Is there a space for queer people in a traditional or semi-traditional setting?

[Limahong]

10 hours ago, Cleansox said:

That might be because you are likeable...

 

 

... HE IS.

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

While hurdles of homophobia and discrimination still exist in society, my greatest challenge has not come from the outside.  My greatest challenge has been, and continues to be, self acceptance.  Embracing my whole self is, for me, a large part of what it means to be a spiritual person.  In this regard, my task as a man-loving-dude isn´t so different from that of any other person.  Incredibly, heterosexuals also have insecurities and difficulties relating to others.  Or so I hear.

 

Please know that the dharmkaya, the body and emanation of ALL dharma and the outpouring of the entire phenomenal universe, accepts "you" just as you are, and always has, with complete and unconditional love. You are absolutely just as you should be. Further, please know that the universe, as it is in this moment, CANNOT exist without you JUST AS YOU ARE. It is LITERALLY impossible for things to be otherwise. Self-acceptance is a first step, agreed. Karma creates difficult situations for you to deal with, but ALL of them are an opportunity for you to realize where you can surrender to this moment and accept IT as it is, with all of its perceived flaws.

 

Respectfully - much love to you and yours, and the best of luck in finding your sangha. If you have trouble finding one, please feel free to join mine.

[dachungzi]

@steve

Thank you for saying I'm justified in this anger. I do still want to apologize though. I've been through a lot, and I've had religion used to justify it, just about everyone I grew up with did, queer or not. And when I would read the Bible, I'd feel inundated with justifications for it, it makes no small wonder why the abusers always felt so vindicated. So many more passages for rather than against, and the against always uses much more passive and weak language. All of the worst people I have ever known in my life were deeply religious. Of course I've known plenty of warm, kind religious people, but it usually felt like despite it, and not because of it.

 

I've been dodging explaining what my experiences were, they feel kind of personal and some part of me feels like it's almost taboo to say publicly what they were, I don't know why. Should I not? A part of me also wants to because I'm reconsidering if I'll really ever have anyone I want to tell this to face to face that I'd expect to have any kind of an answer for from, so why not cast a wider net?

 

@Nungali I appreciate the concern even if it's loaded with snark, I've been snippy too.

Quote

I'd like to see a direct quote of that .

 

I mean, in so many words, I find it hard to extrapolate any other meaning from these, some emphasis mine, from https://people.well.com/user/jct/mystiq1.htm:

Quote

People call me an 'enlightened man' -- I detest that term -- they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God.

 

UG: You see, I maintain that -- I don't know, whatever you call this; I don't like to use the words 'enlightenment,' 'freedom,' 'moksha' or 'liberation'; all these words are loaded words, they have a connotation of their own -- this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens. And why it happens to one individual and not another, I don't know.

Questioner: So, it happened to you?

UG: It happened to me.

Q: When, Sir?

UG: In my forty-ninth year.

But whatever you do in the direction of whatever you are after -- the pursuit or search for truth or reality -- takes you away from your own very natural state, in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a result of your effort -- that is why I use the word `acausal'. It has no cause, but somehow the search come to an end.

Q: You think, Sir, that it is not the result of the search? I ask because I have heard that you studied philosophy, that you were associated with religious people ...

UG: You see, the search takes you away from yourself -- it is in the opposite direction -- it has absolutely no relation.

Q: In spite of it, it has happened, not because of it?

UG: In spite of it -- yes, that's the word. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express itself. That is why I call this 'your natural state'. You're always in that state. What prevents what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the wrong direction, so all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that consciousness. You may not (Laughs) like the word 'contamination', but all that you consider sacred, holy and profound is a contamination.

So, there's nothing that you can do. It's not in your hands. I don't like to use the word 'grace', because if you use the word 'grace', the grace of whom? You are not a specially chosen individual; you deserve this, I don't know why.

If it were possible for me, I would be able to help somebody. This is something which I can't give, because you have it. Why should I give it to you? It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which you already have.

 

 

Thanks to everyone who's shared personal experiences and gave advice. Still feel pretty lost, but it's helped me maybe work through a little bit.

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 I don’t much like the accept it all as it is model in general, nor the phenomenal universe acceptance of all just as they are. My mind immediately goes to all the terrible atrocities that have been committed by people I have no intention of accepting just as they are, nor accepting that that is just how it is. 

 

Acceptance of reality and social justice work go together like peanut and chocolate.  True acceptance is not a static dead thing but always gives birth to positive change.  Indeed, no truly beneficial change in self or society is possible unless it is first grounded in acceptance.  Every other kind of change is just false fire.  My two cents.

