not teach replenishing.... 

 

Cannot one do xin methods seated, or does those not count? 

 

Or, depending on how my poor unattentive mind is reading your post, are you saying that a person practicing Nei Dan is forbidden to practice qigong/daoyin/IMA anymore, unless one is calling it Moving Nei Dan which makes it ok? 

 

Or are you just miffed because Damo teaches differently that the school you adheres to, and you have an innate need to nag on that instead of talking about your own practice? 

[Geof Nanto]

Outside of all the disputation here, I can’t understand why you all seem to agree that Damo’s teaching is Northern School.  I’m not a student of his, but from his writing and videos he’s all about starting with qi work and that’s ming practice. Freeform too has mentioned on more than one occasion that his practice centres on qi cultivation. That’s obvious from his posts. This is Nanzong (Southern Lineage) stuff. As has been mentioned, Nanzong’s doctrines are traditionally summed up in the phrase xianming houxing (“first vital force then inner nature”). Whereas the Northern Lineage (Beizong) begins with meditation and claims that ming will be reinforced naturally. That’s definitely not Damo or freeform. Sure, from what they write, they both understand the importance of cultivating both ming and xing (xingming shuangxiu, or "conjoined cultivation of xing and ming") but most definitely do not start with xing.  

 

(There’s a comprehensive article by Fabrizio Pregadio on the Goldern Elixir website titled, The Northern and Southern Lineages of Neidan. )

 

Am I missing something here? I’m genuinely interested to know why you don’t see these practices as ming first. I’ve always taken that they are as an unquestioned given. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Yueya

[Creation]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

 

Am I missing something here? I’m genuinely interested to know why you don’t see these practices as ming first. I’ve always taken that they are as an unquestioned given. 

I would be curious what an example of a xinggong first teacher would be.  Even Wang Liping, who is unquestionably Longmen and teaches mostly still seated practice, says that the jing to qi level of cultivation is minggong (and that qi to shen is a mix of minggong and xinggong, and shen to wu is pure xinggong, as I recall).  

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

Outside of all the disputation here, I can’t understand why you all seem to agree that Damo’s teaching is Northern School. 

 

Am I missing something here? I’m genuinely interested to know why you don’t see these practices as ming first. I’ve always taken that they are as an unquestioned given. 

 

Yes, he teaches material from an alchemical branch of Long Men, and has always advertised as doing so.

 

I can't comment on the difference between Southern and Northern Daoism, but maybe it's no so simple as one side starts with energy work and another with meditation.  There's lines within lines within traditions all under the term 'Northern Daoism' so although I'm not a scholar on the topic I'd be really surprised if there was such a plain and simple division.

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks for the replies @Creationand @Wilhelm. Daoist lineages are only something peripheral to my interest so I don’t want to get bogged down on that complex topic. Nor do I have any problems with Damo Mitchell. From what I know of him, he is an awesome teacher. And if you guys are happy with him, I say stick with him.  And if someone else prefers a different teaching, I say stay with that and don’t be concerned with disputation (except if a person wishes to increase their knowledge through research during the debate, hone their disputation skills, or gain a glimpse of aspects of their own hidden shadow by noting what emotions are stirred up. All of which, to my mind, are legitimate aspects of xing practice when undertaken with an attitude of learning. I personally have benefited from all these in this brief engagement with the topic. )

 

I get the impression that Damo has developed his own approach based on his thorough grounding in a number of different traditional practices. I like that. I’d call his school syncretic and in that he continues the way Daoism has evolved over the last two millennia. He is very much a part of ongoing Daoist syncretism.

 

From the Encyclopedia of Taoism:

 

Quote

 

Daoism took shape through the integration of various trends of thought and religious practice. Unlike Confucians and Buddhists, most Daoists accepted and even asserted this syncretic tendency. This is one of the reasons it is difficult to give Daoism an exact definition. In fact, syncretism enriched Daoism but can also be a source of confusion to its students; some Daoist texts are veritable patchworks resulting from centuries of progressive additions…..

