Does energy cultivation itself bring about or facilitate Buddhist enlightenment?

[Apech]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I don't think this is a view shared in the Nyingma Dzogchen realm, as revealed by my teachers. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche considers external renunciation as a Sutra level approach, and has written plainly:

 

Dzogchen, The Self Perfected State p.33. 

 

Cortland Dahl, a senior student of Mingyur Rinpoche, concurs:

 

 

The Nine Yanas, https://learning.tergar.org/2011/11/18/the-nine-yanas/

 

In addition, there are many root tantras and instructions given to Kings and Queens who were not in a position for external renunciation, which is one of the mythical reasons the Tantras were taught. 

 

Of course, many Nyingma lamas made their living in old Tibet performing worldly rituals, and often did/do so for themselves. A Step Away from Paradise is a good oral history on this front. Not to mention that Yuthok Nyingthig was developed for lay doctors not only to develop spiritual enlightenment, but to make them better physicians. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I had in mind:

 

https://themindsjournal.com/the-eight-worldly-dharmas/

 

I don't know about Dzogchen ... but I guess at a higher level you could say its about letting go of dualistic perceptions.

[forestofemptiness]

I would be curious to hear what you find to be the experiential difference between the two states. Might be a different topic, though. 

 

On 1/13/2021 at 8:03 AM, dwai said:

When I finally met my master, he did what could be considered a shaktipat/transmission to me, and that sent me into a 15-day samādhi of sorts -- in an ecstatic state while fully functional and the separation between the witness consciousness and the mind/body became permanent.

 

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I would be curious to hear what you find to be the experiential difference between the two states. Might be a different topic, though. 

 

Which two states? The witness consciousness and the thinking mind? 

[stirling]

23 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

Could this be why most zen schools completely drop jhana practice? It's rather ironic because if I'm not mistaken zen means dhyana.

 

In Soto Zen (the school I currently work in) jhana is taught and used, if there is an inclination toward it. However, the jhanas are merely "states" of mind, not seeing into any deeper insight. They are LIKE deeper insights, not the actual experience of them, so can be considered an impediment, or attachment. Zazen is an open awareness, technique-free meditation discipline, like Dzogchen, and, practiced correctly, is free of all delusions or attachments. It is literally actualizing enlightenment, though without the realization that accompanies enlightenment. 

[stirling]

On 1/13/2021 at 4:18 PM, dmattwads said:

In the past I would spend hours upon hours doing Anapansatti meditation and it dug up so much crap I thought I was going to loose my marbles. In the last year or so I have become somewhat disillusioned with the Theravada path somewhat and have been doing a lot of reevaluation. 

 

Digging up your attachment and aversion is precisely what meditation SHOULD do. You are attempting to disabuse you mind of the mistaken idea that it is a "self' and all of the attachment and aversion that CAUSES that your suffering. Your meditation was actually WORKING. It creates space for that stuff to come up, and to process it. You can use your meditation to process that crap (or gold!)  in a far less painful way. Having support from a teacher or counselor to process that stuff is highly recommended. 

[stirling]

22 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

 

I'm trying to see if Buddhist teachings can be made more simple,  more applicable, more effective and more accessible for us today without losing the essence and importance of what Shakyamuni Buddha was trying to communicate to us over 2,500 years ago.

 

Definitely.

 

You struggle because of your craving or aversion around remembered past or projected future events. This is because you are operating from a mistaken idea about who or what you are. You believe in a "self" that is an illusory construct of the mind that causes you to struggle with the realities of your life. It is possible to have insight that dispels this misunderstanding. This is accomplished by working on shifting to right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi. 

 

This is the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold path. That's it! Its easy to get lost in which practices etc. but the variations aren't that important. Meditation-wise, learning to meditate with the breath, then dropping that for samadhi is all that is necessary. Truly anyone can do it - but few will. 

 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

... in the Great Perfection, renunciation means to leave behind all dualistic perception and contrived spiritual effort.

 

 

Once understood, it truly doesn't get simpler than this.

[Maddie]

31 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Digging up your attachment and aversion is precisely what meditation SHOULD do. You are attempting to disabuse you mind of the mistaken idea that it is a "self' and all of the attachment and aversion that CAUSES that your suffering. Your meditation was actually WORKING. It creates space for that stuff to come up, and to process it. You can use your meditation to process that crap (or gold!)  in a far less painful way. Having support from a teacher or counselor to process that stuff is highly recommended. 

 

No argument there, I agree it was doing it's thing, but since I'm not a monk and still have to function in the world it was too much too fast.

[C T]

Without renunciation (to attachments) its impossible to enter the state of equipoise, which is another term for 'rigpa'. Equipoise is the balanced fruition of bodhicitta and renunciation. In Gateway to the Vajrayana Path, Rinpoche observed, “If renunciation and bodhicitta are absent, a person cannot sow the seeds of liberation even after nine years of Dzogchen retreat.” Commentary: We ought to reflect deeply on this statement: it is the most sublime Dzogchen that one spends not a few days or several months but nine years to practice; in terms of methodology, it is undertaken in retreat away from any contact with the world outside; despite this, one cannot sow the seeds of liberation because one does not have renunciation and bodhicitta. This should be enough of a warning. Without renunciation and bodhicitta, we may find ourselves in a position wherein the cause of liberation cannot be established even after nine years of Dzogchen practice! Thus, renunciation and bodhicitta are extremely important to any practitioner.