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, dachungzi said:

@steve

Thank you for saying I'm justified in this anger. I do still want to apologize though. I've been through a lot, and I've had religion used to justify it, just about everyone I grew up with did, queer or not. And when I would read the Bible, I'd feel inundated with justifications for it, it makes no small wonder why the abusers always felt so vindicated. So many more passages for rather than against, and the against always uses much more passive and weak language. All of the worst people I have ever known in my life were deeply religious. Of course I've known plenty of warm, kind religious people, but it usually felt like despite it, and not because of it.

 

 

Dachungzi,

 

There are many spiritual groups who would welcome you as a queer person.  I´m sure of it.  That said, I agree there´s a lot of people who do terrible things in the name of religion.  I´m mad too.  Just off the top of my head, I can think of three gay male friends who attempted suicide because they thought they were going to hell.  I don´t know what your particular experience has been obviously, but I agree with Steve that you are absolutely justified to be pissed off.  There´s no reason to apologize for how you feel.  At the same time you might not want to get stuck in anger and resentment, not because you don´t have good reasons to feel that way, but because those emotions aren´t fun and you deserve better.

 

Hopefully we´ll all find true spiritual community and leave the haters behind. 

[Michael Sternbach]

I suggest that you study all spiritual systems that appeal to you in one way or another and take from each whatever may satisfy a need or answer a question. Much like a painter chooses from their palette whatever colour serves to complete the picture they have before them.

 

Except that in this case, the picture that you are painting is yourself in your unmistakable uniqueness... Your individuality in its highest unfolding.

 

And the path that leads you there must be your very own as well: For it's a path that you alone can recognize and know how to tread. And only you carry the responsibility for every step you take!

 

Isn't it amazing that every religion that we know of has been created by an individual walking such a path to their own fulfillment? Freely perusing whatever preexisting philosophies and methods they found in their time and place.

 

Best of luck on your journey!

 

Michael 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, dachungzi said:

@steve

Thank you for saying I'm justified in this anger. I do still want to apologize though. I've been through a lot, and I've had religion used to justify it, just about everyone I grew up with did, queer or not. And when I would read the Bible, I'd feel inundated with justifications for it, it makes no small wonder why the abusers always felt so vindicated. So many more passages for rather than against, and the against always uses much more passive and weak language. All of the worst people I have ever known in my life were deeply religious. Of course I've known plenty of warm, kind religious people, but it usually felt like despite it, and not because of it.

 

I've been dodging explaining what my experiences were, they feel kind of personal and some part of me feels like it's almost taboo to say publicly what they were, I don't know why. Should I not? A part of me also wants to because I'm reconsidering if I'll really ever have anyone I want to tell this to face to face that I'd expect to have any kind of an answer for from, so why not cast a wider net?

 

@Nungali I appreciate the concern even if it's loaded with snark, I've been snippy too.

 

I mean, in so many words, I find it hard to extrapolate any other meaning from these, some emphasis mine, from https://people.well.com/user/jct/mystiq1.htm:

 

Thanks to everyone who's shared personal experiences and gave advice. Still feel pretty lost, but it's helped me maybe work through a little bit.

 

Thanks for that and yes, I do see how you can get what you said from that quote .   Good ol' Krishnamurti  ! 

 

I can see how he got to that position after the experiences he was put through by his ' spiritual peers' .

 

 

I am still advocating the psychonaught path though .  What I liked about it was  the way of treating it like a scientific experiment  - on myself .   Try something, see if any thing happens of value and if it was worth it .  Like an experiment it needs to be written up though and results recorded, sometimes for a long time, in a working diary. Reading one of those back can be very self illuminating ! And one can increase adjust or abandon as results indicate .

 

 

[steve]

9 hours ago, dachungzi said:

@steve

Thank you for saying I'm justified in this anger. I do still want to apologize though. I've been through a lot, and I've had religion used to justify it, just about everyone I grew up with did, queer or not. And when I would read the Bible, I'd feel inundated with justifications for it, it makes no small wonder why the abusers always felt so vindicated. So many more passages for rather than against, and the against always uses much more passive and weak language. All of the worst people I have ever known in my life were deeply religious. Of course I've known plenty of warm, kind religious people, but it usually felt like despite it, and not because of it.

 

I've been dodging explaining what my experiences were, they feel kind of personal and some part of me feels like it's almost taboo to say publicly what they were, I don't know why. Should I not? A part of me also wants to because I'm reconsidering if I'll really ever have anyone I want to tell this to face to face that I'd expect to have any kind of an answer for from, so why not cast a wider net?.

 

I would never ask you to share personal stuff but if you think it would help you, or others, to share I’m certainly willing to listen without judgment. Some people tend to share more of themselves here and seem to benefit from that. Others tend to be a bit more guarded and private. Like with anything else, it’s about what works for us personally. I appreciate having this conversation, it’s important.

