Emotions are the path

[steve]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Discussion is necessary for realization. But more internal discussion is needed - aka contemplation. If we get caught up in desire to “win” we will lose  

 

I'm a bit surprised at this... which is kind of fun, otherwise things can get a bit stale here.

 

"Discussion is necessary for realization"... not sure I agree.

Some discussion may be useful for some people but not at all necessary, IMO/IME.

 

"But more internal discussion is needed - aka contemplation"... definitely do not agree.

Internal discussion is not needed for realization, it is far more likely to be an obstacle IMO/IME.

 

Perhaps I misunderstand your comments or perhaps we simply see it a bit differently.

 

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'm a bit surprised at this... which is kind of fun, otherwise things can get a bit stale here.

 

"Discussion is necessary for realization"... not sure I agree.

Some discussion may be useful for some people but not at all necessary, IMO/IME.

 

"But more internal discussion is needed - aka contemplation"... definitely do not agree.

Internal discussion is not needed for realization, it is far more likely to be an obstacle IMO/IME.

 

Perhaps I misunderstand your comments or perhaps we simply see it a bit differently.

 

It is part of the continuum of "hearing, contemplating and meditating". The discussion can be part of "hearing" or "Learning". The internal contemplation is part of assimilating the knowledge intellectually. Then it needs to be transformed into realization through meditation. 

[steve]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is part of the continuum of "hearing, contemplating and meditating". The discussion can be part of "hearing" or "Learning". The internal contemplation is part of assimilating the knowledge intellectually. Then it needs to be transformed into realization through meditation. 

 

As a comment on the formal structure for listening to and learning from wisdom teachings, I agree.

Thanks for clarifying.

This part "then it needs to be transformed into realization" is more where I was coming from.

There is an important, I would say the most important, piece that is unrelated to and often obstructed by external and internal discussion.

 

[old3bob]

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Edited April 13, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

One could say the first was a “relative truth”, and the latter, “an absolute truth”. 

 

Truth is a reification.   The quality of being true to some situation/agreement/perception is turned into an object independent of context

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)#:~:text=Reification (also known as concretism,real event or physical entity.

 

The concept of the Absolute may also be a reification

 

My own experience of the Absolute (the unchanging) was that when I got closer I saw that what I was looking at was actually changing but I previously could not see sufficiently deeply to observe that,

 

Thus the Absolute always appeared to be a bit further away than I could see.

 

These days I do not think in such terms but rather distinguish Beingness from Existence - or Being from Becoming.

[dwai]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

As a comment on the formal structure for listening to and learning from wisdom teachings, I agree.

Thanks for clarifying.

This part "then it needs to be transformed into realization" is more where I was coming from.

There is an important, I would say the most important, piece that is unrelated to and often obstructed by external and internal discussion.

 

Yes agreed on that. But if realization is accidental, internal and external discussions make us more accident prone  

[Bindi]

On 13/4/2023 at 6:53 AM, Apech said:

Both the absolute and the relative (or conventional) views are true.

Neither the absolute (as it is conceived of here) nor the relative views are true, perhaps both are partially correct at most. 

[silent thunder]

10 hours ago, steve said:

I find that in trying to discuss or describe the Absolute, the less I say about it the closer I am to the truth.

While putting my response together a voice in my mind repeatedly suggested that very notion.

 

Perhaps this is why abiding in silence and cultivating space for mind to quiet is a cornerstone practice in nearly every lineage and line of self discovery.

 

My call sign here is drawn from an experience of profound silence shared with my partner, while resting deep in a ravine in the Badlands one August afternoon.  We'd come to rest after several hours hiking up this canyon split.  We hadn't spoken in some hours which is nothing unusual for us while hiking.  After a time sitting however we each became accutely aware of a silence so dense, so pervasive, so penetrating, it dwarved all senses, all thinking.  The notion that I had never experienced true silence like this was acute.  The sense that where we'd settled was devoid of any kind of organic life, no insects, no vegetation.  Nothing but us for quite some space.  And then the internal sound began.  A faint rushing sound, like a raging river, far off. 

 

We looked at one another simultaneously with questioning eyes... and asked without speaking "are you getting this?"  We each nodded and then in growing awe we each perceived the very faint rushing sound began growing, while all about the utter silence damped down about us.  This rushing sound at first like water, steadily grew in intensity until it was no longer water but absolute roaring silent thunder. Obliterating all notions, all concepts.  At one point the following thought crossed my mind.  If this continues, I will cease.  My mind will cease and my very body will become shaken apart and I (ego) will cease to be.

