What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, Sketch said:

The main strategy for catching the big ones around here in the Columbia basin is the hog line...a group of small flat boats anchored side by side, stabilized by ropes to one another, in strong current. Seventeen to twenty five feet deep near the Falls? There abouts. The community spirit can be quite high; bitter rivalry and deep friendships. The chinook salmon are a great fish too. 

 

Thats sounds interesting and fun .

 

Here is one from  my area  .... an old historical account , supposedly demonstrating the idea that Aboriginals are lazy ;

 

" I came upon this  one lying on the grass by a stream . he had made the stream narrow by placing rocks and sticks in it and weaving a  narrow chase which any fish travelling up the stream must pass through . next to this he had embedded a long flexible stick in the ground with its end bent over and had attached a noose and tied it down with a trip knot .  A fish would enter the narrow gap, put its head through the noose and then feel it, try to back out and snare its gills and twit and flip. This would release the knot and the bent over stick would fly upwards, over his head, flipping the fish up onto the bank and releasing it . he would then bend the stick over  and re set the knot and go back to lying down as the numbers of fish up on the bank  increased . "

 

Now thats 'lazy '  .... not at all like your industrious and busy western fisherman

 

 

 

[Sketch]

I've fished flies and roostertails in places where it was running along those lines.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[EmeraldHead]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Well this is the first time I have any understanding of why you include Buddhism in your view 🙂

Possible off-topic but I want to clarify

 

I assume everyone here would agree that what freeform mentioned as "Xian (mmortal)" earlier on requires the mind-made body - yangshen fetus ? aka that mind-made yangshen in the real 'spiritual' world is what becomes immortal/makes one Xian?

 

I mean... freeform, hope you don't mind that I'm picking on you, but some examples you gave in this thread as part of the conversation, makes it seem like one HAS to achieve specific hardcore body gong in order to then become immortal that no longer has a need for a body again (reincarnation). What do the teachings you know of say? Is there a relation?

Edited January 5, 2021 by EmeraldHead

[Sketch]

I can't even assume everyone  here has read Lao Tzu  or Zhuangzi so that seems like a lot.

 

Or Kerouac's "Dharma Bums" for that matter.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Sketch

[C T]

4 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

The Buddha was held to be omnipotent in the same way, as I believe, @freeform was using the word omnipotent for the Enlightened being he met. Ie. being capable of everything that one can be capable of within the laws of reality. Having all powers and higher capacities and so on. The Buddha was held to have had all the powers that a being of any sort could ever have, there were no limitations on his power other than the laws of reality(not the laws that we understand necessarily). Frankly I think some of the later Mahayana sutras imagine his powers to be a little ridiculous (being able to put entire universes into each pore of his body is one such example...), the earlier texts give a little more sensible description, even if it's still astounding and more or less fits the description of omnipotent to all intents and purposes, but who am I to say.

"

1. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one.
2. He appears. He vanishes.
3. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space.
4. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water.
5. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land.
6. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird.
7. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful.
8. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

"

...and many more are listed as well.

But if I misunderstand his meaning I'd be eager to learn more.

 

You're free to believe what you will. 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Enlightenment is to GO BEYOND suffering  .....   when one is  ON THE PATH  TO   enlightenment , yes, one suffers .

 

But suffering is  not PART OF  enlightenment .    That's the whole point of it .  .....  

 

Good morning Nun,

 

I am inclining to think of enlightenment as a path (journey) and not a destination.

 

Along the path we suffer ~ but we learn from it to be better... going forward.

 

I am thinking of suffering in relation to these...

 

 

G'day mate.

 

- Anand

 

 

[rainbowvein]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:12 PM, Wilhelm said:

How does your tradition protect you from deluding yourself, or being deluded by others?

 

Most every tradition has blind spots that their practitioners cannot see. The sages and adepts of the traditions will have similar blind spots, no matter their claims or level of enlightenment.

 

A tradition does not protect one from deluding oneself. (I have been deluded myself at times.)

 

A tradition is a way to delude oneself, unluckily.

[Limahong]

21 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

Most every tradition has blind spots that their practitioners cannot see. The sages and adepts of the traditions will have similar blind spots, no matter their claims or level of enlightenment.

 

A tradition does not protect one from deluding oneself. (I have been deluded myself at times.)

