When I meditate

[thelerner]

A new member wrote, 'When I meditate I lose myself in my mind..'

 

If by that he means too many thoughts, then that is indeed problem 1, in meditation.  I think most teachers these days are in the 'let thoughts settle, by themselves' camp.  Observe, don't feed or judge, let them go.. return to the quiet mind. 

 

Early in my meditation years I'd fall into trance where time would go by quickly, yet that trance state wasn't too far from the dopey state.   These days I'll strive for a 'brighter awareness' when I meditate.  I'll also take more time to see that my bodies comfortable.  A zafu of the right size, cushioning under my legs, scratch what needs to scratched, burp, fart.  Having a body that's exercised a bit seems to help. 

 

When you meditate.. what do you do?  How do you prepare? 

[Earl Grey]

An important point to consider is that it always depends on the type of meditation. Another point is to understand that meditation is such a broadly used term that using an app or a guided YouTube meditation video are quite different from standing in Zhan Zhuang or Osho dynamic meditation, and then Zazen is also quite different from Vipasana. Then the practitioner and their personal background must be considered as it’s difficult to assess without nuances and details.

 

In general, I am in a meditative state 25/8 because I am doing mantra silently in my mind, standing in Zhan Zhuang, sitting in Golden Flower, sleeping qigong, or martial movement meditation.
 

Sometimes it’s focused one-pointed meditation, sometimes it’s release—a practitioner needs to understand who they are, what they are doing, and how their specific meditation system suits them.

[silent thunder]

Stillness.  Emptiness.  In these when the mind operates, it is not fed, not avoided, just observed.

 

Walking meditation is similar, thoughts arise and pass away like clouds, unfed, unfettered.  Breathing and stepping, flow and presence.

 

Five Element/Third Eye Pathing.  Mind is heavily engaged, focused and precise, utilized to organize and energize the organs and the path.  Working with the pores, the central orifice, Hui Yin, Bai Hui until all varying qi are placed in the pot, usually about 45-60 minutes.  At this point all dissolves into stillness/emptiness for the final couple hours.

 

Qi Gong.  Mind skims along the surface usually, self correcting form postures and linking flow of breath to movements, but it's very light mind.  Like a small bird skimming along the surface of water.

 

Wu Ji:  no mind, movement arises spontaneously, coming and going of its own inertia and leaving no mark on mind, but body sings.

 

 

 

I recall my inner mind sharing an insight about the shifting relationship i have with mind.  It came as an image from one of my Totem Animal Spirits, the Red Tailed Hawk.

 

The jist of it is:  In flight, Hawks have no feet.  Folded and forgotten, until the moment of the strike, or the perch, when they materialize and administer the Rule of Claw, never let go, until task is complete... then again, when in flight, folded and forgotten.

 

As life unfolds of itself, in raw presence... without pressure, seeking or avoidance, the various states of meditation follow off the cushion.  My mind operates like a Hawk's feet.  When conditions require it, it is sharp, focused and grasps fiercely releasing only when tasks requiring it are complete.  When not needed, it folds up and is forgotten, as invisible as a Hawk's feet in flight.  

 

 

 

[ilumairen]

27 minutes ago, thelerner said:

A new member wrote, 'When I meditate I lose myself in my mind..'

 

I'm curious if the individual is losing themselves in emptiness, or in thought. 

 

TWR has teachings available regarding both.

 

[silent thunder]

Good point Ilumairen.

 

Reminds me of the importance for me of being able to distinguish between meditating mind, mindfulness, mindlessness and trance/hypnosis.  A vital distinction to arrive at.

[RiverSnake]

Lot of different types of meditations...many of which are not mind based....such as chi kung. Too make a contrast....the state you most do not want to be in is Chaos. 

 

Chaos can emerge from the psyche, external interference or we tap into a sensitive part of our sphere and need to take 2 steps back. Depending on the practice our awareness can be harnessed in a number of ways....but being in a chaotic state is not ideal.  

Edited April 16, 2020 by RiverSnake

[C T]

I'm not even very sure what to label the sort of meditation I do, because its not even anything formal. 

