Bindi

Acceptance... of what exactly?

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8 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Please know that the dharmkaya, the body and emanation of ALL dharma and the outpouring of the entire phenomenal universe, accepts "you" just as you are, and always has, with complete and unconditional love. You are absolutely just as you should be. Further, please know that the universe, as it is in this moment, CANNOT exist without you JUST AS YOU ARE. It is LITERALLY impossible for things to be otherwise. Self-acceptance is a first step, agreed. Karma creates difficult situations for you to deal with, but ALL of them are an opportunity for you to realize where you can surrender to this moment and accept IT as it is, with all of its perceived flaws.

 

Respectfully - much love to you and yours, and the best of luck in finding your sangha. If you have trouble finding one, please feel free to join mine.


 I don’t much like the accept it all as it is model in general, nor the phenomenal universe acceptance of all just as they are. My mind immediately goes to all the terrible atrocities that have been committed by people I have no intention of accepting just as they are, nor accepting that that is just how it is. 

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12 hours ago, Bindi said:


 I don’t much like the accept it all as it is model in general, nor the phenomenal universe acceptance of all just as they are. My mind immediately goes to all the terrible atrocities that have been committed by people I have no intention of accepting just as they are, nor accepting that that is just how it is. 

 

Your reaction is the common, and culturally appropriate one. Of course you don't like it - no-one does... that is the nature of samsara. There is always something about reality that is at odds with our expectations,  but I think it is worth asking yourself: 

 

"When was the last time you were able to travel in time and change something?"

 

The things we are generally upset about have ALREADY happened and cannot be changed. Accepting this is accepting reality as it is. 

 

 

"What is really happening right in this moment, in a 10 foot, 10 second radius?"

 

Generally this is what you can comfortably, verifiably call "reality". This is also the bubble in which you can take an available action. What are the available actions that might stop suffering in this space?

 

 

"Are the things I don't want to accept happening here in this 10 X 10 space? Have they already happened? Are they happening somewhere else? Is not accepting them as reality truly LIVING in reality?"

 

Notice that I am not saying that accepting is LIKING, it is simply choosing not to be in clinging or aversion to a fictional version of reality that you hope will come to pass or fear will happen, or a memory of the past you wish things were like, or are afraid will be real again. 

 

If something is happening and you are driven to stop it ACT. If you can calm what seems like an impending fight, or right a letter to your congressman, or march with like minded people in this moment, then PLEASE do so. Definitely have compassion for suffering in AND outside of your 10 X 10 circle, and send thought sof loving kindness (or do Buddhist practices like Tonglen or Metta if you are inclined).

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On 11/19/2020 at 11:07 PM, Bindi said:


 I don’t much like the accept it all as it is model in general, nor the phenomenal universe acceptance of all just as they are. My mind immediately goes to all the terrible atrocities that have been committed by people I have no intention of accepting just as they are, nor accepting that that is just how it is. 

 

I find a lot of similarity between this idea of "acceptance" with Chapter 5 of the DDJ, the idea of heaven and earth and the sage treating all things and people as straw dogs. Dao does not judge, prefer, select, or exclude but simply allows all to be expressed.

It includes all things large and small, both beautiful and horrific. 

"Acceptance" is simply observing and relating to reality as it is, not necessarily approving or even tolerating.

 

 

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1 hour ago, steve said:

"Acceptance" is simply observing and relating to reality as it is, not necessarily approving or even tolerating.

 

Hi steve,

 

"Acceptance" reverberates with "Wu-wei"? 

 

energetic-pendulum-small.jpg?w=640

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited by Limahong
Enhancement
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5 hours ago, steve said:

 

I find a lot of similarity between this idea of "acceptance" with Chapter 5 of the DDJ, the idea of heaven and earth and the sage treating all things and people as straw dogs. Dao does not judge, prefer, select, or exclude but simply allows all to be expressed.

It includes all things large and small, both beautiful and horrific. 

"Acceptance" is simply observing and relating to reality as it is, not necessarily approving or even tolerating.

