We have a vaccine!

[sagebrush]

43 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Your PPD   ?

 

That selection of  untitled posts  with no subject matter and no content because you edited it all away ?

 

No thanks .

 

Well this is side tracking from the vaccine but I will responds accordingly.

I will do so in my PPD so as to not distract from the vaccine thread. 

 

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Toni said:

A 41 years old woman dies in portugal 2 days after the vaccine. She didn't have covid nor any previous disease

 

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/sociedad/2021/01/03/portugal-investiga-auxiliar-41-anos-fallecio-muerte-subita-dos-dias-despues-vacunarse/00031609691749649635697.htm

 

I think it's fair to say, and maybe @steve will confirm, that all vaccines and indeed many medical treatments have their own risks.  We already know that there can be allergic reactions to the pfizer vaccine and so on.  Generally I suppose we have to accept that we stand between two risky situations and have to evaluate which has the lesser risk and therefore is the best course of action.  So I don't think we should react too extremely to these kinds of stories but I am sure the medics will determine why she died and inform their strategy accordingly.

 

I don't particularly trust big pharma but I do instinctively trust doctors to do the right thing by us.

[ralis]

Ingredients of COVID-19 vaccine. The quote is from the FDA site.

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/12/09/1013538/what-are-the-ingredients-of-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine/

 

Quote

0. WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS IN THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?

   The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.

 

[steve]

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think it's fair to say, and maybe @steve will confirm, that all vaccines and indeed many medical treatments have their own risks. 

 

Absolutely

Each of us must weigh the risks and benefits for themselves and make the best choice possible. 

[RobB]

One of the issues for Government of any mass-medication programme is that a non-zero percentage of people will have an adverse reaction. It's a cost-benefit decision. I wasn't happy about the proposed UK approach to Swine flu vaccine as I didn't think the flu risk was clear. I'm OK with the idea of mass vaccination for COVID.

[ralis]

30 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Absolutely

Each of us must weigh the risks and benefits for themselves and make the best choice possible. 

For themselves? As seen with Johns Hopkins viral spread analysis, one person can infect thousands. E.g. the Sturgis motorcycle rally was responsible for thousands of infections from a few. 
 

Are you positing a libertarian point of view? If so, I oppose ideological points of view that lean heavily on Social Darwinism’s survival of the fittest which has been refuted by E.O. Wilson et, al. Species survive as a group or more precisely, biological altruism. Mandatory vaccinations for all with very few exceptions. 

[Apech]

25 minutes ago, ralis said:

For themselves? As seen with Johns Hopkins viral spread analysis, one person can infect thousands. E.g. the Sturgis motorcycle rally was responsible for thousands of infections from a few. 
 

Are you positing a libertarian point of view? If so, I oppose ideological points of view that lean heavily on Social Darwinism’s survival of the fittest which has been refuted by E.O. Wilson et, al. Species survive as a group or more precisely, biological altruism. Mandatory vaccinations for all with very few exceptions. 

 

You only need a high percentage of people to vaccinate - maybe 75% or something like that - as long as you get this there is no need to enforce compulsory vaccination especially on people who may have religious or ethical objections.  Anything else would be authoritarian.

 

 

[steve]

29 minutes ago, ralis said:

For themselves? As seen with Johns Hopkins viral spread analysis, one person can infect thousands. E.g. the Sturgis motorcycle rally was responsible for thousands of infections from a few. 

And there is no evidence that the existing vaccines reduce transmission.

 

Quote

Are you positing a libertarian point of view?

No, just my own.

 

Quote

If so, I oppose ideological points of view that lean heavily on Social Darwinism’s survival of the fittest which has been refuted by E.O. Wilson et, al. Species survive as a group or more precisely, biological altruism. Mandatory vaccinations for all with very few exceptions. 

 

[liminal_luke]

27 minutes ago, ralis said:

 Mandatory vaccinations for all with very few exceptions. 

 

You would make refusing vaccination a criminal act punishable by...fines? jail time?

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

You only need a high percentage of people to vaccinate - maybe 75% or something like that - as long as you get this there is no need to enforce compulsory vaccination especially on people who may have religious or ethical objections.  Anything else would be authoritarian.

 

 

 

Getting to that number may be the problem. Anti vaccine propaganda and possible vaccine shortages.

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You would make refusing vaccination a criminal act punishable by...fines? jail time?

 

How many are supposed to die for weak minded fools that refuse a vaccine?

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Getting to that number may be the problem. Anti vaccine propaganda and possible vaccine shortages.

 

 

So called vaccine shortages are just the result of over-promising by governments who hyped up the vaccine - particularly in UK and US.  For instance my parents 96 years old had an a ppointment for vaccination cancelled because they 'ran out'.  It needs time and careful planning.  For instance they could target areas to 'cocoon' the cluster out breaks but instead they just go for mass vax on demand to certain age and risk groups.  It will work eventually but it will probably take 3 - 6 months.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Apech

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

How many are supposed to die for weak minded fools that refuse a vaccine?

 

I'm sorry but that is false logic.  person 'a' refusing to vaccinate does not cause person 'b' to die.  In one country (I can't remember where) they have said that refusers have to self isolate and cannot travel and so on.  So there are measures that can be taken to deal with this.

 

 

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So called vaccine shortages are just the result of over-promising by governments who hyped up the vaccine - particularly in UK and US.  For instance my parents 96 years old had an a ppointment for vaccination cancelled because they 'ran out'.  It needs time and careful planning.  For instance they could target areas to 'cocoon' the cluster out breaks but instead they just go for mass vax on demand to certain age and risk groups.  It will work eventually but it will probably take 3 - 6 months.