 

Neidan, as it began to flourish during the Sung dynasty, synthesized Daoist elements (including breathing exercises, waidan language, and visualizations), Buddhist speculations, Chan didactic methods, and a systematic use of the Yijing trigrams and hexagrams. Neidan sinified the Buddhist dialectic of Non-being and Being, giving it the form of a dialectic between Yln and Yang…

 

 

 

To say Damo’s lineage connections are Longman (Dragon Gate) paints a very broad canvas. There’s an excellent essay on the Longman lineage available as a free pdf download on the Golden Elixir website. Here’s an extract from the conclusion (my bold):

 

As we have seen, the Longmen lineage enjoyed a time of great development since Wang Changyue, in the early Qing period, transmitted the precepts and gathered followers at the Baiyun guan in Beijing, and then in Nanjing, Hangzhou, Huzhou, and Mount Wudang. The time of greatest flourishing occurred between the mid-17th and the early 19th centuries. This period saw the multiplication of Longmen branches, many of which have continued to be transmitted until the present day. For this reason, Longmen was the most prosperous Taoist lineage in the last part of premodern China, and almost came to represent the whole of Quanzhen. Its prominence is comparable to the prominence of the Linji School among the five schools of Chan Buddhism. This is why a saying goes, “Linji and Longmen have divided the world between themselves”

 

In addition to inheriting the doctrines of its mother lineage, Quanzhen, the Longmen lineage is also widely known for its Neidan (Internal Alchemy) teachings. Among its disciples we find many famous authors of Neidan works, including Wu Shouyang, Xie Ningsu Liu Huayang, the above-mentioned Liu Yiming, and Min Yide.  Their works on Neidan follow the earlier texts but also expand upon them, and compared to them are clearer and more detailed.

 

Unlike early Quanzhen, whose center was in the North, the center of the Longmen transmission was Jiangnan [broadly, the present-day provinces of Jiangsu, Jiangxi, and Zhejiang.], and thus Longmen could not avoid receiving the influence of Zhengyi (Correct Unity), the typical form of Daoism in the South.  In fact, we can see a trend towards the merging of Longmen and Zhengyi…..

 

 

With this long post and associated linked articles I'm very happy to bow out of this discussion. 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Yueya

[Antares]

20 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

When I asked you where you were drawing the quote 'laying the foundations' from, I wanted to know if you had been referencing Damo or some other source.  Because different systems tend to build the foundations differently, context is important.

The problem is that some people can not comprehend what is "Laying The Foundation" stage in Neidan. I quote it in every second post but all in vain. I repeat it once again: "The alchemical practice, however, is concerned with the human body. At the initial stage of the Neidan process, therefore, one should first replenish the basic constituents of the body, so that they conform to the requirements of the practice. Only then is it possible to undertake the stages of alchemical refinement proper." 

 

This is common stage for all schools for without this stage accomplishment the further Neidan process is not possible. At this stage a practitioner should replenish Yuan Qi to some degree and this process involves certain specific practice which is NOT Dazuo and which is NOT based on individuals mind - heart and post - heaven Qi. There was a discussion on DaoBums a few years ago (read it):

 

Quote

Lü Dongbin asked his teacher Zhongli Quan: "Why is Great Dao difficult to understand and realize?"

 

Zhongli Quan answered: "Because false methods of minor schools are considered efficient and widely spread among the laity; they are passed from one to another and until death the true awareness does not come; they subsequently become customary and discredit the Great Dao.

 

These are such methods as:

1. Fasting.

2. Starvation.

3. Gathering of qi.

4. Saliva swallowing.

5. Sexual abstinence.

6. Forgoing tastes.

7. Chan meditation.

8. Silence.

9. Awareness.

10. The Art of the inner chambers.

11. Inhaling much, exhaling little.

12. Maintaining purity.

13. Quieting (thoughts stopping).

14. Avoiding fatigue.

15. Opening of the heads crown.

16. Puckering genitals into ones body.

17. Symptoms disappearance.

18. Canons reading and recitation.

19. Outer alchemy.

20. Breathe restraining.

21. Dao Yin practices.

22. Tu Na gymnastics.

23. Gathering and replenishing.

24. Charity and donations.

25. Sacrifices.

26. Giving help.

27. Retreating into mountains.

28. Innate wisdom (analytical mind).

29. Immobility.

30. Formal maintaining of the teaching lineage.

 

Its not possible to fully recite all the minor schools and inconsistent methods. To the extent that (they):

 

Gather essence of sun and moon and accumulate Qi of Heaven and Earth.