 

 


Having this ‘acceptance’ step honestly seems unnecessary to me. If I see something happening, let’s say someone being bashed, for me to intervene and try to stop this from happening it surely goes without saying that I acknowledge it is happening In the first place  and I have accepted that it truly is happening. It’s like pointing out an inevitable and obvious part of the process, does it benefit anyone to point out this step? 
 

Regarding the sage treating all things and people as straw dogs, this is not my model of spiritual success. Removed, beyond, disengaged. How can a sage ever have compassion or care for anyone else, without falling from the state of sageness? Aren’t they two disparate aims? 
 

 

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4 hours ago, Bindi said:


Having this ‘acceptance’ step honestly seems unnecessary to me. If I see something happening, let’s say someone being bashed, for me to intervene and try to stop this from happening it surely goes without saying that I acknowledge it is happening In the first place  and I have accepted that it truly is happening. It’s like pointing out an inevitable and obvious part of the process, does it benefit anyone to point out this step? 
 

It’s critical because it relates to the accuracy of our perception. Maybe the one being bashed was the abuser... We can only act appropriately and effectively if we see clearly. We are often clouded by misperception created by dysfunctional patterns or emotional distortion. When we act on this basis, we are stumbling in the dark causing more distortion.

 

Quote

Regarding the sage treating all things and people as straw dogs, this is not my model of spiritual success. Removed, beyond, disengaged. How can a sage ever have compassion or care for anyone else, without falling from the state of sageness? Aren’t they two disparate aims? 

Not at all.

There is compassion born from emotion or  sentimentality,  and there is compassion born from wisdom. They are not the same thing. The sage is fully connected and engaged. The basis of the straw dog metaphor is equanimity, not disconnection or aloofness.

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The straw dog metaphor is similar to the Buddhist view on selflessness, imo. The sage's treatment of all things and people as straw dogs, ideally, must begin from a place of self-effacement, or at the very least, a reduced attachment to a self that is constantly in flux, otherwise he (or she) is sage in name only, and the ensuing actions or views tend to be tainted by clinging to a view of self & other. This is how i would interpret it. 

 

In the Diamond Sutra, Buddha elucidated to Subhuti in this way ~ 

"Subhuti, when someone is selflessly charitable, they should also practice being ethical by remembering that there is no distinction between one's self and the selfhood of others. Thus one practices charity by giving not only gifts, but giving through kindness and empathy. Practice kindness and charity without attachment and you can become fully enlightened."

 
Subhuti, what I just said about kindness does not mean that when someone is being charitable they should hold onto arbitrary conceptions about kindness, for kindness is, after all, only a word and charity needs to be spontaneous and selfless, done without regard for appearances."
 
Training to tame the mind to lessen regard for appearances is what leads to equanimity. 
 
 
*my 2 zens
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3 hours ago, steve said:

It’s critical because it relates to the accuracy of our perception. Maybe the one being bashed was the abuser... We can only act appropriately and effectively if we see clearly. We are often clouded by misperception created by dysfunctional patterns or emotional distortion. When we act on this basis, we are stumbling in the dark causing more distortion.

 

This is being fully informed, perceiving clearly, not being rash, all of which are good and reasonable requirements to act correctly, but they aren’t covered by the word ‘acceptance’, at least to my knowledge. 
 

Acceptance means the process or fact of being received as adequate, valid, or suitable. I am specifically rejecting acceptance as the appropriate first response to any and all circumstances and actions. 

 

Quote

 

Not at all.

There is compassion born from emotion or  sentimentality,  and there is compassion born from wisdom. They are not the same thing. The sage is fully connected and engaged. The basis of the straw dog metaphor is equanimity, not disconnection or aloofness.


Where straw dogs are concerned the sage is impartial at best, ruthless or heartless at worst depending on the translation. Elsewhere sages might be referred to as compassionate, but in this particular verse to see the impartial/ruthless/heartless sage as compassionate seems a long stretch to me.  The DDJ wouldn’t be the first holy book to offer two seemingly alternative perspectives. Did Jesus come to love, or create division with a sword, did Muhammad propose fighting or care? 

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6 hours ago, steve said:

The basis of the straw dog metaphor is equanimity, not disconnection or aloofness.