 

The closest description, I think, would be spontaneous basic wakefulness. Or in Zen, it would be close to chop wood, carry water. 

 

Its a very passive approach to resting the mind in its original nature, which is the fusion of emptiness and cognizance. 

 

Once this experiential insight is reached - that of recognizing with some conviction the true essence of mind - thoughts no longer have any foothold in my field of awareness. They can come and go as they please, or I could manifest thoughts as they're needed without the stress of worrying if certain thought patterns will fester, take root, and accumulate karma over time.  Old karmic imprints are still stored within this mental continuum, something which used to bother me as I figured, gosh... so many lifetimes of karma there, how am I going to cope.... but with the realization of the above-mentioned basic wakefulness, these anxieties and emotional knots naturally liberates spontaneously in the same manner as they arise to try and ripple that original space of quiescence that meditation helped me to recognize. Now, the ripples simply arise and dissipate on their own volition. All this with the relaxed patience of a kindly grandfather who watches over his grandkids' innocent antics. 

 

I know some here who know my online demeanour may wonder about my claim, and thats really okay - I think a lot of people have the idea that seasoned meditators are meant to fit a certain persona - they have to be like this, they have to be like that, they must do this and that, well, thats quite normal. But when one has tasted what release and expansion and freedom means, then the grasping at this sort of dualistic judgements will cease naturally. The discriminatory function can still be called upon, but the grasping or rejection aspect loses its hold. It allows for greater malleability and is not dependent on fixed reference points. Underlying this expansive awareness is the knowing that nothing is ever what they seem, that things are in constant flux, and what may appear solid and unyielding today may just release themselves by the sheer force thats inherent in their own state. Tempted as I may to impose and hasten their change to bring about a result that I wish to have, I know with certainty that this 'doing' is what gives birth to cause and effect. Just relax, and change takes care of itself. 

 

 

Late edit... Just remembered the words of my friend Tharchin Zangpo which sums up in so few words what I wished to convey with so many - "With eyes open, mind conjures up the dream-like realms of life. With eyes closed, mind conjures up the dream-like realms of sleep and death."

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by C T

[oak]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

Just relax, and change takes care of itself. 

 

Brilliant CT, It made my day.

Thanks.

[forestofemptiness]

Re: trance and clarity--- I had a similar experience when I was practicing zazen. I was able to cultivate a very tranquil, dark, peaceful inner state. I later stumbled on a Tibetan text that described the state perfectly--- as a state of ignorance! Cultivating such states were said to be the key to rebirth as an animal. I think it is not unlike the Taoist criticism of "ghost Zen." I think my teacher was not up to the task of recognizing and guiding me in the proper direction.

 

Having said that, I think zazen is a very advanced practice, even if most are not really capable of it. 

 

What I do depends on what is going on in life. Sometimes, meditation is just a matter of "checking in" if I'm busy and things are flowing quickly. Other times, it may be more about deepening when I get sick of the red dust of the world. Some days it may be more analytic, others less so. 

 

One thing I've learned is that meditation is best without expectations, especially expectations of gain. There is a saying that for some people, realization comes all at once, like a sudden thunderstorm. For others, it is like walking into a fog and slowly getting wet. Either way, you end up soaked.  

 

21 hours ago, thelerner said:

Early in my meditation years I'd fall into trance where time would go by quickly, yet that trance state wasn't too far from the dopey state.   These days I'll strive for a 'brighter awareness' when I meditate.  I'll also take more time to see that my bodies comfortable.  A zafu of the right size, cushioning under my legs, scratch what needs to scratched, burp, fart.  Having a body that's exercised a bit seems to help. 

 

When you meditate.. what do you do?  How do you prepare? 

 

[steve]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:27 PM, thelerner said:

A new member wrote, 'When I meditate I lose myself in my mind..'

 

If by that he means too many thoughts, then that is indeed problem 1, in meditation.  I think most teachers these days are in the 'let thoughts settle, by themselves' camp.  Observe, don't feed or judge, let them go.. return to the quiet mind. 