Think endlessly, hoping to produce cinnabar.

Bend the body, exhausting it, trying to break free.

Inhale a lot, but exhale a little, in attempt to cure diseases, considering it a true embryonic breathing.

Halt thinking and forget the words, that correspond to nurturing the nature of xing, but this just points to cultivation of the true of qi contained in the Great Fundamental.

Practice the art of inner chambers, but this is just a lower cultivation method of the fate - ming.

Immobilize the body like a withered tree, and make the mind calm like cold ash - and this is a small art of spirit concentration.

 What all these methods have in common? They are based on POST HEAVEN QI where Mind-heart involved and is used. That' why Dazuo, quiet sitting, Dao Yin, contemplation, breath work on this account CAN NOT BE NEIDAN PRACTICES. All post-heaven is Yin but Yuan QI is Yang. At the stage of "Laying The Foundation" a practitioner MUST NOURISH YANG - YUAN QI. 

 

[Antares]

15 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Yes, but the question is if you comprehend them. 

 

I'll give you a hint: If the text you quote combine the term "seated" or "sitting" with another term, the meaning change and might not be about just the fact that the ass is on the ground. 

 

If you can find a quote that just speak about the seated position, without adding terms that might be used for meditations related to Emptiness, but specifically is about this stage of Nei Dan, then you have support for your point. 

 

Read my previous post where I quoted daoist classic text. Is it independent source for you or not? Or you will say again that this is somebodies interpretation? It does not matter sitting, standing, reversing, jumping until it based on post-heaven Qi which is Yin in nature.

But as you can see chan meditations and breath work are considered as inconsistent methods of cultivation. What are the Damo' methods described in his book as of "foundation" and "intermediate" stages? All exercises which "gather qi" (number three in the list) or (7,8,9) are Yin in comparison to Yuan Qi. It can be practised prior to "Laying the Foundation" stage for the heart-mind stabilization only. If you say that all these post-heaven methods can nourish Yang Qi (Yuan Qi) then quote classic texts to support your statements   

The quote from that text above

Quote

Under no circumstances wanted to cultivate and fulfill the Great Dao, outshone their contemporaries, only cared about the happiness and avoidance of failures, did not believe in innermost secrets and only multiplied the wealth and neglected their fate, thus heading to turn into devils (ghost)!

 

Everything that is based on postheaven is Yin in nature and dispels Yang.  

Edited March 30, 2021 by Antares

[Antares]

10 hours ago, Yueya said:

Outside of all the disputation here, I can’t understand why you all seem to agree that Damo’s teaching is Northern School.  I’m not a student of his, but from his writing and videos he’s all about starting with qi work and that’s ming practice. Freeform too has mentioned on more than one occasion that his practice centres on qi cultivation. That’s obvious from his posts. This is Nanzong (Southern Lineage) stuff.

Nope. Standing, breath work, dao yin... is number 3 in 

Quote

These are such methods as:

1. Fasting.

2. Starvation.

3. Gathering of qi.

4. Saliva swallowing.

5. Sexual abstinence.

6. Forgoing tastes.

7. Chan meditation.

8. Silence.

9. Awareness.

 Only when you have any background in southern school you will be able to compare methods. Southern methods are quite specific and all based on "heart to heart" transmission. But stances, sitting, swallowing... all are xin-Xing methods but not ming 

[Wilhelm]

9 hours ago, Yueya said:

Thanks for the replies @Creationand @Wilhelm

 

I get the impression that Damo has developed his own approach based on his thorough grounding in a number of different traditional practices. I like that. I’d call his school syncretic and in that he continues the way Daoism has evolved over the last two millennia. He is very much a part of ongoing Daoist syncretism.

I've heard that perception on Daobums before, but apparently all the Nei Gong/Nei Dan stuff comes from one Dragon Gate line (the martial arts don't come from the same type of lineages).

Quote

 To say Damo’s lineage connections are Longman (Dragon Gate) paints a very broad canvas. There’s an excellent essay on the Longman lineage available as a free pdf download on the Golden Elixir website. Here’s an extract from the conclusion (my bold):

Yeah I know that Long Men a big school and this doesn't help narrow it down.  

 

It doesn't add to Damo's marketing that his teacher prefers to keep his name private, but I certainly understand his decision.