 

Hi steve,

 

I have also embraced the metaphor to be likened to my mind ~ in the midst of being cultivated as close to Nature as possible...

 

growing_plant.jpg

 

 

- Anand

 

Edited by Limahong
Enhancement
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8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

This is being fully informed, perceiving clearly, not being rash, all of which are good and reasonable requirements to act correctly, but they aren’t covered by the word ‘acceptance’, at least to my knowledge. 
 

Acceptance means the process or fact of being received as adequate, valid, or suitable. I am specifically rejecting acceptance as the appropriate first response to any and all circumstances and actions. 

As is your privilege, nothing wrong with that.

 

Acceptance is just a word. Words used in spiritual contexts can’t always be reduced to dictionary definitions. Especially as we are discussing spiritual concepts in a language foreign to their origins. It is necessary that we use words as substitutes and approximations to the original, whether that be “acceptance,” “compassion,” “equanimity,” etc... I find this is one reason why studying with others and with a teacher can be so supportive.

 

Quote


Where straw dogs are concerned the sage is impartial at best, ruthless or heartless at worst depending on the translation. Elsewhere sages might be referred to as compassionate, but in this particular verse to see the impartial/ruthless/heartless sage as compassionate seems a long stretch to me.  The DDJ wouldn’t be the first holy book to offer two seemingly alternative perspectives. Did Jesus come to love, or create division with a sword, did Muhammad propose fighting or care? 

Like UG Krishnamurti’s words discussed earlier, the actions and behavior of a sage are easily and often misinterpreted by those who do not share her view of the world and of others. This is at least one reason why there are seeming contradictions in the great spiritual teachings of many traditions.

 

When encountering something that we don’t understand, don’t accept, or don’t resonate with, we have two options. The first, as you point to above, is to simply reject and go in a different direction. Nothing wrong with that other than the possibility that we may be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.”

 

An alternative is to remain open to the possibility that the teaching we are not receiving favorably still has more to teach us. For whatever reason we are currently not prepared or karmically connected to receive it yet. This is the basis of teachings that are referred to as “self secret.” Over time, with additional study or practice, it may reveal deeper meaning for us. Again this is where a teacher or group of practitioners can be so helpful. In fact, to some degree it’s why we meet here together at DaoBums IMO.

 

We can’t expect to understand everything we come across in these esoteric teachings that have been translated into foreign tongues and cultures. It can take years, even decades, or maybe never. My own teacher freely admits there are elements in the Bön teachings that don’t make sense to him. He often makes this point when people struggle with understanding of challenging points. And this very point about acceptance and the great perfection of all things is a very common sticking point. 

 

Rather than reject those challenging elements, or the tradition as a whole, he simply suggests we stay open to the feeling of not getting it or not agreeing with it knowing that may change as our experience and understanding deepen. I find this an extremely valuable tool that has served me both in spiritual and martial practices, not to mention other areas - sciences, music, etc... A good example for me is playing the guitar. There are techniques or pieces that seem impossible. I can simply give up and work on something else or I can recognize I’m not quite ready to tackle it yet and come back to it from time to time with a flexible perspective and open attitude. In doing so I’ve come to play pieces I never thought possible. 

 

Regarding contradictions, I often share this beautiful quote from a masterful Celtic poet and spiritual teacher -

 

“And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

---- John O'Donohue

 

... steps down from the soapbox...

 

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8 hours ago, steve said:

As is your privilege, nothing wrong with that.

 

Acceptance is just a word. Words used in spiritual contexts can’t always be reduced to dictionary definitions. Especially as we are discussing spiritual concepts in a language foreign to their origins. It is necessary that we use words as substitutes and approximations to the original, whether that be “acceptance,” “compassion,” “equanimity,” etc... I find this is one reason why studying with others and with a teacher can be so supportive.

 

Like UG Krishnamurti’s words discussed earlier, the actions and behavior of a sage are easily and often misinterpreted by those who do not share her view of the world and of others. This is at least one reason why there are seeming contradictions in the great spiritual teachings of many traditions.

 

When encountering something that we don’t understand, don’t accept, or don’t resonate with, we have two options. The first, as you point to above, is to simply reject and go in a different direction. Nothing wrong with that other than the possibility that we may be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.”

