Is there a space for queer people in a traditional or semi-traditional setting?

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Oh. So may I ask, what are you "into"?

 

Yes.  I haven't been into girls since I was  a boy . Now I am into women , and have been for some time .

 

 

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I always imagined those notorious three girlfriends you had at one time were kind of pretty...

 

 

yeah , girl friend is a strange term .  lets call them my  paramours . And there where not just 3 as sometimes the combination changed  (one would drop out and another one replace)  .  

 

I would not call them pretty  .  I am not into 'pretty'  either   Pretty  ... what a funny word  ; 

 

" ... of a person, (especially a woman or child) attractive in a delicate way without being truly beautiful.

 

...  an attractive thing, especially a trinket. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see it now;  " Come here ...my little trinket . "

 

 

Spoiler

 

[helpfuldemon]

You should really read into Thelema and Magick.  The good news is that its all-inclusive; its really one of the best schools to lead you to understanding that its all enlightenment.  The bad news is that it makes everything valid (well, that's not so bad, is it?).  

 

You might not agree with Thelema as a religion, but they do include homosexuals.  They should include everyone, but Crowley had a beef with Christianity.  All religions are valid because all morality is valid, as you can see from Nungali's dissertation of some of Crowley's teachings.  It's like this:  all moral choices are positive choices, even ones that we deem bad, based upon our moral perspective.  All things have a morality to them, but all of them are illusion, because in the end Nothing is absolute (yes that is a double entendre).  So you either 

 

1. Sit in your moral position in knowing

2. Accept all moral positions

or

3. Accept none of them

 

Crowley was an extremist, and part of his teachings is to go from one side to the other until you reach the end of both sides, which actually isn't a straight line, but anyway...  You realize All and you realize Nothing.  That is why it is good news and bad news; there is no absolutes.

 

My take on it is simply that you are already enlightened.  You were given your choices, you made your decisions, and you continue to choose because you agreed.  The only time there is a problem is when it doesn't suit you.  Do you need a religion?  Why?  You said you didn't want one for community, so, To Thine Own Self Be True, Do What Thou Wilt!

 

All religious systems have the bonus materials of method to attain enlightenment.  Use these for your own purposes.  Welcome to Thelema and Magick.

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

If you are really interested in a traditional spiritual approach compatible with homoerotic Love then you should look into Plato.  Twenty-five hundred years ago he wrote some of the most eloquent descriptions of homoerotic Love in Western literature and actually teaches that properly used it can lead to men back to their heavenly home in a type of proto-Tantra.  It is also a rigorously argued philosophy that defends our divine origin and nature.

 

I don't have time now to write in more detail, but if you, or for that matter anyone else is interested I can provide quotes from such Platonic dialogues as Symposium and Phaedrus which will support what I have said.

 

ZYD

 

 

Edit: Changed homosexual to homoerotic which is much more accurate and in the spirit that Plato intended.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Cleansox]

13 hours ago, dachungzi said:

 

I really hope that wasn't Ian Duncan,

It's not. 

Quote

why would you recommend him to me in the first thread I made?

   Because he fits the description you made? 

[Cleansox]

13 hours ago, dachungzi said:

That's legit disgusting and would force me to discard the entire premise of all of their teachings as nonsense. 

Few spiritual teachers are able to discard their cultural biases to 100%.

If you are seeking that in a living teacher, or in a tradition as a whole, you are going to have a long search. 

Hope you find what you seek! 

[Master Logray]

No spiritual teacher can totally escape from cultural preferences, otherwise they would have great difficulties to spread their messages.  Deviations in sexual inclinations, either are disregarded, or treated as a sin.   Looking for justifications in the many scriptures to prove the teachings can somehow be twisted is mostly futile.  Even women is not considered equal, how would queer/LGBT etc be treated. 

 

[dachungzi]

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

It's not. 

   Because he fits the description you made? 

 

I meant to phrase that "why did you" but I did try emailing him asking about this and he never replied : P
 

[dachungzi]

If there really is this degree of small minded pettiness from the mouths of the supposed sages, Buddhas and enlightened gurus why should I believe that any of these people have any idea of what they're talking about? That these practices have any merit? Why should I even practice their derivatives if the source is also meaningless? How is this in any way "enlightenment"? I feel only more and more affirmation that these all are simply an "alliance with the despot" as Thomas Jefferson had to say about clergy in "every country and age". Conniving miserable sycophants, cretins without any practical merit outside an affinity for manipulation and ritual, coaxing a higher social status out of elite patrons by pacifying a justifiably angry and miserable peasantry who have every right and reason to take their king's head, and otherwise attempting to take a crown for themselves when met with resistance.