 

We stood up together and walked out of the ravine, only sharing our mirrored experience after regaining the car and heading toward our camp site.  Our experience was shared and nigh on identical.  I may forget my son's birthday some day, but I doubt I could ever forget the impact of that silent roar.  It dwarved all other experiences in this life.

[Bindi]

8 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

While putting my response together a voice in my mind repeatedly suggested that very notion.

 

Perhaps this is why abiding in silence and cultivating space for mind to quiet is a cornerstone practice in nearly every lineage and line of self discovery.

 

My call sign here is drawn from an experience of profound silence shared with my partner, while resting deep in a ravine in the Badlands one August afternoon.  We'd come to rest after several hours hiking up this canyon split.  We hadn't spoken in some hours which is nothing unusual for us while hiking.  After a time sitting however we each became accutely aware of a silence so dense, so pervasive, so penetrating, it dwarved all senses, all thinking.  The notion that I had never experienced true silence like this was acute.  The sense that where we'd settled was devoid of any kind of organic life, no insects, no vegetation.  Nothing but us for quite some space.  And then the internal sound began.  A faint rushing sound, like a raging river, far off. 

 

We looked at one another simultaneously with questioning eyes... and asked without speaking "are you getting this?"  We each nodded and then in growing awe we each perceived the very faint rushing sound began growing, while all about the utter silence damped down about us.  This rushing sound at first like water, steadily grew in intensity until it was no longer water but absolute roaring silent thunder. Obliterating all notions, all concepts.  At one point the following thought crossed my mind.  If this continues, I will cease.  My mind will cease and my very body will become shaken apart and I (ego) will cease to be.

 

We stood up together and walked out of the ravine, only sharing our mirrored experience after regaining the car and heading toward our camp site.  Our experience was shared and nigh on identical.  I may forget my son's birthday some day, but I doubt I could ever forget the impact of that silent roar.  It dwarved all other experiences in this life.

The challenge IMO is to become truly ready to cease to be, and allow the roar to fully become. 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The challenge IMO is to become truly ready to cease to be

 

Cease to be what?

 

Many of the humans I see are part of the Absolute - have always been and will always be.   

Are they taking human form for a purpose?

 

Blavatsky told us that many humans are soul-less.   I often see those too.  Are they part of the Absolute?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

I'd say that's crap about some being soul-less...although some may become  seriously veiled, comatose like, enthralled somehow or partially caught in some loka that in comparison to most others they seem soul-less - but lets not forget that rock crystals have some level of "soul", trees have some level of soul, etc..thus a still biologically alive human being has to have some level of soul connection through their silver cord, if not that cord would be cut and their form would be reduced to simple elemental compounds (with death turning it to dust) where there was once soul connection and force which then has completely left.   So considering that I'd say some are very wrong to walk around making generalization's  about "no soul" .

Edited April 14, 2023 by old3bob

[Mithras]

Soul is an odd point, I find that it’s certainly very possible to be a Disease Lord still; someone who doesn’t care about outside observation.

 

Have you had any luck entering the emotional realm? It’s something odd I read about in a Wuxia but lately the sensation of ability is getting more intense. Emotional realm being a realm of only emotions.

 

Still a Godling, is familiar with the experience of a silver thread across their pupils. Might be something of notice.

 

I’m still looking for a cultivation manual on my end. Though the influence of Qi Sea Ancestor has honestly taught me a bit, the path of cultivators being radically different from development of dantien and daoist measures.
 

Qi Sea Ancestor did not meditate, he did not split his senses or apprehension. Instead he would grow his sea larger, stating that empty measures are still empty. Qi Sea Ancestor could stay in the physical realm, this is one thing I’m certain of.

 

At the same time cultivators of the emotional realm crush mountains like candy. I’m at a bit of a loss about human progress the most

 

Just the decadence of reestablishing the immortal way, someone really might have to enjoy themselves.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Mithras

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Lairg said:

Truth is a reification.   The quality of being true to some situation/agreement/perception is turned into an object independent of context

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)#:~:text=Reification (also known as concretism,real event or physical entity.

 

The concept of the Absolute may also be a reification

 

My own experience of the Absolute (the unchanging) was that when I got closer I saw that what I was looking at was actually changing but I previously could not see sufficiently deeply to observe that,

 

Thus the Absolute always appeared to be a bit further away than I could see.

 

These days I do not think in such terms but rather distinguish Beingness from Existence - or Being from Becoming.