 

Early in my meditation years I'd fall into trance where time would go by quickly, yet that trance state wasn't too far from the dopey state.   These days I'll strive for a 'brighter awareness' when I meditate.  I'll also take more time to see that my bodies comfortable.  A zafu of the right size, cushioning under my legs, scratch what needs to scratched, burp, fart.  Having a body that's exercised a bit seems to help. 

 

When you meditate.. what do you do?  How do you prepare? 

 

When I meditate, I don’t lose myself.

I find myself.

 

I sometimes do make preparations... sitting or standing a certain way, breathing and body movements, lots of supports that I find useful and beautiful. Equally necessary to integrate, to meditate without preparation - life becomes the practice.

 

The doing for me is non-doing:

- don’t chase the past

- don’t create the future

- don’t change the present, externally or internally. Leave it as it is.

 

Simply maintain clarity and openness.

 

[forestofemptiness]

I have heard some Dzogchen teachers report that non-doing practices, by themselves, will cause deep releases of bodily and energetic blockages. However, I not found that to be the case in my practice. 

 

I find myself thinking of the old dichotomy that we go to Buddhism for help with the mind, and Taoism for help with the body (with the case being that Buddhism starts with the mind, but eventually encompasses the body, and vice versa). Have you found your resting/relaxing/non-doing type practices sufficient in themselves to deal with "conventional" problems such as bodily problems, mood problems, etc.? I assume CT based on your post, that you jsut let these things come. However, I know Steve has a past history with Taoist practices, and may be practicing trul khor. 

 

Personally, I have found the need to alternate resting practices (i.e. Mahamudra) with intentional practices (qigong, tai chi, etc.). I have further found that the Taoist practices are healing my body and enhancing my mood in a way that Buddhist practices were not able. 

 

I wanted to get your thoughts (and the thoughts of anyone else) if you're willing to share. 

 

On 4/16/2020 at 12:28 PM, C T said:

I'm not even very sure what to label the sort of meditation I do, because its not even anything formal. 

 

The closest description, I think, would be spontaneous basic wakefulness. Or in Zen, it would be close to chop wood, carry water. 

 

Its a very passive approach to resting the mind in its original nature, which is the fusion of emptiness and cognizance. 

 

 

On 4/18/2020 at 7:34 PM, steve said:

 

The doing for me is non-doing:

- don’t chase the past

- don’t create the future

- don’t change the present, externally or internally. Leave it as it is.

 

Simply maintain clarity and openness.

 

 

[steve]

22 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have heard some Dzogchen teachers report that non-doing practices, by themselves, will cause deep releases of bodily and energetic blockages. However, I not found that to be the case in my practice. 

 

I find myself thinking of the old dichotomy that we go to Buddhism for help with the mind, and Taoism for help with the body (with the case being that Buddhism starts with the mind, but eventually encompasses the body, and vice versa). Have you found your resting/relaxing/non-doing type practices sufficient in themselves to deal with "conventional" problems such as bodily problems, mood problems, etc.? I assume CT based on your post, that you jsut let these things come. However, I know Steve has a past history with Taoist practices, and may be practicing trul khor. 

 

Personally, I have found the need to alternate resting practices (i.e. Mahamudra) with intentional practices (qigong, tai chi, etc.). I have further found that the Taoist practices are healing my body and enhancing my mood in a way that Buddhist practices were not able. 

 

I wanted to get your thoughts (and the thoughts of anyone else) if you're willing to share. 

 

 

 

 

I would say that yes, for me at this point resting in the Nature would be enough to deal with conventional problems if that were the only tool I had to work with. No question it is the single most powerful and effective practice in my toolkit. I do have other tools and I do use them regularly. Most dzogchenpas incorporate other practices during their times of formal practice, at least in Bön. For most this includes breathing exercises (9 Breathings of Purification, Tummo) and breathing exercises combined with body movement (Tsal Lung and other Trul Khor practices). I've been taught to incorporate some of these into every practice session. The meditation practice can still be just as effective without, in my experience, but these practices are very supportive and do enrich the overall experience for body, speech, and mind.