 

More and more affirmation in UG Krishnamurti in saying all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it. That there is no truer statement in all the world's scriptures than the passage in the Avadhuta Gita that "There is no teacher, no teaching, and no one taught." and so I think I will leave this inn to kill the Buddha on the road. Good luck to you all, I guess.

[Master Logray]

26 minutes ago, dachungzi said:

If there really is this degree of small minded pettiness from the mouths of the supposed sages, Buddhas and enlightened gurus why should I believe that any of these people have any idea of what they're talking about? That these practices have any merit? Why should I even practice their derivatives if the source is also meaningless? How is this in any way "enlightenment"? I feel only more and more affirmation that these all are simply an "alliance with the despot" as Thomas Jefferson had to say about clergy in "every country and age". Conniving miserable sycophants, cretins without any practical merit outside an affinity for manipulation and ritual, coaxing a higher social status out of elite patrons by pacifying a justifiably angry and miserable peasantry who have every right and reason to take their king's head, and otherwise attempting to take a crown for themselves when met with resistance.

 

More and more affirmation in UG Krishnamurti in saying all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it. That there is no truer statement in all the world's scriptures than the passage in the Avadhuta Gita that "There is no teacher, no teaching, and no one taught." and so I think I will leave this inn to kill the Buddha on the road. Good luck to you all, I guess.

 

These "Systems" were not intended for you, not intended to be of any merit to you - a specially inclined person 1000 or 2000 years later.  They have their usefulness or meanings for a different audience.  Just wonder why you say "why should I believe...", you are not obligated to believe in anything at all.  You are free.

[Cleansox]

@dachungzi

I am glad that this discussion have shattered your illusions about spiritual training and the people that practice it. 

[liminal_luke]

I´m gay and this really hasn´t been an issue for me in the Daoist circles (and previously Buddhist) circles I´ve been apart of for decades now.  For starters, take this forum.  Everybody who reads me and has been around for awhile knows that I´m gay and there´s only been one or two instances when I felt any kind of negativity about it.  Occasionally a Bum will post an opinion I deem homophobic but it´s basically never directed at me personally.  This place has warmly welcomed me -- no complaints.

 

This feeling of welcome has been echoed in the Daoist communities I´ve been apart of.  Now granted, I´m not trying to join a community in Saudi Arabia or even China.  (Is China very homophobic?  I have no idea.)  I´m talking mostly in the United States.  For awhile I went to an acupuncturist in Portland who knew I was gay and attended his Tai Chi class for several years.  I´ve studied with Healing Dao instructors, Sundo, Kunlun and Yigong.  I´ve gone on multiple vipassana retreats.  It´s never been an issue.  I´m not super out there with my gay identity but I don´t hide it either.  A few years back I was walking with Sifu Jenny Lamb and her other students when someone asked me about my relationship status.  I said I had a boyfriend and nobody batted an eye.

 

What do teachers think in the privacy of their hearts?  That I can´t say.  I suspect there are those who believe that homosexuals are spiritually less than heterosexuals.  But mostly they say nothing and teach me the best they can.  We do alright.

[steve]

1 hour ago, dachungzi said:

If there really is this degree of small minded pettiness from the mouths of the supposed sages, Buddhas and enlightened gurus why should I believe that any of these people have any idea of what they're talking about? That these practices have any merit? Why should I even practice their derivatives if the source is also meaningless? How is this in any way "enlightenment"? I feel only more and more affirmation that these all are simply an "alliance with the despot" as Thomas Jefferson had to say about clergy in "every country and age". Conniving miserable sycophants, cretins without any practical merit outside an affinity for manipulation and ritual, coaxing a higher social status out of elite patrons by pacifying a justifiably angry and miserable peasantry who have every right and reason to take their king's head, and otherwise attempting to take a crown for themselves when met with resistance.

I think it is good and important to be true to how you feel.

Your apparent frustration and anger are valid and appropriate, in my opinion.

Hearing your thoughts and feelings on the topic really made me think just how many people been marginalized and abused by the patriarchal institutions that have grown up around spiritual and religious traditions.

 

1 hour ago, dachungzi said:

 

More and more affirmation in UG Krishnamurti in saying all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it. That there is no truer statement in all the world's scriptures than the passage in the Avadhuta Gita that "There is no teacher, no teaching, and no one taught." and so I think I will leave this inn to kill the Buddha on the road. Good luck to you all, I guess.

There is one important error in what you attribute to UG here, IMO.

Each of us needs to be true to ourselves, not try to project our ideas, experiences, and values on others.