 

A tradition is a way to delude oneself, unluckily.

 

Hi rainbowvein,

 

Being aware of it thus is protection itself?

Self protection?

 

- Anand

 

[rainbowvein]

No.

 

Better to hang with nature, the sun, the rain and the rainbows!

[steve]

On 1/4/2021 at 2:12 PM, Wilhelm said:

1. How does your tradition protect you from deluding yourself, or being deluded by others?

 

Most importantly by teaching me it is my responsibility to develop absolute certainty in what it is to be deluded and what it is to be free of delusions. I then at least know the direction to go in. Staying there always in waking, sleep, dream, and death is then up to me and my karma.

 

By encouraging us to make a ngöndro a lifetime path. Ngöndro is what differentiates delusion from non-delusion.

 

Through the example set by our teachers and the stories of masters of our tradition. The attainments and the humility.

 

Through the teachings. Every major teaching I’ve attended and studied had admonitions regarding arrogance and narcissism, ignorance, and related delusions.

 

Through the practice itself. This is the connection to non-delusion. The view/practice/actions/fruition are undifferentiated and must be precise. Through recognizing, continuing, returning... And through the cultivation needed to stabilize. 

 

 

On 1/4/2021 at 2:12 PM, Wilhelm said:

2. if I were to tell you that I had achieved enlightenment according to the definition provided by your tradition (to be clear, I'm not actually claiming this), how would you know if I was full of shit or not?

 

I wouldn’t make it my project. 

 

Your attainment is yours alone and

my own is all I can influence. I don’t need yours as a reference point so there is nothing more to be said or done. Having certainty in my own view is all that is necessary.

 

On 1/4/2021 at 2:12 PM, Wilhelm said:

3. Is this something that's possible to discern over a forum, or would a practical demonstration be required?  

 

It cannot be discerned via forum,

it cannot be proven by quorum,

nor judged by sly practitioners,

even on the holy day of Purim!

 

So worry not of others’ minds dear One,

though hold them in your warm embrace.

I will return when you’re still enough to have me,

... and if you don’t come easy,

I may need smack your face.

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Good morning Nun,

 

I am inclining to think of enlightenment as a path (journey) and not a destination.

 

Along the path we suffer ~ but we learn from it to be better... going forward.

 

I am thinking of suffering in relation to these...

 

 

G'day mate.

 

- Anand

 

 

 

 

 

I am inclining to think of enlightenment as a state and not a destination .

 

I am also inclined to think of the path to enlightenment as  ...... the path     to       enlightenment .

 

 Also they are the same  4 sufferings I was considering .

 

But we don't have to suffer along the path

 

Let's look at the 4th one  ;   ' the end  of suffering is contained in the eight-fold path '

[Piyadasi]

9 hours ago, C T said:

You're free to believe what you will. 

So are we all   You quoted the texts, so I thought you might be interested to see your position was not actually supported by them.

[C T]

30 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

So are we all   You quoted the texts, so I thought you might be interested to see your position was not actually supported by them.

 

My position is of no relevance, its what the Sutta points to that's relevant, but since you reject that as lacking substance, there's no point going further except to suggest, if you're so inclined, to check with sources you trust if Buddhist teachings adhere to the concept of buddhas' omnipotence. 

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

So are we all   You quoted the texts, so I thought you might be interested to see your position was not actually supported by them.

 

3 hours ago, C T said:

 

My position is of no relevance, its what the Sutta points to that's relevant, but since you reject that as lacking substance, there's no point going further except to suggest, if you're so inclined, to check with sources you trust if Buddhist teachings adhere to the concept of buddhas' omnipotence. 

 

From reading the sutta passage it would seem to indicate that while the Buddha is potent he is not omnipotent. 

 

There is more than of one example in the canon of the Buddha being asked a question to which he did not immediately know the answer which rules out omniscience, but after using his Buddha eye to look at it then he would know which does indeed show he had great power, but not omniscience.

 

To my knowledge the only beings that are supposed to be supposedly omnipotent and omniscient are a few of the monotheistic gods and Chuck Norris.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[Maddie]

The last statement in my previous post actually reminded me of something.

 

It was back when I was pondering enlightened versus unenlightened behavior that I realized that the monotheistic Creator God in the Abrahamic tradition was indeed not enlightened because he displayed characteristics like anger and jealousy and wrath and favoritism. Yet I had always been told since I was young that he was perfect, flawless, and without fault This was one of the primary factors that caused me to lose faith in the tradition in which I was raised.

