Toni

Is somebody doing Tien Shan nei kung from starjumper (Steve Gray)?

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57 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

To be fair I am probably as much a fan-boy of Master Yeung as Steve is. He was the Monkey King in the flesh. Part unearthly skill, part encyclopedic knowledge and all heart. Perceptive, playful and generous. A True human being.

 

The Tian Shan is pretty weird to be honest. I didn't learn all of the supplementary exercises that I have seen when I glanced at Steve's videos (when I met Master Yeung I had already been training breathwork for a decade and had spent a year in China training Qigong maybe Master Yeung thought I would be ok without it). I just learned a long sequence were you lean back making a line from your knees to your head. There are series of arm gestures and some forward bends that are done very slowly... no... slower... slower... sloowweerrr... no, seriously... MUCH fucking slower. At normal movement speed the whole thing would take a couple of minutes but in practice it takes an hour. It is a glacial meditation of muscular discomfort and discipline that suddenly turns your perception inside out.

 

The last time I led a group through a half a rep (a bunch of curious Kungfu nerds at a conference) they all groaned about their abs for a while as we looked at the sky and suddenly we all experienced a collective perception of time compression as the clouds raced across the sky. It felt like about 15 minutes but it had been 35. Everyone agreed that they saw the clouds speed up. Did they? Was it group-think? Peer pressure? Hard to say, but I saw the time compression.

 

I am pragmatic. I like my martial arts practical, I keep my Qigong pretty basic. I teach Chinese medicine for a living and have some pretty strong opinions on what Chinese physical culture is and is not (one reason I never really post here). I am not, as one friend so eloquently said, a "white-light bunny." Still, if I want to push through the veil and fold time and space, then the Tian Shan is my jam.

 

Thanks for sharing, it's great to get another perspective. How much of the system would you say Steve has offered publicly?

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8 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

Toni, haha, trying to stir a pot?

 

 

Hi kevin,

 

Please stay a...

 

neon_mock_up_1-1.gif

 

Like what your friend has indicated...

 

you can illuminate the world...

 

... from your postings.

 

- Anand

 

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18 hours ago, dwai said:

I've heard references to Fook Yueng from other sources such as Adam Chan (who has a very practical and functional wing chun system). It seems Steve Smith, is a student of Fook Yueng (and assuming Steve Gray aka starjumper was his kungfu brother(?) under Fook Yeung). Steve Smith seems to have had a long standing collaboration with Jesse Glover (Bruce Lee's student) and is well known in the NA martial arts community (and are considered highly skilled practitioner). I've of course no first-hand info on any of them, but I've been following Adam Chan's stuff for a while and he is certainly a very skilled/mature martial artist - I find Adam's statements to be reliable on face value, given how good his kungfu is. 

 

With people who are relatively unknown, mostly what we will find are hagiographies, but this little article by Steve Smith seems to reveal much about the teacher --

 

https://thelittledojo.com/f/purpose-of-gung-fu

 

This article shows Bruce and Fook Yeung as having collaborated, and that Bruce did some "informal" studies with the latter.

 

http://bruceleelives.co.uk/bio2.html

 

 

 

This is an interesting subject so I do some research on it.  The writing gives an impression that Bruce mainly learned his skills from an uncle who was a Taoist wizard, who seemed to be located in the US.   But the research cannot justify this saying.

 

Bruce Lee learned 9 different Chinese martial arts with Wing Chun affected him most.  His Wing Chun was from the grand master Yip Man in Hong Kong from 12.  He practiced 7 years before reaching the US. 

 

 When he arrived in Seattle, there were 2 things very interesting. 

- He opened his own school Jan Fan National Skill dojo, 3 years after he arrived.

- He was accompanied by a master of northern fighting style (Jit Kuan), Siu Hong Sang, from HK to the US, who helped him in the skill and financially.

 

According to an articles outlining his 10 major masters/people enriched him, Fook Yueng was not there.

 

So if this Fook Yueng only met him in the US, when he already had substantial actual experiences, opened his own school, accompanied by a master, and did learn many other Chinese and Western and Japanese fighting skills, the uncle/main master saying is hard to believe.

 

Returning to the Tien Shan skill, which is Taoist.  I cannot see much trace of Taoist or inner martial arts in Bruce Lee.   His style is exactly the opposite.   And he died young means these life prolonging skills were not really for him.

 

 

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5 hours ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

Neijing there is a lot less imagination and more actual physicality than I see in modern discussions.

 

Probably the Mantak Chia effect. 

 

It is interesting to get a different perspective on the Tian Shan. Is it mostly a power generating? 

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6 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Thanks for sharing, it's great to get another perspective. How much of the system would you say Steve has offered publicly?