 

An alternative is to remain open to the possibility that the teaching we are not receiving favorably still has more to teach us. For whatever reason we are currently not prepared or karmically connected to receive it yet. This is the basis of teachings that are referred to as “self secret.” Over time, with additional study or practice, it may reveal deeper meaning for us. Again this is where a teacher or group of practitioners can be so helpful. In fact, to some degree it’s why we meet here together at DaoBums IMO.

 

We can’t expect to understand everything we come across in these esoteric teachings that have been translated into foreign tongues and cultures. It can take years, even decades, or maybe never. My own teacher freely admits there are elements in the Bön teachings that don’t make sense to him. He often makes this point when people struggle with understanding of challenging points. And this very point about acceptance and the great perfection of all things is a very common sticking point. 

 

Rather than reject those challenging elements, or the tradition as a whole, he simply suggests we stay open to the feeling of not getting it or not agreeing with it knowing that may change as our experience and understanding deepen. I find this an extremely valuable tool that has served me both in spiritual and martial practices, not to mention other areas - sciences, music, etc... A good example for me is playing the guitar. There are techniques or pieces that seem impossible. I can simply give up and work on something else or I can recognize I’m not quite ready to tackle it yet and come back to it from time to time with a flexible perspective and open attitude. In doing so I’ve come to play pieces I never thought possible. 

 

Regarding contradictions, I often share this beautiful quote from a masterful Celtic poet and spiritual teacher -

 

“And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

---- John O'Donohue

 

... steps down from the soapbox...

 


It is a little ironical that you say I am not comprehending a foreign spiritual term from dzogchen or Bon or Buddhism, when your end quote specifically states don’t choose a spiritual method. Actually, this is the better approach for me, I don’t choose a spiritual method, I follow where I am led by an internal insistence that draws me. 

 

 

 

Edited by Bindi
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24 minutes ago, Bindi said:


It is a little ironical that you say I am not comprehending a foreign spiritual term from dzogchen or Bon or Buddhism, when your end quote specifically states don’t choose a spiritual method. Actually, this is the better approach for me, I don’t choose a spiritual method, I follow where I am led by an internal insistence that draws me. 

 

 

 

 

Doubly ironic because the quote is about contradictions, not choosing a method,  and made by a guy who started as a priest, then embraced Celtic spirituality.

😆

I do love his poetry and teachings though.

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20 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Doubly ironic because the quote is about contradictions, not choosing a method,  and made by a guy who started as a priest, then embraced Celtic spirituality.

😆

I do love his poetry and teachings though.


It is about contradictions, but not really relevant to me on this issue because I don’t have any internal contradiction, I know I don’t agree with the concept of accepting everyone and everything as is. 

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:


It is about contradictions, but not really relevant to me on this issue because I don’t have any internal contradiction, I know I don’t agree with the concept of accepting everyone and everything as is. 

That’s cool, I’m not suggesting you should.

 

My long diatribe was not about you in particular, sorry if it felt that way. Nor was the quote. More a general comment for anyone here struggling with challenging concepts, myself especially...

 

I often find contradictions in the world, in spiritual teachings, and in myself. O’Donohue’s words showed me they can be opportunities for discovery rather than just nonsensical. I like to share that.

 

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22 hours ago, steve said:

That’s cool, I’m not suggesting you should.

 

My long diatribe was not about you in particular, sorry if it felt that way. Nor was the quote. More a general comment for anyone here struggling with challenging concepts, myself especially...

 

I often find contradictions in the world, in spiritual teachings, and in myself. O’Donohue’s words showed me they can be opportunities for discovery rather than just nonsensical. I like to share that.

 


I just wanted to add, to put things in a positive frame, that what I do find important is to accept my feelings. I find myself sometimes trying to hold a feeling that is unpleasant at bay, and most often I remember to tell myself to just allow the feeling. This has been a very valuable process for me. 