 

Here in the US, Pfizer offered Trump additional amounts over the 100 million does ordered last summer, Trump turned it down. Now at the current rate, it will take around 10 years to vaccinate the US population. Totally unacceptable.

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I'm sorry but that is false logic.  person 'a' refusing to vaccinate does not cause person 'b' to die.  In one country (I can't remember where) they have said that refusers have to self isolate and cannot travel and so on.  So there are measures that can be taken to deal with this.

 

 

 

Don't correct my logic! The anti vaccination propaganda is widespread as well as anti mask social distancing. The greater number of persons that aren't vaccinated or refuse to adhere to proper health guidelines, the greater number of deaths, which is proven here in this country with over 300k deaths. The virus spreads and that is a fact. 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Here in the US, Pfizer offered Trump additional amounts over the 100 million does ordered last summer, Trump turned it down. Now at the current rate, it will take around 10 years to vaccinate the US population. Totally unacceptable.

 

There are Pfizer shortages in Europe also - in fact the EU has been much slower to approve the vaccines.  This is again because of over promising.  the Moderna and Astrazenica versions should come on line soon - and although the Oxford/Astrazenica vaccine is less effective it is much cheaper, easier to manufacture and easier to store (normal refrigerator) and should distribute much more easily.

 

 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

Don't correct my logic! The anti vaccination propaganda is widespread as well as anti mask social distancing. The greater number of persons that aren't vaccinated or refuse to adhere to proper health guidelines, the greater number of deaths, which is proven here in this country with over 300k deaths. The virus spreads and that is a fact. 

 

I will post whatever comment I want subject to the site rules.

[ralis]

Just now, Apech said:

 

I will post whatever comment I want subject to the site rules.

 

So will I and I was correct!

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

There are Pfizer shortages in Europe also - in fact the EU has been much slower to approve the vaccines.  This is again because of over promising.  the Moderna and Astrazenica versions should come on line soon - and although the Oxford/Astrazenica vaccine is less effective it is much cheaper, easier to manufacture and easier to store (normal refrigerator) and should distribute much more easily.

 

 

 

In addition to deaths, there are any number of long and short term health problems with infected persons as well as asymptomatic persons. Cardiac inflammation, memory problems, loss of smell/taste, brain fog, loss of limbs etc.

 

Here in the US there have been mandatory vaccine programs, particularly in schools. E.g. smallpox and polio.

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

How many are supposed to die for weak minded fools that refuse a vaccine?

 

Some proportion of those who plan to refuse vaccination are pandemic deniers, Trumpists and sociopaths.  But there are also a few very smart cookies tucked in amongst the weak-minded fools.  In fact, I´ve had occasion to converse with an anti-vaccine genius or two.  Things are rarely so simple as I´d prefer.  While I tend to agree with you that our society would be better off if more people choose to be vaccinated, I´m not so sure of myself that I´m willing to impose my reasoning on others.  

[ilumairen]

27 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

How many are supposed to die for weak minded fools that refuse a vaccine?

i would presently refuse, at least until they work out what is causing the allergic reactions - owing, in part, to my own experience with allergic reactions having to deal with medications which appear largely safe for the rest of the population.

 

Nobody has died because of me yet.

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Some proportion of those who plan to refuse vaccination are pandemic deniers, Trumpists and sociopaths.  But there are also a few very smart cookies tucked in amongst the weak-minded fools.  In fact, I´ve had occasion to converse with an anti-vaccine genius or two.  Things are rarely so simple as I´d prefer.  While I tend to agree with you that our society would be better off if more people choose to be vaccinated, I´m not so sure of myself that I´m willing to impose my reasoning on others.  

 

By having a libertarian absolute freedom point of view, then how do most of us live? Public health is at issue and not freedom to do whatever one wants. Others rights supersede my rights and have the right to infect others with impunity?

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

i would presently refuse, at least until they work out what is causing the allergic reactions - owing, in part, to my own experience with allergic reactions having to deal with medications which appear largely safe for the rest of the population.

 

Nobody has died because of me yet.

 

I covered that in another post. There are exceptions for some that may have allergic reactions and I don't have a problem with that. Perhaps there will be an oral vaccine that has different components.

 

I don't know if you read my previous post a few pages ago, but I quoted the components of COVID-19 vaccine for public information.

[ilumairen]

Just now, ralis said:

 

I covered that in another post. There are exceptions for some that may have allergic reactions and I don't have a problem with that. Perhaps there will be an oral vaccine that has different components.

 

I don't know if you read my previous post a few pages ago, but I quoted the components of COVID-19 vaccine for public information.

My apologies; I have not been closely following this thread.

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

By having a libertarian absolute freedom point of view, then how do most of us live? Public health is at issue and not freedom to do whatever one wants. Others rights supersede my rights and have the right to infect others with impunity?

 

I don´t think anybody has the right to infect others with impunity.  But lets say, hypothetically, that the vaccine will cause a certain proportion of people to become infertile.  Do I have the right to impose that fate on someone who has done her own research and decided the risks aren´t worth it?  I know that you have a certain amount of biochemical expertise, ralis, and perhaps you´ve concluded that such concerns are silly.  But other equally knowledgable people have come to other conclusions.  

 

Almost everything we do effects other people.  As a society we´ve decided that heroin use and driving without a seatbelt are illegal.  Dominos pizza and bungee jumping, permitted.  The lines seem somewhat random to me.