 

I have no idea really. I only ever glanced at his page. His posts that I read were all so passive-aggressive and defensive I couldn't help but feel that he missed something essential from Master Yeung, who wanted his students to learn to be kind. I am not saying Steve isn't kind, only that it seems that fear gets in his way a lot. I don't want just sh*t on Steve here, however there was also a supple quality in how Master Yeung moved (and all older adepts that I have known, Xu Gongwei, Yang Guotai, Chen Qiming, Xu Guoming, etc.) that I don't see in Steve. He may have the complete system lock stock and barrel. How much is integrated? I can't say.

 

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

This is an interesting subject so I do some research on it.  The writing gives an impression that Bruce mainly learned his skills from an uncle who was a Taoist wizard, who seemed to be located in the US.   But the research cannot justify this saying.

 

Yeah, that was Yeung Fook. It was he who cared for Bruce and acted as his landing pad in Seattle. There was no Master accompanying Bruce from HK, that was Master Yeung who had come to the US from HK. Master Yeung had Red Boat Wingchun as well as lots of other stuff (he had been sold the Red Boat Opera as a child), northen Shaolin, multiple man weapons forms, etc.. Being a non-Foshan style of Wingchun it would have been Bruce's introduction to Wingchun that wasn't orthodox figure 8 stance based. The early Jun-Fan/JKD footwork with from-back stance... Red Boat.

 

As I said above Master Yeung was acknowledged by Bruce's widow after he died as an important teacher who helped shape Bruce as a martial artist. Jessie Glover and Taky Kimura both acknowledged Master Yeung as a teacher of Bruce's and kept in touch with him. Any one with a solid background in Chinese martial arts who spent a couple of years with Yeung Fook would have been significantly influenced.

 

55 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

It is interesting to get a different perspective on the Tian Shan. Is it mostly a power generating? 

 

The power is mostly a side effect. There is a profound physicality to it, but it is more like a by-product of engaging the whole physical and mental self in the discipline. Your body struggles to survive the stress and discomfort, your mind reigns in it's lightning speed and has to concentrate intensely to keep the pace so slow. What it does in the end is change your perception. In a world of chaos and rapidity it broadens your ability to apprehend the pace of climate and weather and aspects of existence not available if you are rushing. 

 

There is lots of Daoist advice and admonitions to "stand in nature." The Tian Shan Qigong is a method of doing just that.

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1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is interesting to get a different perspective on the Tian Shan.

 

 

Different perspective from different perception?

 

th?id=OIP.8RO1f5D8dxKQwgFEkVxncAHaJb&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

 

So there's no one size that fits all?

 

- Anand

 

 

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6 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

I have no idea really. I only ever glanced at his page. His posts that I read were all so passive-aggressive and defensive I couldn't help but feel that he missed something essential from Master Yeung, who wanted his students to learn to be kind. I am not saying Steve isn't kind, only that it seems that fear gets in his way a lot. I don't want just sh*t on Steve here, however there was also a supple quality in how Master Yeung moved (and all older adepts that I have known, Xu Gongwei, Yang Guotai, Chen Qiming, Xu Guoming, etc.) that I don't see in Steve. He may have the complete system lock stock and barrel. How much is integrated? I can't say.

 

 

Yeah, that was Yeung Fook. It was he who cared for Bruce and acted as his landing pad in Seattle. There was no Master accompanying Bruce from HK, that was Master Yeung who had come to the US from HK. Master Yeung had Red Boat Wingchun as well as lots of other stuff (he had been sold the Red Boat Opera as a child), northen Shaolin, multiple man weapons forms, etc.. Being a non-Foshan style of Wingchun it would have been Bruce's introduction to Wingchun that wasn't orthodox figure 8 stance based. The early Jun-Fan/JKD footwork with from-back stance... Red Boat.

 

As I said above Master Yeung was acknowledged by Bruce's widow after he died as an important teacher who helped shape Bruce as a martial artist. Jessie Glover and Taky Kimura both acknowledged Master Yeung as a teacher of Bruce's and kept in touch with him. Any one with a solid background in Chinese martial arts who spent a couple of years with Yeung Fook would have been significantly influenced.

 

 

The power is mostly a side effect. There is a profound physicality to it, but it is more like a by-product of engaging the whole physical and mental self in the discipline. Your body struggles to survive the stress and discomfort, your mind reigns in it's lightning speed and has to concentrate intensely to keep the pace so slow. What it does in the end is change your perception. In a world of chaos and rapidity it broadens your ability to apprehend the pace of climate and weather and aspects of existence not available if you are rushing. 

 

There is lots of Daoist advice and admonitions to "stand in nature." The Tian Shan Qigong is a method of doing just that.

 

I am confused as to this gentleman Fook Yeung, as there are lots of references that his name is Fook Yueng.  And the same article can mention both spellings.  And what is the surname?   Fook or Yeung?   