[steve]

PS - re UG’s discussion of his calamity, what he says is true regarding no enlightenment, no one to be enlightened, no one can help you, etc... The catch is that it is ONLY true if you have that direct, personal experience of non-duality. In dzogchen terms we say it is true from the side of the absolute - the enlightened mind, the Nature of Mind. It is NOT true or helpful from the side of the individual who has not yet had an awakening experience. What I mean is that it is not true for the individual because they have no frame of reference for what it really means. Without that frame of reference, it is predictably misunderstood and misleading, even harmful.

 

So if words like UG’s are supportive of further spiritual growth, they are wonderful. If they reinforce anger, frustration, negativity, or abandoning the possibility of personal growth, they are worse than worthless.

 

As always, just my $.02.

[Limahong]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Acceptance of reality and social justice work go together like peanut and chocolate.

 

Hi Jesse,

 

You like to have more?

 

- Anand

 

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

You like to have more?

 

 

Unfortunately, yes.

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

Unfortunately, yes.

 

Hi Jesse,

 

Unfortunately yes/no ~ otherwise I will be reprimanded for spamming.

Trust you will understand.

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, steve said:

The catch is that it is ONLY true if you have that direct, personal experience of non-duality.

 

Hi steve,

 

Nothing ~ like experiential learning and knowing...   

 

As always, just my $.02.

 

- Anand

 

[thelerner]

17 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Hopefully we´ll all find true spiritual community and leave the haters behind. 

I wonder if part of that is leaving our own hate behind.  I'm not saying accept or 'love' the haters.  Seems good to avoid them or see what peace you can safely and ethicly make with them.   But to actively hate, have it consume your thoughts.. that seems bad.  

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

I wonder if part of that is leaving our own hate behind.  I'm not saying accept or 'love' the haters.  Seems good to avoid them or see what peace you can safely and ethicly make with them.   But to actively hate, have it consume your thoughts.. that seems bad.  

 

Forgiveness isn´t my forte but I think maybe you´re right.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Forgiveness isn´t my forte but I think maybe you´re right.

 

Good morning Jesse,

 

Forgiving is to give forward the compassion we are given and received from others. 

 

Bro ~ make it your strength to (for) give as such henceforth. You surely can.

 

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Nungali]

I am also going to advocate astrology here as well. And I dont mean mundane popular daily predictions /romance , etc BS astrology .

 

I mean study astrology .    I am a firm believer in that hermetic maxim 'Know Thyself' . If you dont know yourself  FIRST how can you expect to accomplish anything else ?

 

I did a workshop with some others that went for many weeks, once night a  week on how to read and interpret your own chart .

 

Invaluable !     It also put together some  things and solved certain 'mysteries' I have had all my life until then .

 

I am giving it a

 

 

 

( you see what I did there   )  

 

 

Of course , studying astrology and finding out a whole lot of stuff about yourself isnt going to have any of the problems outlined throughout this thread .

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Nungali

[aden]

On 2020. 11. 20. at 8:57 AM, helpfuldemon said:

Let me ask you... if you took just the gospels, not the rest, would you find Christianity agreeable?

 

At least from my own limited knowledge learned from others, patriarchal hierarchy cultures and moral beliefs based around Hellenistic and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern cultures had a huge influence in the formation of Christianity as an established religion supported by the elites. 

 

Before such establishment there used to be countless different groups of Christ-followers who held different views and beliefs that competed against one another, quite a few of whom had beliefs that were considered highly egalitarian, individualistic, and "highly subversive". The Tale of Paul and Thecla may show a glimpse of the beliefs of these "subversive" Christ followers. (and there's a bunch of texts that weren't accepted nor canonized by the Church as well).

 

The contents of the Bible itself show that patriarchal hierarchy cultures of Hellenistic and Mediterranean/Middle East had a huge influence on the various different writers during the early Christian era. Such trend eventually dominated and assimilated into a religion that was favorable for traditional hierarchy cultures, while casting differing views and texts as heretical. The process is actually frighteningly identical to how Sinocentrism, Confucianism, and Han Chauvinism absorbed & assimilated various different cultures and ethic groups throughout East Asia while casting all others out as heretics or "barbarians".

[steve]

The discussion on "acceptance" has been split off and moved at member's request to a separate thread -

 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, steve said:

The discussion on "acceptance" has been split off and moved at member's request to a separate thread -

Acceptance... of what exactly?

 

Hi steve,

 

What do I accept ~ exactly?

NOTHING.

Why?

NOTHING is permanent.

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

 

NOTHING ~ to accept or reject when YIN and Yang embrace each other as ONE?