 

You are "absolutely" right here. The "two truths" doctrine is ITSELF a relative truth teaching - a teaching tool. It isn't really possible to characterize the absolute in subject/object terms, though there are core qualities to it that can be as close as you can get without actually apperceiving it. The only way to completely understand the absolute is by direct experience.  

 

This is where the Zen expression of "don't know mind" comes from. It is the idea that the enemy of understanding is the reification of our experience.

 

I will differ with you on your characterization of the absolute - my direct experience of it in this moment is that the absolute is the only thing that ISN'T changing. It is the relative that is in flux, flowing out of the absolute. The absolute is the substrate that underlies all experiencing, the only "thing" that never changes. Form (the ever-changing relative) is (perhaps) the expression or maybe canvas of that emptiness. They are ultimately the same. 

[steve]

30 minutes ago, stirling said:

The only way to completely understand the absolute is by direct experience.  

 

I'm quite certain @stirling already understands this but I think it's worth mentioning that even when fully immersed in the direct experience of "the absolute" there is no "understanding" and no one who "understands." If there is one who understands and something that is understood, that is not "it."

[steve]

15 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I may forget my son's birthday some day, but I doubt I could ever forget the impact of that silent roar.  It dwarved all other experiences in this life.

 

Thank you for sharing this powerful experience.

It puts me in mind of experiments and experiences with anechoic rooms:

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/anechoic-chamber-worlds-quietest-room/index.html#:~:text="The longest continuous time anyone,within the first few seconds."&text=Global Privacy Control (GPC) signal detected.

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'm quite certain @stirling already understands this but I think it's worth mentioning that even when fully immersed in the direct experience of "the absolute" there is no "understanding" and no one who "understands." If there is one who understands and something that is understood, that is not "it."

 

I completely understand you.

[stirling]

40 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'm quite certain @stirling already understands this but I think it's worth mentioning that even when fully immersed in the direct experience of "the absolute" there is no "understanding" and no one who "understands." If there is one who understands and something that is understood, that is not "it."

 

Yes! There is just "experiencing" with no experiencer. All dualities are dissolved. Thanks for that Steve.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Yes! There is just "experiencing" with no experiencer. All dualities are dissolved. Thanks for that Steve.

 

I note the parentheses but there can be no experiencing of the absolute - as the 'ex' means 'out' and there is no out of it.

 

 

[old3bob]

the escape velocity for the broad range of souls on earth with our broad range of earthly karma's is pretty high!  In the meantime and with help that doesn't mean visits are not possible.  

Edited April 14, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

crap about some being soul-less.

 

That rather depends upon what "soul" means.

 

In the Christian usage the soul is the same as the kabbalistic Neshama - the higher mental body - of the five souls in the standard human structure.

 

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3194/jewish/What-Is-a-Soul-Neshamah.htm

 

It is useful to distinguish the higher mental body from the devic intelligence that may use that body.

 

That devic intelligence is sometimes called the guardian angel or the holy guardian angel.

 

It is that devic entity that may abandon the human - for example in severe autism cases.

 

The lower soul bodies continue but those too may be abandoned by their devic intelligences including in severe dementia.

 

The abandoned soul bodies retain their elemental intelligences since those are implicit in the energy-substance of those bodies.

 

The higher soul bodies (buddhic and atmic) are not very active in most humans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I note the parentheses but there can be no experiencing of the absolute - as the 'ex' means 'out' and there is no out of it.

 

 

 

I perienced  the absolute once .

[steve]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I note the parentheses but there can be no experiencing of the absolute - as the 'ex' means 'out' and there is no out of it.

 

 

 

I agree with you both theoretically and experientially. I like how my teacher describes enlightening or awakening experiences. It is not so much that we experience “the absolute” but rather we experience the releasing of obstacles. What we experience is simply the opposite of what was previously blocking us, which can be quite dramatic and profound but is nevertheless still a human experience. 

[old3bob]

and there is a related saying that goes something like,...instead of a human having a spiritual experience, we are a spirit having a human experience.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

we are a spirit having a human experience

 

That gives a choice between the bottom-up view from the human and the top-down view into the human.

 

Humans know to use parallel processing and multiple redundancy to have efficient and reliable results.  What does the spirit use when having a human experience?

 

 

[stirling]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

I note the parentheses but there can be no experiencing of the absolute - as the 'ex' means 'out' and there is no out of it.

 

Fair enough. I'm pleased the parens made it clear to you anyway.