Encephalon Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) This subject has been lingering within since I first read "Buddhism Without Beliefs" by Stephen Batchelor twenty years ago. "As soon as awareness finds itself baffled and puzzled by rainfall, a chair, the breath, they present themselves as questions. Habitual assumptions and descriptions suddenly fail and we hear our stammering voices cry out: "What is this?" Or simply: "What?" or "Why?" Or perhaps no words at all, just "?" The questioning that emerges from unknowing differs from conventional inquiry in that it has no interest in finding an answer... This perplexed questioning is the central path itself. In refusing to be drawn into the answers of "yes" or "no," it let's go of the extremes of affirmation and negation, something and nothing. Like life itself, it just keeps going, free from the need to hold to any fixed positions - including those of Buddhism... Perplexity keeps awarness on its toes. It reveals experience as transparent, radiant, and unimpeded. Questioning is the track on which the centered person moves." This is a profoundly important point and I fear I might tarnish the subject with the following observations, but curiosity seems to be a fairly accurate indicator of how deeply connected people are to the world. (In fact, one writer has equated spirituality with the feeling of connectedness, and ecology with the science of connectedness, which I thought was insightfully cool.) We all know people who have unquenchable curiosity and they are a delight to be around, and we see others with virtually no curiosity at all aspiring to positions of power; Sarah Palin comes to mind, a woman of virtually no interests, no curiosity, no scholarship of any kind. And of course, we have Our Dear Leader in the White House, a man who champions the failure of being even fleetingly interested in anything beyond his own immediate self-interest and whose spiritual inclinations are essentially non-existent; he's simply not connected to the world and possesses no empathy for others. This dearth of empathy often appears as an absence of intelligence itself, but in the final analysis, empathy and intelligence become indistinguishable, just as the Buddhists have claimed from the very beginning; wisdom and compassion eventually merge. Distinctions between the two impulses blur, and what is most loving often proves to be the most wise. Edited June 23, 2020 by Encephalon typos 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted June 23, 2020 Thanks for sharing this topic encephalon. Some years back I noticed a subtle, but potent shift in my process. The bouyant centeredness of questions that have no firm answers replaced my former insatiable desire for certainty in perception and thought. It was born of an unsought rise in Deeply Seeded Doubt of every aspect of life formerly taken as 'understood'. This Doubt has been invaluable in freeing awareness from the harness of assumption and has aided enormously in dissolving former assumptions of my own true nature, not only formerly held notions of right and wrong, or how the world is. Being not only satisfied, but genuinely fulfilled by the arising of questions that generate no firm answers, or seem to be unanswerable through current awareness... and then abiding in the answerlessness of them has become central to my process and is liberating at a depth I could not have forseen. Keen, Radical Doubting has naturally given rise to a bouyant dancing with answerless questions. Often as you alluded to... the questions are no longer even arising as worded thoughts... but a pure, simplistic unworded query that is half questioning and half joyful observation of "......?" 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Encephalon said: The Relationship between Curiosity and Spirituality Hi Encephalon, Thank you for the sensitivity shared on the thread ~ I can almost feel what you are trying to put across. 2 hours ago, Encephalon said: Perplexity keeps awareness on its toes. It reveals experience as transparent, radiant, and unimpeded. Questioning is the track on which the centered person moves." To me experience tops everything ~ experiential knowledge is key. Questioning is the track on which the centered person moves. I try and move thus in my attempts to connect with plants, birds... The outcomes? I can feel their connections but not with words. Many years ago I went through a very dark patch trying to complete my study and a lizard came to help me. I have a photo of this lizard on my computer dashboard which I have failed to download onto this message. I can send the photo to anyone who wish to have a look ~ please liaise with me through PM. (Nintendao and Creighton ~ I have just send the photo to you both through email. Please confirm receipt. Thank you.) 3 hours ago, Encephalon said: This dearth of empathy often appears as an absence of intelligence itself, but in the final analysis, empathy and intelligence become indistinguishable, just as the Buddhists have claimed from the very beginning; wisdom and compassion eventually merge. When I first tried to chant The Great Compassion Mantra ~ I did not understand word (still up to today) but tears just flowed... I am now chanting the mantra re COVID-19. Keep safe and well. - Anand 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 23, 2020 51 minutes ago, silent thunder said: Often as you alluded to... the questions are no longer even arising as worded thoughts... but a pure, simplistic unworded query that is half questioning and half joyful observation of "......?" Hi Creighton, "......?"