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:


I just wanted to add, to put things in a positive frame, that what I do find important is to accept my feelings. I find myself sometimes trying to hold a feeling that is unpleasant at bay, and most often I remember to tell myself to just allow the feeling. This has been a very valuable process for me. 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. That’s pretty much acceptance in a nutshell, IMO. Seeing clearly how we react to the world and being genuine with that.

 

In the Buddhist/Bön paradigm it goes a step further and naturally extends to all things because the outside world is not considered separate from us and is determined by our experience of it.

 

That’s a big leap and I’m not suggesting anyone simply “accept” this view but for some it can be supportive, even experienced directly.

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On 23/11/2020 at 2:39 AM, steve said:

That’s cool, I’m not suggesting you should.

 

My long diatribe was not about you in particular, sorry if it felt that way. Nor was the quote. More a general comment for anyone here struggling with challenging concepts, myself especially...

 

I often find contradictions in the world, in spiritual teachings, and in myself. O’Donohue’s words showed me they can be opportunities for discovery rather than just nonsensical. I like to share that.

 

 

Contradictions as opportunities for discovery; I like that! I sometimes say that wisdom is always contextual.

 

Some have stated that truth is dualistic. Crowley insisted that every thought needs to be balanced by its exact opposite. I am not sure how practical that kind of mind set is going to be while handling the necessities of daily living :D, but the idea holds true nevertheless - well, at least half of the time!

 

At least as long as we don't find ourselves in the region above the Abyss in Kabbalistic terms, where all opposites are reconciled and all seemingly contradictory views melt into one.

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On 11/21/2020 at 3:46 AM, stirling said:

 

Your reaction is the common, and culturally appropriate one. Of course you don't like it - no-one does... that is the nature of samsara. There is always something about reality that is at odds with our expectations,  but I think it is worth asking yourself: 

 

"When was the last time you were able to travel in time and change something?"

 

The things we are generally upset about have ALREADY happened and cannot be changed. Accepting this is accepting reality as it is. 

 

 Bullshit !  That isnt  ' reality '  - things are going on right now that we can help change  .

 

And should that cancel out the tings that we do not accept that are happening NOW !  That are in process now ?

 

If you question was phrased without that   rather silly 'travel in time ' clause , I could supply you with a list of personal achievements  and accomplishments  ..... and also a list of the people who where helped , assisted , comforted. changed .

 

Even things that have results of what happened in the past can be changed now  . I should  not even HAVE to give examples  for that , you should be  able to detect and observe them .

 

Quote

 

 

"What is really happening right in this moment, in a 10 foot, 10 second radius?"

 

Generally this is what you can comfortably, verifiably call "reality". This is also the bubble in which you can take an available action. What are the available actions that might stop suffering in this space?

 

 

"Are the things I don't want to accept happening here in this 10 X 10 space? Have they already happened? Are they happening somewhere else? Is not accepting them as reality truly LIVING in reality?"

 

Notice that I am not saying that accepting is LIKING, it is simply choosing not to be in clinging or aversion to a fictional version of reality that you hope will come to pass or fear will happen, or a memory of the past you wish things were like, or are afraid will be real again. 

 

If something is happening and you are driven to stop it ACT. If you can calm what seems like an impending fight, or right a letter to your congressman, or march with like minded people in this moment, then PLEASE do so. Definitely have compassion for suffering in AND outside of your 10 X 10 circle, and send thought sof loving kindness (or do Buddhist practices like Tonglen or Metta if you are inclined).

 

Now you seem at odds about what you said above . Which wasnt about liking or accepting things but saying there was inability to effect change   ;    " ...  cannot be changed. Accepting this is accepting reality as it is. "

 

 

Edited by Nungali

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On 11/20/2020 at 3:07 PM, Bindi said:


 I don’t much like the accept it all as it is model in general, nor the phenomenal universe acceptance of all just as they are. My mind immediately goes to all the terrible atrocities that have been committed by people I have no intention of accepting just as they are, nor accepting that that is just how it is. 

 

IMO  many people with this acceptance of everything attitude  has to do with people  becoming  'dis empowered' .

Edited by Nungali

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15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Contradictions as opportunities for discovery; I like that! I sometimes say that wisdom is always contextual.