Quote

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edit: Never mind.  That's enough of that

Edited March 30, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

 

 

Quote

 

Edit: My bad - let myself get sucked in again 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Antares]

30 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I know that's a common perception on Daobums, but apparently he hasn't.  Though he studied broadly, the public material related to Nei Dan and Nei Gong comes from this one Dragon Gate line (the martial arts don't come from the same type of lineages).  According to him (and freeform, I believe), this teacher prefers to keep their name private

 

I would not trust anyone who says like "I have a teacher and he lives in seclusion... his name is very secret". We had such a person making similar claims and he held seminars spreading out his teaching. His "teaching" was very similar to what Damo teaches. If we do not  have methods and theories from authentic lineage many people would think he is genuine teacher. Did anyone see Damo's teacher?  

 

23 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Oh, I think I see what the problem has been.  Yeah Damo calls anything from the firing process onwards as Nei Dan, and teaches a great deal of material prior to that to lay the foundations.

But what are the methods he teaches that work with Yuan Qi? Why you think this is Neidan?

25 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Why not just do Nei Dan and find out for yourself instead of quoting theories and making hypotheticals back and forth?

Thanks fot your advice but I tought this is Damo' related thread and people discuss his methods 

 

[Wilhelm]

30 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Well... I imagine we could go back and forth for a while longer, but I'm tired of talking about this Antares.  I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Wilhelm

[forestofemptiness]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

If we do not  have methods and theories from authentic lineage many people would think he is genuine teacher.

 

You're right, he is a definitely a fraud. Avoid, avoid! 

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

You're right, he is a definitely a fraud. Avoid, avoid! 

Well, I do not say Damo is a fraud. But the person I mentioned was proved to be fraud. 

As for Damo here could be another story. Sometime Chinese masters give qigong saying that they give you Neidan. They do that for the purpose to check person. 

[forestofemptiness]

42 minutes ago, Antares said:

Well, I do not say Damo is a fraud. But the person I mentioned was proved to be fraud. 

As for Damo here could be another story. Sometime Chinese masters give qigong saying that they give you Neidan. They do that for the purpose to check person. 

 

Damo appears to distinguish fairly clearly between qigong, neigong, and neidan, but whether you agree would depend on your own definitions. At the end of the day, there is no guarantee, and even if the teaching is authentic, it doesn't mean it will work for any given person (usually depending on how capable we are of understanding and following directions). But there are plenty of teachers out there, and there is a fair degree of freedom to make choices.  

 

[Antares]

17 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

But there are plenty of teachers out there, and there is a fair degree of freedom to make choices.  

Choice should be based on knowledge of the Tradition you want to be involved in. Of course, it is not possible to comprehend all nuances from the scratch but  individual should understand basics at least.  Daoist Tradition is still very closed and there are many frauds in China and in the West. Go to Shaolin and ask them for teaching. Dozens of "masters" will give you "offers". If someone gives you some techniques it does not mean you practise Neidan. A friend of mine has been living in China for 10 years, he is fluent in Chinese and had been searching masters all these years and he met frauds only. He trained in Shaolin and many other places. What they can give you with no problems is "northern" method based on meditations. But this is not authentic northern method. But Damo represents it as Neidan. Good marketing though. 

[Creation]

7 hours ago, Antares said:

But what are the methods he teaches that work with Yuan Qi? Why you think this is Neidan?

I hope it's OK for me to say this here, since I don't know if it's in any of his books or public lectures, but it's a pretty general thing to say, and you keep asking about it: In my limited understanding, the foundational process of forming and filling the dantian is working with post-heaven qi, while access to pre-heaven qi requires pre-heaven mind, as such comes later.  The idea that you can work with yuan qi straight away seems quite suspect to me. 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

I hope it's OK for me to say this here, since I don't know if it's in any of his books or public lectures, but it's a pretty general thing to say, and you keep asking about it: In my limited understanding, the foundational process of forming and filling the dantian is working with post-heaven qi, while access to pre-heaven qi requires pre-heaven mind, as such comes later.  The idea that you can work with yuan qi straight away seems quite suspect to me. 

 

In WuLiu the very basic preparatory exercise is based on Yuan Qi flow. And what people need to do is do nothing but relax

Edited March 30, 2021 by Antares