 

 

 

Its inner work mostly. Outwardly, nothing needs to be different, according to Patrul Rinpoche. 

 

"Transcendent renunciation is developed by meditating on the preciousness of human life in terms of the ocean of evolutionary possibilities, the immediacy of death, the inexorability of evolutionary causality, and the sufferings of the ignorance-driven, involuntary life cycle. Renunciation automatically occurs when you come face-to-face with your real existential situation, and so develop a genuine sympathy for yourself, having given up pretending the prison of habitual emotions and confusions is just fine. Meditating on the teachings given on these themes in a systematic way enables you to generate quickly an ambition to gain full control of your body and mind in order at least to face death confidently, knowing you can navigate safely through the dangers of further journeys. Wasting time investing your life in purposes that “you cannot take with you” becomes ludicrous, and, when you radically shift your priorities, you feel a profound relief at unburdening yourself of a weight of worry over inconsequential things." ~ Padmasambhava 

[forestofemptiness]

Ha ha, so true!  

 

13 hours ago, stirling said:

Digging up your attachment and aversion is precisely what meditation SHOULD do. You are attempting to disabuse you mind of the mistaken idea that it is a "self' and all of the attachment and aversion that CAUSES that your suffering. Your meditation was actually WORKING. It creates space for that stuff to come up, and to process it.

 

This is consistent with how I learned this from Theravada teachers. It is interesting that your Soto school teaches jhana. Do you mind if I ask what tradition? 

 

13 hours ago, stirling said:

However, the jhanas are merely "states" of mind, not seeing into any deeper insight.

 

I misread your post--- my Buddhist prejudices are showing! I thought you wrote you permanently removed the separation between the witness consciousness and body/mind. Experientially, I have gone in the opposite direction--- the solidity and separateness diminishes, and the sense of a self/center/witness (which for me was primarily behind the eyes, then in the head, then in the body) tends to dissolve. 

 

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Which two states? The witness consciousness and the thinking mind? 

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I misread your post--- my Buddhist prejudices are showing! I thought you wrote you permanently removed the separation between the witness consciousness and body/mind. Experientially, I have gone in the opposite direction--- the solidity and separateness diminishes, and the sense of a self/center/witness (which for me was primarily behind the eyes, then in the head, then in the body) tends to dissolve. 

 

For me the "witness" was never in the body...but never not in the body either, if it makes sense. That's why it was so baffling when it manifested during the early days of Tai chi (after we shifted from the West Dundee class that you used to join us in @forestofemptiness). It was not possible for me to pin down a location. 

 

And, the separation disappeared for me too, but not right after that incident with Master. I guess I could label it as "extreme" detachment from the thinking mind/phenomena during that period -- but a total sense of bliss -- psychological, physical, and energetic, if that makes sense -- it stayed like that for about 18 months, and then I guess I got used to it.

 

Eventually, the realization came that the separation is only apparent -- the wave is always part of the ocean. 

[stirling]

16 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

No argument there, I agree it was doing it's thing, but since I'm not a monk and still have to function in the world it was too much too fast.

 

I understand how that could be. I'd recommend less concentrated meditation and connecting with a teacher who can help you to process and put into perspective what comes up. It's hard work, no doubt about it.

[stirling]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is consistent with how I learned this from Theravada teachers. It is interesting that your Soto school teaches jhana. Do you mind if I ask what tradition?

 

Soto is the school, founded by Dogen. I am in the Shunryu Suzuki lineage. Jhana isn't prescribed as primary practice, just optional. There are a few experts in the school you can seek out. The school is very open to exploring and adopting practices from other lineages. 

 

Quote

I misread your post--- my Buddhist prejudices are showing! I thought you wrote you permanently removed the separation between the witness consciousness and body/mind. Experientially, I have gone in the opposite direction--- the solidity and separateness diminishes, and the sense of a self/center/witness (which for me was primarily behind the eyes, then in the head, then in the body) tends to dissolve. 

 

I would say that I dissolved the "witness" consciousness. I also finally identified it as a visualized a "knot" and "pressure" behind my eyes that I "untied" one night while sitting - one of the few insight moments that have occurred on the cushion. It is no longer there. Now all sensations are not "I" or "mine", but arise and pass away where they are. Reality is experienced as centerless and self-less.

 

What traditions/schools do you work in?

Edited January 15, 2021 by stirling

[stirling]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

For me the "witness" was never in the body...but never not in the body either, if it makes sense. That's why it was so baffling when it manifested during the early days of Tai chi (after we shifted from the West Dundee class that you used to join us in @forestofemptiness). It was not possible for me to pin down a location. 