 

Currently, I do use other practices as well. I had a long history with taijiquan, xingyi, bagua, qigong, and neigong before finding Bön. I let those practices go for a long time. The Covid pandemic was a stimulus for me to reconnect with those practices, primarily taiji, qigong, and some limited neigong. I do feel there is something in those practices that is very healthy, healing, and balancing for body and mind. Part of it is simply the physical exercise and breathing exercise. Another aspect is how conducive they are to supporting the meditative mindset. So I bring the same dzogchen method to the table when engaging in those practices. 

 

Another point worth making is that these practices for me are not simply tools. It's not just about using them to move towards a goal. They are also the goal itself. They are done for the sake of doing, being, connecting, and experiencing. All sorts of things move through me as I engage in practice and the ability to connect and fully experience what is happening is enhanced by the nature of these practices. More than just tools, they are like precious works of art. There is just the right piece of music for a given mood, just the right piece of art to evoke a particular feeling, memory, or potential that lies dormant inside. They can be like a finely crafted poem, going beyond the conceptual mind and opening us to something brand new. So I don't only do these things for any particular outcome or to simply deal with problems. They can be marvelously fulfilling in and of themselves, unleash creative potential, and open new and unexpected doors.

 

[steve]

48 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have heard some Dzogchen teachers report that non-doing practices, by themselves, will cause deep releases of bodily and energetic blockages. However, I not found that to be the case in my practice. 

 

I wanted to get your thoughts (and the thoughts of anyone else) if you're willing to share. 

 

More about dzogchen, this is mainly for people who may try to play with this without expert guidance.

As mentioned above, I was taught to start every practice with the 9 Breathings practice and Tsa Lung Trul Khor.

In addition to this, dzogchen is traditionally taught as being 100% dependent on practicing Guru Yoga.

And all dzogchenpas first go through the very rigorous practices of the Ngöndro.

My teacher has created a secular path that allows people uncomfortable with Guru Yoga and more "religious" feeling practices to practice dzogchen effectively but it is still a challenge to get the practice to really work and still requires some degree of guidance.

 

The reason I mention all this is that simply engaging in these "non-doing" practices and expecting them to lead to liberation of our physical, mental, and emotional blockages is not realistic for most. It is a long path to reach a point where the "non-doing" skill is cultivated to a point where it is effective. To get to that point, engaging these other physical, mental, and energetic methods is critically important. They need to be done properly and one needs to see specific signs that they are having the intended effects.

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

2

On 4/16/2020 at 11:27 AM, thelerner said:

A new member wrote, 'When I meditate I lose myself in my mind..'

 

If by that he means too many thoughts, then that is indeed problem 1, in meditation.  I think most teachers these days are in the 'let thoughts settle, by themselves' camp.  Observe, don't feed or judge, let them go.. return to the quiet mind. 

 

Early in my meditation years I'd fall into trance where time would go by quickly, yet that trance state wasn't too far from the dopey state.

I can resonate with this. I found that especially during the early/intermediate period of Taijiquan practice - there is a body high that can arise from it, and it induces a mental "high" as well. That can overwhelm the mind/senses into ecstatic feelings, but it lacks clarity. 

On 4/16/2020 at 11:27 AM, thelerner said:

These days I'll strive for a 'brighter awareness' when I meditate.  I'll also take more time to see that my bodies comfortable.  A zafu of the right size, cushioning under my legs, scratch what needs to scratched, burp, fart.  Having a body that's exercised a bit seems to help. 

Yes...Clarity is clear. Nothing more is needed, nothing can be taken away from it  

On 4/16/2020 at 11:27 AM, thelerner said:

 

When you meditate.. what do you do?  How do you prepare? 

Just be, as I am. Sometimes the mind is stirred up, so I might do some Taijiquan or standing to release and let the mind settle. And then just be, as I am.  

 

[C T]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I have heard some Dzogchen teachers report that non-doing practices, by themselves, will cause deep releases of bodily and energetic blockages. However, I not found that to be the case in my practice. 

Hi! Appreciate the interesting reflection and response to what was shared. 

 

Perhaps what follows below is moot, knowing that you already have much knowledge on mahamudra and dzogchen. But I'll go ahead and reiterate it just to get a certain flow going. Thanks for the patience. 