[Piyadasi]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I don't want to really derail this thread anymore, but this is getting into a rather semantic debate. The various early schools already debated this ad nauseam. You might be familiar with the debates between the Vibhajyavadins, Sarvastivadins, Dharmaguptakas and the Mahasamghikas (and others), who all had different ideas about exactly how omnipotent/omniscient/transcendent or not the Buddha was. Debates such as, is the Buddha fully omniscient in every second, holding the knowledge of the entire universe in his mind or does he have to make an effort to access omniscient knowledge is not much interest to me. It is a little ridiculous to conjecture about a mind like that...

This is why I said practically omniscient and omnipotent, within the laws of reality. Which, if we go by the texts, he was undeniably held to be.

I have no further interest in this debate, this thread is about something else.

[Maddie]

49 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

I don't want to really derail this thread anymore, but this is getting into a rather semantic debate.

 

I just want to point out that I don't think discussing powers in an enlightenment thread is off topic due to the fact that many people equate enlightenment with powers and Powers with enlightenment.

 Additionally since I personally think seeking powers for powers sake leads one further away from enlightenment rather than towards it then I think the topic becomes very important.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dmattwads

[freeform]

13 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Possible off-topic but I want to clarify

 

I assume everyone here would agree that what freeform mentioned as "Xian (mmortal)" earlier on requires the mind-made body - yangshen fetus ? aka that mind-made yangshen in the real 'spiritual' world is what becomes immortal/makes one Xian?

 

I mean... freeform, hope you don't mind that I'm picking on you, but some examples you gave in this thread as part of the conversation, makes it seem like one HAS to achieve specific hardcore body gong in order to then become immortal that no longer has a need for a body again (reincarnation). What do the teachings you know of say? Is there a relation?

 

I'm gonna waffle on - and you'll have to tell me if I manage to answer your question or not

 

There are several layers to this question (if I understand it correctly)...

 

One aspect is on the loftier side...

 

And that's to do with what growth or development is for you as your primordial spirit.

 

As far as I understand there's a major aspect of development that's not possible for a spirit (even a Deity) in the heavenly realms. It's only possible to work on your ming and karmic ties on the earthly realm.

 

So in that sense incarnating into physical form is an absolute necessity for spiritual development (from the vantage point of your primordial self)

 

This is why you can essentially become an exalted being like a living deity - ascend to the heavenly realms but then still have to return to physicality (however many thousands of years later) to work out any remaining karma.

 

Hopefully that paints a picture why (at least from the Daoist perspective) working with Ming and the body is absolutely crucial.

 

----

 

On a more mundane level - in reality the hardcore 'body gong' is actually a very small portion of the path... It takes maybe 3 to 10 years of working directly with the body - which might seem long - but in the context of a lifetime's practice - it's just a blip.

 

In fact traditionally it took much less time - partly because people were physically more robust in the past - and partly because they were put through arduous full time daily training - not sparing the student's sense of comfort or tolerance for 'growing pains'... (I give the example of one of the Yang family guys attempting to run away from home several times - even attempting suicide because the training was so grueling)

 

But these days - if you still have a 'normal life' and train hard, but part time - it'll take about 3 years to prepare the physical foundation.

 

From then on you're mostly working on the level of Qi.

 

All the physical transformations (such as a the 'cinnebar field as firm as a stone') is the result of working with Qi and Jing - not really with the body.

 

Similarly many of the physical changes later down the line (for instance changes in head shape, the amrita, and other weird and wonderful stuff) happens as a byproduct of working on the consciousness level primarily (though Qi is always involved - from beginning to the 'end')

 

----

 

Regarding attaining the various bodies, as per @Bindi's quote.

 

The way Jhannic methods work and the way Tantric (Daoist) methods work actually achieve the same thing but come at it from two distinct directions.

 

The main principle of the spiritual path, in essence, is the absorption of one's consciousness into the next, 'higher body'.

 

The jhannic systems develop concentration to a very high level... It's like developing your level of focus to such a high degree that you're able to zero in on and then absorb fully into your energy body... over time in that state of absorption, the higher body is built.