 

For Tien Shan style, did Mr. Yeung (or Mr. Fook) imparted martial arts or Chi Kung into the US?   There is a Tien Shan Pai organisation in the US, seems purely Kung Fu. 

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9 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

There is lots of Daoist advice and admonitions to "stand in nature."

 

 

Agree.

 

But...

b88427d0a244472d80ba276e3d5796ec.gif

... is ONE with Nature?

 

If so ~ don't "stoop in nature"?

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I am confused as to this gentleman Fook Yeung, as there are lots of references that his name is Fook Yueng.  And the same article can mention both spellings.  And what is the surname?   Fook or Yeung?   

 

For Tien Shan style, did Mr. Yeung (or Mr. Fook) imparted martial arts or Chi Kung into the US?   There is a Tien Shan Pai organisation in the US, seems purely Kung Fu

 

His name was 杨福 Yang Fu in mandarin. Yang/Yeung is the surname, Fu/Fook was his given name.

 

The Tian Shan Qigong I learned from him was just one of the many things he knew. He was much more a martial arts teacher in practice. I have no idea if his Tian Shan is related to the Tian Shan Pai or not. When I first met him he was up here in Canada. Andy Dale brought him to a Taiji retreat and most of the attendees were not "fighty" at all. We were up here in the mountains and forest and that may be why he pulled it out.

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27 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Agree.

 

But...

b88427d0a244472d80ba276e3d5796ec.gif

... is ONE with Nature?

 

If so ~ don't "stoop in nature"?

 

 

 

Why "but?" Isn't that exactly my point? Was I not clear enough in describing a method to stand as one with nature? I didn't say "stand in nature," that is why it is in quotes. Even saying "be one with nature" is just words without a method to go along with it.

 

The great thing about a useful method is that it doesn't matter if the person only understands the lesson intellectually or perhaps even misses the point, by doing the method the integration happens. More embodied less ideational.

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3 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

I didn't say "stand in nature," that is why it is in quotes.

 

 

Hi Kevin,

 

I didn't say that You said.

 

I quoted the "quote".

 

Keep well and safe.

 

th?id=OIP.nVY3jIavUBnid4ejf4hnRgHaHB&pid=Api&P=0&w=159&h=151

 

 

- Anand

 

 

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1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

I am confused as to this gentleman Fook Yeung, as there are lots of references that his name is Fook Yueng.  And the same article can mention both spellings.  And what is the surname?   Fook or Yeung?   

 

For Tien Shan style, did Mr. Yeung (or Mr. Fook) imparted martial arts or Chi Kung into the US?   There is a Tien Shan Pai organisation in the US, seems purely Kung Fu. 

 

Tien Shan Pai in the US is a northern long fist style, not from Hong Kong and not related to Master Yeung Fook. It includes both external and internal martial training as well as qigong and Daoist meditation.

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9 hours ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

 There are series of arm gestures and some forward bends that are done very slowly... no... slower... slower... sloowweerrr... no, seriously... MUCH fucking slower. At normal movement speed the whole thing would take a couple of minutes but in practice it takes an hour. It is a glacial meditation of muscular discomfort and discipline that suddenly turns your perception inside out.

 

 

I´m intrigued by slowness in qigong practice, especially extreme slowness.  What does slowness do?  Is the effect of the slowness in this qigong specific to these particular movements or could something similar be achieved by doing some other qigong forms with exquisite slowness?  My guess is there´s something valuable to be gained by slowing down, at least in certain circumstances.  I´d welcome any insights.

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1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m intrigued by slowness in qigong practice, especially extreme slowness.  What does slowness do?  Is the effect of the slowness in this qigong specific to these particular movements or could something similar be achieved by doing some other qigong forms with exquisite slowness?  My guess is there´s something valuable to be gained by slowing down, at least in certain circumstances.  I´d welcome any insights.

 

Interestingly, a lot of the bok fu pai qigong is done at a glacial pace at more advanced levels, including flying phoenix and sunn yee gong. 

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2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m intrigued by slowness in qigong practice, especially extreme slowness.  What does slowness do?  Is the effect of the slowness in this qigong specific to these particular movements or could something similar be achieved by doing some other qigong forms with exquisite slowness?  My guess is there´s something valuable to be gained by slowing down, at least in certain circumstances.  I´d welcome any insights.

Since this seems to be a generic question, I'll share what I know on this subject -- we do the Temple-style Taichi/Dao Gong set quite slowly (not the dance, which can be done slow or fast depending on what we're looking to practice). A typical workout can go from 45 mins to an hour plus. Why is it done slowly? It is because we want to maintain the taiji state while doing these forms -- there are many factors involved in terms of physical alignments, maintaining the correct state of mind, slow and soft breathing, and so on. The slowness integrates our intention with the qi, allows us to better observe what is happening inside and outside (and regulate the form/movement/mind to adjust if deviations are observed). The moving form is interspersed with standing in posture (for example, if you're doing an upward and downward form, we often (in advanced stages) freeze the frame, so to speak -- and continue the energetic flow using the mind intent, even though the body itself is not in motion). 