 

In essence, Dzogchen is simply a term that roughly translates as 'a realization of wakeful awareness' or something to that effect, and this wide body of Maha Ati/Dzogchen/Mahamudra/Madhyamika teachings, condensed into maha, anu and ati yoga, are like props, or support that are available to practitioners. As expedients, they should not be confused as means to bring about the realization of the nature of mind, rigpa, which is basic wakefulness beyond the three times, but their access are meant to engender gradual stability post-recognition - after rigpa is introduced by a vidyadhara or qualified awareness holder. No amount of intellectual probing, no matter how profound, will yield that direct experiential knowing of rigpa. For most practitioners, this introduction is merely the precursor to years of patient practice, but for a select few, they are able to bypass this arduous phase - fortunately, or unfortunately, I'm not one of them. 

 

Quote

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Have you found your resting/relaxing/non-doing type practices sufficient in themselves to deal with "conventional" problems such as bodily problems, mood problems, etc.? I assume CT based on your post, that you just let these things come.

 

 

The short answer is, yes, it is sufficient. But it bears mentioning that there was a long process taken to get to this point. Hundreds of thousands of accumulations of mantras,  prostrations, visualizations - all encompassed in the merit-based Ngondro practice - its that long. I began this practice in 1996, and completed 3 cycles of the Ngondro in 2017. Since then, it can be said that I've somewhat managed to stabilize the View of rigpa, confirmed by the contents of what appear in dreams, which tally with the visualizations that is consciously induced in the waking state during all those years of practice. I've confirmed with my teacher that this is a reliable sign of stability in the View. Now I'm quite confident of what visions will appear in my consciousness at the threshold of the bardo, since it is stated in the Book of Great Liberation that the visions arising in the transitional phases of the bardo of dying is akin to the visions of what generally appears in our dreams. 

 

Speaking of the Book of Great Liberation, im reminded of a video that I happened upon years ago that really helped to deepen my practice. It was integral to my realization towards the concluding end of Ngondro. It probably wont mean as much to anyone else because maybe the resonance may differ based on individual proclivities and karmic propensities. Anyway, I'll leave it below just to give a feel of what Padmasambhava taught with regards to liberating the mind into its own essence. 

 

When one is able to penetrate with sufficient profundity into the experiential truth of transiency and impermanence, the values placed on what is normally regarded as crucial to one's well-being is radically transformed. Things that otherwise are deemed real and important, seeming states of discomfort and other mundane feelings that tend to generate doubt (whether we are doing enough mostly) due to remaining subtle traces of dualistic tendencies still embedded in the mindstream no longer matter as much. These are easily cut through with the sword of non-dual wisdom and compassion. 

 

I'll conclude with a teaching extract of Longchenpa's, taken from the book, Finding Rest in Illusion. This can also serve as a very helpful contemplative aid: "Things are dream-like; in the very moment they appear, no intrinsic being at all, and yet, their features are not lost to their appearance. There is no hindrance. Carefully investigate these dream-like and momentary forms - in every aspect, empty. They are neither false nor true; not existent, yet not non-existent; beyond all ontological extremes. They are like space. Beyond both thought and word, know that they are primordially pure. Thus, by means of such a view, you garner clear understanding that all things in samsara, and nirvana, are like dreams." 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by C T

[freeform]

16 hours ago, steve said:

simply engaging in these "non-doing" practices and expecting them to lead to liberation of our physical, mental, and emotional blockages is not realistic for most. It is a long path to reach a point where the "non-doing" skill is cultivated to a point where it is effective. To get to that point, engaging these other physical, mental, and energetic methods is critically important. They need to be done properly and one needs to see specific signs that they are having the intended effects.

 

Completely agree.

 

These arts are very much based on a cause and effect principle... the causes need to be in you - generally achieved by "doing" type practices. The effect part of the equation arises as part of stillness and non-doing type practices. Wei - Wu Wei

 

Sometimes we think that the non-doing practices is where all the good stuff happens - but that's just one side of the coin. If the causes are not present in you, then nothing will arise in non-doing... The actual change happens during the uncomfortable, long and arduous training... but the fruits of that change can only bloom during stillness.