........."realization through feelings?" - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted June 24, 2020 not a feeling, not a sensation, not an emotion, not a thought. awareness... tzujan... of itself, no layering, no judgement raw being 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 24, 2020 4 hours ago, silent thunder said: awareness... Hi Creighton, Is awareness heightened by software, hardware, firmware...? But beware of their various viruses. Good to logout, lock-down... From time to time. The forest is logged... into emptiness ~ a new awareness? - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted June 24, 2020 Great point and subject for discussion. I once read a book that hammered this point home for me titled: The Question to Life's Answers: Spirituality Beyond Belief by Steven Harrison. The basic point being that questions are alive, full of potential, and can serve as our path. Answers are dead ends, rather than open us they close us to new and unexpected possibilities. In the tradition I currently follow, it is taken one step further. No need for questions, no need for answers, not even a need for curiosity. Conceptual and intellectual constructs are allowed to be as they are without engaging or following after the mind's activity and content. Just be... Leave everything as it is and simply be... In a sense, it is a form of curiosity disengaged from the discursive mind. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, steve said: In the tradition I currently follow, it is taken one step further. No need for questions, no need for answers, not even a need for curiosity. Conceptual and intellectual constructs are allowed to be as they are without engaging or following after the mind's activity and content. Just be... Leave everything as it is and simply be... In a sense, it is a form of curiosity disengaged from the discursive mind. This! More and more in my life, without seeking it, or cultivating it... This is it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted June 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, silent thunder said: More and more in my life, without seeking it, or cultivating it... This is it. It just happens ~ with you aware in the moment? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 9:39 AM, steve said: No need for questions, no need for answers, not even a need for curiosity. Conceptual and intellectual constructs are allowed to be as they are without engaging or following after the mind's activity and content. Just be... Leave everything as it is and simply be... In a sense, it is a form of curiosity disengaged from the discursive mind. In the Dzogchen teachings I have been exposed to, it is emphasized that being completely open and allowing everything to be without clear experience of rigpa can turn into a dullness which is actually the opposite of rigpa. And that one way to turn an experience of stillness into an experience of rigpa is by using questions, such as, "Who is experiencing this stillness?" Also, "Where is the mind located?" Is this distinction emphasized in your lineage? How about the method of questioning as a way to induce rigpa? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted June 25, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 3:34 PM, silent thunder said: Some years back I noticed a subtle, but potent shift in my process. The bouyant centeredness of questions that have no firm answers replaced my former insatiable desire for certainty in perception and thought. It was born of an unsought rise in Deeply Seeded Doubt of every aspect of life formerly taken as 'understood'. This Doubt has been invaluable in freeing awareness from the harness of assumption and has aided enormously in dissolving former assumptions of my own true nature, not only formerly held notions of right and wrong, or how the world is. Being not only satisfied, but genuinely fulfilled by the arising of questions that generate no firm answers, or seem to be unanswerable through current awareness... and then abiding in the answerlessness of them has become central to my process and is liberating at a depth I could not have forseen. Keen, Radical Doubting has naturally given rise to a bouyant dancing with answerless questions. Often as you alluded to... the questions are no longer even arising as worded thoughts... but a pure, simplistic unworded query that is half questioning and half joyful observation of "......?" May I share this on a small group for people focused on awakening via inquiry that I participate in? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Creation said: In the Dzogchen teachings I have been exposed to, it is emphasized that being completely open and allowing everything to be without clear experience of rigpa can turn into a dullness which is actually the opposite of rigpa. And that one way to turn an experience of stillness into an experience of rigpa is by using questions, such as, "Who is experiencing this stillness?" Also, "Where is the mind located?" Is this distinction emphasized in your lineage? How about the method of questioning as a way to induce rigpa? What I mention in that post is the core practice of dzogchen which is to simply rest in the Nature of Mind, completely open and clear without intentionally engaging the discursive mind at all. As you say, it's not where we start. There are things that are necessary for most people before that, otherwise it is very easy to get off the path or never find it in the first place. More often than not we think we are resting in Nature but actually the mind is subtly active and we are simply wasting our time. Step one is the preliminary practices. Step two is introduction to the Nature of Mind. The first part of this introduction involves settling and stabilizing the busy mind. This is called zhiné in Bön, or calm abiding. It's comparable to shamatha. It is meditation on a fixed object, typically the Tibetan letter ཨ. Once we have achieved and stabilized that state of calm abiding, only then do we begin to look back at the one who is looking. Similar to vipassana. If we try to do that