 

Or there might be other reasons too...for example, one type of practice we do is to perform the single forms physically and using the intention simultaneously perform the movement in exactly the opposite direction. So if you are moving your body forward in say an arrow-and-bow stance, you would also trigger the feeling of reverse movement at the same time. Because there is so much detail to consider, the movement will slow down dramatically. This way of practice builds "friction" and the energy field expands and thickens from the interaction of "yin and yang". 

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4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Kevin,

 

I didn't say that You said.

 

I quoted the "quote".

 

Keep well and safe.

 

th?id=OIP.nVY3jIavUBnid4ejf4hnRgHaHB&pid=Api&P=0&w=159&h=151

 

 

- Anand

 

 

 

Ah, cheers mate. Sorry for being brittle :)

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15 hours ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

Saying Master Yeung was Bruce's main teacher is just Starjumper overstating the facts. After Master Yeung died Linda Lee-Caldwell spoke about him and acknowledged that he was a teacher of Bruce's and important to him.

 

I trained the Tian Shan Qigong with Master Yeung in the mid 90's.

 

'Overstating' .....  or    exaggerating .  .

 

I thought Master Yeung was a training 'brother' with Bruce Lee's father .  Bruce trained under his father  and I thought that was the connection .  I have never heard that Bruce had Master Yeung as 'his teacher'  before . ... maybe as 'one of his many teachers' but not  'his teacher' or even 'main teacher' .

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4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m intrigued by slowness in qigong practice, especially extreme slowness.  What does slowness do?  Is the effect of the slowness in this qigong specific to these particular movements or could something similar be achieved by doing some other qigong forms with exquisite slowness?  My guess is there´s something valuable to be gained by slowing down, at least in certain circumstances.  I´d welcome any insights.

 

This is probably different as I come from an entirely different tradition but for me, practising in slo mo   ... really slo mo , with a partner  who can go at the same speed  * brings great understanding of the technique dynamics and allows, not really greater speed , but better 'timing '

 

*  very hard to find , most speed up at the crucial moment in order to 'get you' or 'score' .   My 'instructor' finds it impossible  :D 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

Ah, cheers mate. Sorry for being brittle :)

 

Limi is off sick today so I am filling in for him .

 

I will quote the word 'brittle' that you used  ( in nice colors ) , a gif of something brittle breaking  and a video of a song ( really bad  old fashioned one ) with something about brittle in it .

 

Why ?

 

 

Spoiler

Who the f*** knows    ?

:unsure:

 

 

Edited by Nungali
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1 hour ago, kevin_wallbridge said:

 

Ah, cheers mate. Sorry for being brittle.

 

 

No worries ~ mate

 

I like...

 

th?id=OIP.-Bw1BzFxxcJKp057Xr8DYAHaJQ&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300 th?id=OIP.4zOlZXPdeVxylB2-B4xjjgHaHa&pid=Api&P=0&w=300&h=300

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Limi is off sick today so I am filling in for him.

 

 

WTF?

 

giphy.gif

 

 

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13 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m intrigued by slowness in qigong practice, especially extreme slowness.  What does slowness do?  Is the effect of the slowness in this qigong specific to these particular movements or could something similar be achieved by doing some other qigong forms with exquisite slowness?  My guess is there´s something valuable to be gained by slowing down, at least in certain circumstances.  I´d welcome any insights.

In nei-jia Qigong practice, mental intent, breath-control, and physical motion are in sync....it can be fast or it can be slow depending on the person's understanding of the movement and the level of achievement. Normally, beginners will perform the set faster than the senior students. For beginners, mental intent, breath-control, and physical motion are yet to be properly synced as the objective at that level is to get the movements right to the T. For senior students, the object is to mentally direct his qi in his movements, yet he should be aware not to 'break' the flow and ensure that the qi must be continuous without disruption which can happen when mental focus is off. Just my 2-cents worth.

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If I move more slowly, then I feel the energy that moves inside of me does so at a 'deeper' level.

 

If I'm imagining myself moving through a thick liquid in order to create internal opposing muscular tension, the slower movement, the greater the internal tension I can generate.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Miffymog said:

If I move more slowly, then I feel the energy that moves inside of me does so at a 'deeper' level.

 

If I'm imagining myself moving through a thick liquid in order to create internal opposing muscular tension, the slower movement, the greater the internal tension I can generate. (I)

 

Hi Miffymog,

 

Sensitively and simply shared in not so many words.

 

A beautiful experiential account from your practice.

 

Thank you.

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited by Limahong
Enhancement
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