For anyone, UG included, to say that "all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it" is simply evidence of their own arrogance and lack of understanding. In spiritual practice we can only know what works or does not work for ourselves and even that is not a stagnant thing, it can change over time. 

To project our own lack of connection to spiritual traditions onto others does both a disservice.

 

Many people have benefited greatly from spiritual practice, teachers, and traditions.

Many, of course, have not.

Rather than "believe" the words of others, even those who disparage spiritual traditions, I've taken the approach of experimenting with them myself. It is not so much the traditions, the rituals, or even the teachers that are most important. What counts is the effects of the practice on our own lives. Belief for me is mainly illusion, direct personal experience and results is far more valuable. 

I have many friends who are actively engaged and have benefited deeply from spiritual practices that have plenty of cause to despise them, whether they be female, trans, gay, bi,... whatever. Yes there has been far too much harm done by religions and their followers. Nevertheless, there has also been a lot of benefit for a lot of people. 

 

I wish you the best on your path and appreciate you starting this discussion and sharing your feelings.

 

 

[Limahong]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:58 AM, dachungzi said:

I've been hoping to find a more traditional setting to help contextualize and explore an experience I've had recently and memories from my childhood, but, well, I'm queer.

 

Hi dachungzi,

 

From the way you write ~ you are not queer (or peculiar, irregular...). 

 

 

 

Keep on being yourself, knowing yourself...

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

50 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

This feeling of welcome has been echoed in the Daoist communities I´ve been apart of. 

 

 

 

 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I´m gay and this really hasn´t been an issue for me in the Daoist circles (and previously Buddhist) circles I´ve been apart of for decades now. 

/... ... /

 

This feeling of welcome has been echoed in the Daoist communities I´ve been apart of. 

That might be because you are likeable, while there are plenty of (for example) white hetero males that are not. And that goes a long way. 

 

[helpfuldemon]

I'm gay and I've had some very profound spiritual experiences that nearly no one else can compare with.  Granted, it hasn't turned out to be the best of experiences, but what I am saying is that it doesn't have anything to do with exclusion of spiritual truth in realm of enlightening things that happen.  

 

Having said that, I want to add that I have never felt drawn to any particular practice or faith.  Truth is truth, and if its true to me, then its true.  

 

 

[thelerner]

For better or worse I tend to look at religions in terms of what I can learn from them.. from there best. 

 

[stirling]

One of my teachers, the late Jana Drakka, was most definitely lesbian and very actively a part of that community, but also (quietly) transgender and never had issues in her time at San Francisco Zen center, where she was a monk, and eventually a transmitted teacher. As you would imagine, there are MANY from the LGBTQ community at SFZC, as well as many from most any other measure of diversity you could fathom. At another abbey where I spent much of my time, the Tenso (in charge of meals) was transgender, and would happily tell you that there was never a comment made. My experience with Soto Zen in California is that is has been mostly blind to such things. People are there to become enlightened, not judge others. 

[silent thunder]

.

Edited November 19, 2020 by silent thunder

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, dachungzi said:

If there really is this degree of small minded pettiness from the mouths of the supposed sages, Buddhas and enlightened gurus why should I believe that any of these people have any idea of what they're talking about? That these practices have any merit? Why should I even practice their derivatives if the source is also meaningless?

 

Look for the gold, discard the dross .

 

What ? You want a perfect system , perfectly suited to your unique individuality ?  Forget it ! 

 

In a way , IF you are sincere and DO want to be on a path of self discovery and advancement and development  you have to, we all have to, overcome certain difficulties. Some have minor ones to deal with and others giant ones to deal with .

 

We get your bitchin'  .    If its only bitchin, okay well and good  and bye bye now .    If you DO want to go further , you might try reading some of the advice here a bit more 'receptively '    , hmmmmm ?

 

And you will find the answer to your question is actually ;  yes .

 

 

 

 

Quote

How is this in any way "enlightenment"? I feel only more and more affirmation that these all are simply an "alliance with the despot" as Thomas Jefferson had to say about clergy in "every country and age". Conniving miserable sycophants, cretins without any practical merit outside an affinity for manipulation and ritual, coaxing a higher social status out of elite patrons by pacifying a justifiably angry and miserable peasantry who have every right and reason to take their king's head, and otherwise attempting to take a crown for themselves when met with resistance.

 

Then piss off the clergy !    Try a gnostic approach -  meaning 'self knowledge'  and one who contacts ( God or whatever you are chasing ) directly and does not need any intervention or mediation via  priest or clergy , etc .

 

Quote

 

More and more affirmation in UG Krishnamurti in saying all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it.