 

In the alchemical Daoist systems you go a slightly different route - you generate such a dense, thick energy body, that your consciousness effortlessly gravitates to it and absorbs on its own - just like an apple gravitates to the ground.

 

Different traditions work slightly differently - and certain Daoist lines will work from both directions at the same time - they'll develop both the concentration and the energy body (xing-ming) - this is generally the more northern alchemical traditions that make use of meditative practice heavily.

 

In essence they create an energy body that is thick and dense enough for your meditative concentration to easily use it as its point of concentration. This is a methodology that's somewhat safer and more available to a 'householder'.

 

The more Ming-dominant lines are very dangerous, and only available to the gifted few - and only when given the very secretive methods and overseen by a gifted teacher...

 

Similarly the Jhannic Xing-dominant traditions are open to the very gifted who have both strong Qi and natural capability of deep absorption - and they also require complete isolation and full-time retreat (effectively for life). The ones who do well are generally already 'stream enterers' from past lives.

 

Even in the xing-ming traditions, the amount of Qi one has to develop is extraordinary... most people have subtly sensed Qi to some extent - well they have to generate their Qi body to such a density that it feels as real as your physical body... so that you can focus on the light of your Qi body to the same extent as your physical hand for instance.

 

Once you've generated your Qi body... you use that body to generate even more Qi that is more refined - and that helps to create the next body that we then absorb into and develop... and in this way we leapfrog from one body to another. There are 7 such bodies in my tradition.

 

So in essence - we always work on the body that our consciousness resides in...

 

Now I explained this in simple terms...

 

But of course each stage requires a whole lot of work - and it's a very difficult endeavour. Even though I've spent long periods of full time practice on this, have the right methods, guided by amazing teachers, dedicated all I can to it, I've only just managed to glimpse absorption into the first energy body a few times (on retreat, with lots of assistance).

 

----

 

All the siddhi effectively come as a byproduct of inhabiting these bodies progressively...

 

I've seen a Yogi who managed to develop the skill of being able to suck in liquids through his penis... He'd perform this to spectators... the big crowd-pleaser was when he'd suck in kerosene, then squeeze it out and set it alight. Now that was a sight to behold

 

That's not the kind of Siddhi I'm talking about

 

It's kind of like we all have the 'siddhi' of being able to instantly communicate to pretty much anyone on earth - simply as a byproduct of having a phone.

 

Meaning these aren't 'superpowers' - they're simply the result of having a different 'body'... just as an incredible sense of smell is not a superpower for a dog - because that's just what their nose is capable of.

 

Testing for these siddhi is one way to confirm your progress. (phew! managed to loop my waffling back to discernment somehow! )

 

But discernment is tricky... because when I started this path, I was very scientifically minded - if someone told me 'I saw this teacher dematerialise in front of me' - I would've thought 'you poor fool' - and would certainly have avoided anything to do with that sort of school.

[Wilhelm]

Cool and unexpected discussion!  Apologies for un-derailing (re-railing?), I'm just going to respond to a few people again.  The post got a bit long so I'm @ ing folks, hope you all don't mind!

 

23 hours ago, dwai said:

Good question. If you are sensitive (ie have the ability to discern between different energetic qualities), you can sense what kind of energy an individual is generating.

 

@dwai, thank you.  I'm going to be looking into this today and will update the post with a proper response.

 

22 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

I had trouble trusting in my gut initially as well. Before getting into constant samadhi, it can be quite challenging to fully "get" what your gut howls about. One way that I used to train it was something I found in a book called "DIY Magic". It's a small trick, and it goes as follows: 

Thanks for the tips!

 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

Regarding discernment... maybe of something a little less lofty than enlightenment - but just a clear marker along the path...

@freeform Thank you very much!  This is also how I have been told progression is measured in what I am studying.  In your examples, discernment is almost taken out of the equation and left up to the seniors who understand the signs of progress - but what about discernment as it relates to self-inquiry?  Although maybe not central to such a 'tangible' path, it would seem to me that building a quality of sorting 'useful' from 'not-useful' would certainly make the practice of meditation more efficient (especially when the mentally oriented practices might not as many tangible signs of progress, at least initially)!

 

20 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

20 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

 

Thanks for the information freeform, and the video dmattwads!  If anyone is interested, Damo Mitchell just posted a talk discussion the implications of several levels of enlightenment from his own experience.  The whole talk is great but skip to 47 minutes for that topic.