 

And, the separation disappeared for me too, but not right after that incident with Master. I guess I could label it as "extreme" detachment from the thinking mind/phenomena during that period -- but a total sense of bliss -- psychological, physical, and energetic, if that makes sense -- it stayed like that for about 18 months, and then I guess I got used to it.

 

Eventually, the realization came that the separation is only apparent -- the wave is always part of the ocean. 

 

Is your primary practice Tai Chi? That is where I started, aged 17. I still have great respect for it... could even see myself coming back to it as a body movement adjunct.

Edited January 15, 2021 by stirling

[dwai]

Just now, stirling said:

 

Is your primary practice Tai Chi? Ironically, that is where I started, aged 17.

It used to be -- and I still practice it every day, but for enjoyment and to learn some of the more "esoteric" capabilities (fun) it offers. If I have a primary practice anymore, it is in letting go. 

[stirling]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

It used to be -- and I still practice it every day, but for enjoyment and to learn some of the more "esoteric" capabilities (fun) it offers. If I have a primary practice anymore, it is in letting go. 

 

Surrender - of ideas, of opinions, of clinging, of muscle tension... to what is really happening - this is probably one of the highest, and simplest paths, no doubt about it.

[forestofemptiness]

The experiential study of identification and non-identification is an interesting one for me. My path is certainly more gradual overall. 

 

My main issue is that I had a strong connection with awareness as a kid, and when I heard all these fancy words I assumed it could not be the same thing. It seemed too simple, too obvious. Then once I got on the right track, I found all these reifications that needed to be dissolved. 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

For me the "witness" was never in the body...but never not in the body either, if it makes sense. That's why it was so baffling when it manifested during the early days of Tai chi (after we shifted from the West Dundee class that you used to join us in @forestofemptiness). It was not possible for me to pin down a location. 

 

And, the separation disappeared for me too, but not right after that incident with Master. I guess I could label it as "extreme" detachment from the thinking mind/phenomena during that period -- but a total sense of bliss -- psychological, physical, and energetic, if that makes sense -- it stayed like that for about 18 months, and then I guess I got used to it.

 

Eventually, the realization came that the separation is only apparent -- the wave is always part of the ocean. 

 

I don't consider myself a good representative of my schools, but I have worked through the dharma wheel from Theravada (Bhavana Society), Zen (I did some Soto in the Katagiri lineage), and Dzogchen (various), spending about 5-6 years on each. My favorite practice is probably dream yoga, which really took off once I met Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.  I also dabble in various Daoist arts, but even more inconsistently. 

 

I get the knot behind the eyes, I had a similar experience off the cushion. But as I said, then there was a sense in the center of the head, in the body, etc. Sadly it is not a "one and done" for me, as my ignorance is vast, my grasping is very pernicious, and I am quite lazy. It all seems to be unfolding in its own time, though. 

 

48 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Soto is the school, founded by Dogen. I am in the Shunryu Suzuki lineage. Jhana isn't prescribed as primary practice, just optional. There are a few experts in the school you can seek out. The school is very open to exploring and adopting practices from other lineages. 

 

 

I would say that I dissolved the "witness" consciousness. I also finally identified it as a visualized a "knot" and "pressure" behind my eyes that I "untied" one night while sitting - one of the few insight moments that have occurred on the cushion. It is no longer there. Now all sensations are not "I" or "mine", but arise and pass away where they are. Reality is experienced as centerless and self-less.

 

What traditions/schools do you work in?

 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

The experiential study of identification and non-identification is an interesting one for me. My path is certainly more gradual overall. 
 

I think that’s the case for most of us, until it isn’t anymore  

Quote

 

My main issue is that I had a strong connection with awareness as a kid, and when I heard all these fancy words I assumed it could not be the same thing. It seemed too simple, too obvious. Then once I got on the right track, I found all these reifications that needed to be dissolved. 

 

I distinctly remember having a conversation with you in George’s west Dundee class back in 2005/6 about the subject-object conundrum. I think you had mentioned to me about subject-object duality, and I responded “there is none...they’re the same” and you said, “oh but that’s for later”...

 

I don’t know why I remember that, but I do  

 

I can relate to what you wrote about that direct connection vis-a-vis awareness, it is so simple that we can’t believe that it is what everyone is making such brouhaha about...which is why I feel that knowledge is needed to shape and direct the practice. Otherwise, we end up getting caught in labels and intellectual musings (and methods)...

 

For me, the “breakthrough” came while skeptically watching a Papaji satsang video, where one of his students sits in front of him, and Papaji asks, “can you tell me who you are, in an instant, without thinking?” 
 

I watched incredulously, as the student broke down, sobbing, sat for a while next to Papaji, got up and walked away. 
 

That question stuck with me, and for the longest time, I felt it was a trick question — I would sit with it for long periods of time, for several days, trying to understand it. All I got was silence and a feeling of “duh!” 😂

 

And then one day, it dawned upon me, what he was pointing at. 
 

Doesn’t Lao Tzu say in the DDJ — the dao that can be named is not the real dao?

 

Funny though, it was “Daoism” that helped me gain initial understanding of vedānta, and later it was vedānta that helped me realize what Daoism points to... 

Edited January 15, 2021 by dwai