 

Did he ?   ALL   religious practices  ?

 

1.   I'd like to see a direct quote of that .

 

2.  If you really believe that , simple , just become an atheistic materialist .

 

Quote

 

 

That there is no truer statement in all the world's scriptures than the passage in the Avadhuta Gita that "There is no teacher, no teaching, and no one taught." and so I think I will leave this inn to kill the Buddha on the road. Good luck to you all, I guess.

 

I hope you find some clarity beyond your   venting outrage and anger  ( I am not saying it might not be justified , I just would not like to see you stuck there for too long )  .

Edited November 19, 2020 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

Let me ask you... if you took just the gospels, not the rest, would you find Christianity agreeable?

[liminal_luke]

I wrote earlier about my (mostly positive) as a gay guy exploring eastern traditions of meditation and movement.  Thinking about things further, I´d like to add that my experience with organized religion hasn´t been nearly so positive.  It´s tough to say anything definitive about gay life within Christian and Jewish circles.  Lord knows there are a lot of us.  I believe that there´s a genuine spiritual path available in all the Abrahamic religions, but it´s not one freely available for all.

 

I spent my junior year of college studying Torah in Israel.  It was a wonderful experience but my dream of moving there after college and joining some socially insular but spiritually enraptured Hasidic community was not to be.  There´s just not much room in that world for guys like me, in spite of my predilection for predawn dips in the mikvah.  I might have had more luck in a Reform community in the US, but, like Woody Allen, I´m not much interested in being part of a club who will have me. 

 

 While hurdles of homophobia and discrimination still exist in society, my greatest challenge has not come from the outside.  My greatest challenge has been, and continues to be, self acceptance.  Embracing my whole self is, for me, a large part of what it means to be a spiritual person.  In this regard, my task as a man-loving-dude isn´t so different from that of any other person.  Incredibly, heterosexuals also have insecurities and difficulties relating to others.  Or so I hear.  

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I wrote earlier about my (mostly positive) as a gay guy exploring eastern traditions of meditation and movement.  Thinking about things further, I´d like to add that my experience with organized religion hasn´t been nearly so positive.  It´s a tough to say anything definitive about gay life within Christian and Jewish circles.  Lord knows there are a lot of us.  I believe that there´s a genuine spiritual path available in all the Abrahamic religions, but it´s not one freely available for all.

 

I spent my junior year of college studying Torah in Israel.  It was a wonderful experience but my dream of moving there after college and joining some socially insular but spiritually enraptured Hasidic community was not to be.  There´s just not much room in that world for guys like me, in spite of my predilection for predawn dips in the mikvah.  I might have had more luck in a Reform community in the US, but, like Woody Allen, I´m not much interested in being part of a club who will have me. 

 

 While hurdles of homophobia and discrimination still exist in society, my greatest challenge has not come from the outside.  My greatest challenge has been, and continues to be, self acceptance.  Embracing my whole self is, for me, a large part of what it means to be a spiritual person.  In this regard, my task as a man-loving-dude isn´t so different from that of any other person.  Incredibly, heterosexuals also have insecurities and difficulties relating to others.  Or so I hear.  

 

 

Love.

Respect.

 

*hug*

 

 

[Paradoxal]

"There is no place in the world for someone who believes there to be no place in the world for themselves."

[steve]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I wrote earlier about my (mostly positive) as a gay guy exploring eastern traditions of meditation and movement.  Thinking about things further, I´d like to add that my experience with organized religion hasn´t been nearly so positive.  It´s tough to say anything definitive about gay life within Christian and Jewish circles.  Lord knows there are a lot of us.  I believe that there´s a genuine spiritual path available in all the Abrahamic religions, but it´s not one freely available for all.

 

I spent my junior year of college studying Torah in Israel.  It was a wonderful experience but my dream of moving there after college and joining some socially insular but spiritually enraptured Hasidic community was not to be.  There´s just not much room in that world for guys like me, in spite of my predilection for predawn dips in the mikvah.  I might have had more luck in a Reform community in the US, but, like Woody Allen, I´m not much interested in being part of a club who will have me. 

You been here a while, aintcha?!

 

Quote

 

 While hurdles of homophobia and discrimination still exist in society, my greatest challenge has not come from the outside.  My greatest challenge has been, and continues to be, self acceptance.  Embracing my whole self is, for me, a large part of what it means to be a spiritual person.  In this regard, my task as a man-loving-dude isn´t so different from that of any other person.  Incredibly, heterosexuals also have insecurities and difficulties relating to others.  Or so I hear.  

 

 

This last part is beautiful.

You heard right.