before there is stability, the mind is far too active to really observe carefully. There are different approaches in Bön, one of which is to ask questions about the nature of that experience as we meditate on the fixed object. Questions like where is my mind? what color is it? what size? can I show it to anyone? can I measure it? who, what, and where is the one who is looking at the ཨ? who is looking at the one who is looking? etc... In the old days the master would literally send the student out into the wilds of the Himalayas and tell them not to come back until they find it. That doesn't work so well for the sophisticated and educated minds of the West. Different story when teaching uneducated yak herders or young, naive monks. When we look long and hard enough, we may be fortunate enough to find it. What do we find? We find absolutely nothing. That is the empty aspect. And the longer and harder we look, the more real and conclusive that realization is. Just to read and think about it is very superficial. One needs to do that work. Stabilize the mind and then deeply look at it, nakedly and directly. And even though we find nothing at all that we can identify as mind, we need to ask what is it that is aware of that nothing? It is aware of itself, that is the clarity aspect, that is rigpa. And the conclusion cannot be an intellectual one, that is essentially worthless. It needs to be a direct experience of emptiness and clarity. It needs to be so definitive that we no longer have any doubt about what it means to rest in Nature. Once we reach that certainty, that is the meaning of introduction to the Nature of Mind. I wrote the long answer for the benefit of those who may have interest in dzogchen but have not been exposed to any of its teachings. Edited June 25, 2020 by steve 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted June 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Creation said: May I share this on a small group for people focused on awakening via inquiry that I participate in? Certainly friend. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted July 4, 2020 "Genius sees patterns in the world. Madmen impose patterns on the world." Forgot where I read this, can't attribute, but it sure describes contemporary cultural divisions, at least in America, yes? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrpasserby Posted July 4, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 1:34 PM, silent thunder said: Thanks for sharing this topic encephalon. Some years back I noticed a subtle, but potent shift in my process. The bouyant centeredness of questions that have no firm answers replaced my former insatiable desire for certainty in perception and thought. It was born of an unsought rise in Deeply Seeded Doubt of every aspect of life formerly taken as 'understood'. This Doubt has been invaluable in freeing awareness from the harness of assumption and has aided enormously in dissolving former assumptions of my own true nature, not only formerly held notions of right and wrong, or how the world is. Being not only satisfied, but genuinely fulfilled by the arising of questions that generate no firm answers, or seem to be unanswerable through current awareness... and then abiding in the answerlessness of them has become central to my process and is liberating at a depth I could not have forseen. Keen, Radical Doubting has naturally given rise to a bouyant dancing with answerless questions. Often as you alluded to... the questions are no longer even arising as worded thoughts... but a pure, simplistic unworded query that is half questioning and half joyful observation of "......?" In my experience: things really started to pop for me after the 2nd earth chakka was brought on line during the four blood moons of 2015, then the Giant combination of the harmonic resonance of the earth chakkas began to align the harmonic resonance within the Small individual chakkas of the earths population, slowly aligning as many as are able to receive it, with the greater collective consciousness of the earth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted July 5, 2020 On 6/26/2020 at 7:21 AM, steve said: The first part of this introduction involves settling and stabilizing the busy mind. This is called zhiné in Bön, or calm abiding. It's comparable to shamatha. It is meditation on a fixed object, typically the Tibetan letter ཨ. Once we have achieved and stabilized that state of calm abiding, only then do we begin to look back at the one who is looking. Similar to vipassana. If we try to do that before there is stability, the mind is far too active to really observe carefully. On 6/26/2020 at 7:21 AM, steve said: There are different approaches in Bön, one of which is to ask questions about the nature of that experience as we meditate on the fixed object. Questions like where is my mind? what color is it? what size? can I show it to anyone? can I measure it? who, what, and where is the one who is looking at the ཨ? who is looking at the one who is looking? etc... Quote In the Pali canon, Ānanda states that he knows monastics to achieve nibbana in one of four ways: one develops insight preceded by serenity (Pali: samatha-pubbaṇgamaṃ vipassanaṃ), one develops serenity preceded by insight (vipassanā-pubbaṇgamaṃ samathaṃ), one develops serenity and insight in a stepwise fashion (samatha-vipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ), one's mind becomes seized by excitation about the dhamma and, as a consequence, develops serenity and abandons the fetters (dhamma-uddhacca-viggahitaṃ mānasaṃ hoti). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat One can be lucky enough to have insight into the nature of mind that leads to serenity. One can develop serenity that leads to making discovery of the insight more obvious. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