 

Some have stated that truth is dualistic. Crowley insisted that every thought needs to be balanced by its exact opposite. I am not sure how practical that kind of mind set is going to be while handling the necessities of daily living :D, but the idea holds true nevertheless - well, at least half of the time!

 

At least as long as we don't find ourselves in the region above the Abyss in Kabbalistic terms, where all opposites are reconciled and all seemingly contradictory views melt into one.

 

I am NOT going to  spill this cup of coffee     <  tips it on shirt >   ..... I better be careful crossing this busy road  < Nah ! >

 

Ahhhhhhh   ....    Supernal  enlightenment  ! 

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recognition rather than acceptance may be a better word to use,  For example Jesus recognized a sinner but he did not accept the continuation of sin, thus He said,  "go your way and sin no more".   Yet even that could get dicey because of the  judgement aspect unless the judgement was spiritually true and wisely given.  Eastern religions  or philosophies that can or do range from A-Z  need extra work for most of us to get a handle of understanding about them,  and so do some of the Christian sayings, like "love thine enemy", which begs the question of what exactly does that mean or what good does it do  if you let your guard down and you or others are harmed or  killed?

Edited by old3bob
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Interesting discussion. It seems that to OP, “acceptance” of something connotes “an agreement” to let whatever is happening happen. Which is not how I look at acceptance. Acceptance is acknowledgment of whatever has occurred. We don’t have to like it if it’s “bad”. We don’t have to dislike it, if it’s “good”. 
 

To me, acceptance is along the lines of “earth rotates”, “a thunderstorm rolls in, rains and disappears”, and so on. Acceptance to me doesn’t mean “don’t do anything”, but rather an opportunity to recognize that something has occurred and take appropriate action (or not). 

Edited by dwai
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8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Interesting discussion. It seems that to OP, “acceptance” of something connotes “an agreement” to let whatever is happening happen. Which is not how I look at acceptance. Acceptance is acknowledgment of whatever has occurred. We don’t have to like it if it’s “bad”. We don’t have to dislike it, if it’s “good”. 
 

To me, acceptance is along the lines of “earth rotates”, “a thunderstorm rolls in, rains and disappears”, and so on. Acceptance to me doesn’t mean “don’t do anything”, but rather an opportunity to recognize that something has occurred and take appropriate action (or not). 


I disagreed with this concept specifically: “accept IT as it is, with all of its perceived flaws.”

 

Does this suggest take appropriate action (or not)? 
 

If I accept myself as I am with all my perceived flaws, would I be inclined to change anything about myself? Spiritual growth to me is fundamentally changing things, not just coming to a greater acceptance of who I am as I am in this moment. I can change the state of my subtle body by clearing subtle channels, and non-acceptance of my current state is required to begin this action. 

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thanks for bringing up elemental forces Dwai,  for instance if someone perishes in a terrible flood most people can accept that that happened without evil intent since  it was by impartial elemental forces, whereas if someone perishes because of willfully evil intent by another being then we have a major difference  in response/reaction and  rightly so imo...

Edited by old3bob
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24 minutes ago, Bindi said:


I disagreed with this concept specifically: “accept IT as it is, with all of its perceived flaws.”

Ok, let’s do a mind exercise. Let’s say you’re driving down a highway in a convertible. Not a cloud in sight. The sun is shining happily — wind blowing your hair softly. Suddenly, a thunderstorm rolls in, rains heavily, before you had a chance to do anything about it. By the time you’re done raising the roof, you are soaked, the hair that was softly flying in the wind is now a tangled mess, all clothes wet and uncomfortable. What option do you have except accept the situation?  Do you have any option to not accept it? 
if you don’t accept it, what is the outcome going to be? 

Quote

 

 

Does this suggest take appropriate action (or not)? 
 

If I accept myself as I am with all my perceived flaws, would I be inclined to change anything about myself? Spiritual growth to me is fundamentally changing things, not just coming to a greater acceptance of who I am as I am in this moment. I can change the state of my subtle body by clearing subtle channels, and non-acceptance of my current state is required to begin this action. 

For you to work on your subtle or physical well-being, do you not have to take stock and accept that you are “unwell”? 

Edited by dwai

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