 

 

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

@NungaliWoah!  I've never heard of anything that well organized from a Western system! (though my experience there is super limited) That's all really interesting.  Is there a public resource I could learn more about it?

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

Most importantly by teaching me it is my responsibility to develop absolute certainty in what it is to be deluded and what it is to be free of delusions. I then at least know the direction to go in. Staying there always in waking, sleep, dream, and death is then up to me and my karma.

 

By encouraging us to make a ngöndro a lifetime path. Ngöndro is what differentiates delusion from non-delusion.

 

Through the example set by our teachers and the stories of masters of our tradition. The attainments and the humility.

 

Through the teachings. Every major teaching I’ve attended and studied had admonitions regarding arrogance and narcissism, ignorance, and related delusions.

 

Through the practice itself. This is the connection to non-delusion. The view/practice/actions/fruition are undifferentiated and must be precise. Through recognizing, continuing, returning... And through the cultivation needed to stabilize. 

Thanks for sharing your practical experience!

Edited January 6, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Maddie]

What is the definition of...

Xing?

Ming?

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Cool and unexpected discussion!  Apologies for un-derailing (re-railing?), I'm just going to respond to a few people again.  The post got a bit long so I'm @ ing folks, hope you all don't mind!

 

 

@dwai, thank you.  I'm going to be looking into this today and will update the post with a proper response.

 

Thanks for the tips!

 

@freeform Thank you very much!  This is also how I have been told progression is measured in what I am studying.  In your examples, discernment is almost taken out of the question and left up to the seniors who understand the signs of progress - but what about discernment as it relates to self-inquiry?  Although maybe not central to such a 'tangible' path, it would seem to me that building a quality of sorting 'useful' from 'not-useful' would certainly make the practice more efficient!

 

 

 

Thanks for the information freeform, and the video dmattwads!  If anyone is interested, Damo Mitchell just posted a talk discussion the implications of several levels of enlightenment from his own experience.  The whole talk is great but skip to 47 minutes for that topic.

 

 

@NungaliWoah!  I've never heard of anything that well organized from a Western system! (though my experience there is super limited) That's all really interesting.  Is there a public resource I could learn more about it?

Thanks for sharing your practical experience!

That meditation vs qigong video popped up on my radar last evening, so I watched it. I enjoyed quite a bit of it.  However, he is quite incorrect (imho)  in the “cycle” of awakening vs enlightenment vs immortality presented. Awakening/enlightenment is the way out of the cycle of rebirths, though I understand when he says immortality is a graduation ceremony to the higher heavens. 
 

What he proposes is what we call “krama mukti” in Hindu traditions — it is a gradual process, sort of like graduation at different levels of education. It is thoroughly rejected as being the only way,  by the wisdom schools such as Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta - which is why the non dual systems are called the “Direct Path” — if you know your true nature, you can bypass all the stuff.
 

BTW even if one becomes an immortal in a higher heaven as a deity, they would still need to come back to what is called a “karma bhumi” (realm of action) in order gain liberation.

Edited January 6, 2021 by dwai

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

That meditation vs qigong video popped up on my radar last evening, so I watched it. I enjoyed quite a bit of it.  However, he is quite incorrect (imho)  in the “cycle” of awakening vs enlightenment vs immortality presented. Awakening/enlightenment is the way out of the cycle of rebirths, though I understand when he says immortality is a graduation ceremony to the higher heavens. 
 

What he proposes is what we call “krama mukti” in Hindu traditions — it is a gradual process, sort of like graduation at different levels of education. It is thoroughly rejected by the wisdom schools such as Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta. 

I can see why that would be a hot topic of debate.  Its all philosophy for me at this point, one way or the other.  I just do the practice, and try to adopt the mindset of the people who originated it.

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I can see why that would be a hot topic of debate.  Its all philosophy for me at this point, one way or the other.  I just do the practice, and try to adopt the mindset of the people who originated it.

Yes of course, so it is for all of us as we set upon the (eventually pathless) path. 

[Wilhelm]

8 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

What is the definition of...

Xing?

Ming?

Now THATS a quality thread derailment 

[Maddie]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Now THATS a quality thread derailment 

 

Oh jeez yeah I suppose that is 😶💩