Mikey_Power_Up

Spinal Breathing Gives Kundalini Awakening

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It seems like for me, that spinal breathing has been the only technique that gives a strong kundalini response with episodes where I've had an electric automatic gushing of upward river powerful flow.

Other techniques seems to just made my channels clearer and easy to work with and more fluid. Even with MCO, i get a lot of automatic flow, but unless i've started with tons of spinal breathing i don't get the electric river experience. Even much loved techniques like 5 point breathing seems to have more of a clearing and purifying effect.  Spinal breathing charge up for 20 mins then MCO does have a powerful effect on me. 

It seems like the safety controls and purifying techniques of KAP + the more direct approach of AYPs spinal breathing makes for a good combination.

Although i've been warned to be careful mixing techniques, the grounding movements of Celestial Qigons have been invaluable with cooling down. So--- Spinal breathing to get the electric river started, KAP to smooth out my channels and let me move energy easier, and celestial qigong grounding forms to cool down. 

Kinda more of a braindump than anything. 

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Be very careful about the mixture you are doing. 

 

I can't emphasize enough the risks.

 

 

 

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@Earl Grey

 

Why is it said that mixing Fire and Water path techniques is dangerous? 
I've read about that briefly a few times, and my natural line of logic is always that the the grounding water techniques could counter act the upward emphasis of fire path techniques. Is it an issue of too much energy? 

When it comes to trance states and entity attack, do you think clearing and banishing practices could be a failsafe? 

Edited by Mikey_Power_Up

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Just now, Mikey_Power_Up said:

Why is said that mixing Fire and Water path techniques is dangerous? 

 

Just so you know, fire and water path is a made-up term--it's not from any formal Taoist lineage, even though someone like Frantzis uses it for his own material. 

 

1 minute ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I've read about that briefly a few times, and my natural line of logic is always that the the grounding water techniques could counter act the upward emphasis of fire path techniques. Is it an issue of too much energy? 

 

This sounds more like an anecdotal comparison, as I do not know which techniques you are calling water or fire, and the names alone do not necessarily reflect their nature accurately. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

When it comes to trance states and entity attack, do you think clearing and banishing practices could be a failsafe? 

 

Nope--it's way more complicated than that because magical practices like the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram is for magic not qi. Qi and magic work a lot differently, and qi works with one's natural energy, whereas a lot of magic tends to work with spirits. 

 

Granted, some people who are advanced know how to make these things work, but you're risking qi deviation from what little I see so far short of having more details on what you actually do, since just calling something fire or water isn't enough to help analyze adequately. 

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@Earl Grey I'm only doing spinal breathing, MCO, a bit of KAP practices (5 point breathing, secret smile, their version of tree shaking) and the closing and main grounding technique from FiveElementTao's Celestial Neigong (he doesn't like the idea of mixing either.)

Although, I've wanted to meet Jenny Lamb for years, I don't think I would pay her 10,000 for a clearing if I had such issues! 

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Just now, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@Earl Grey I'm only doing spinal breathing, MCO, a bit of KAP practices (5 point breathing, secret smile, their version of tree shaking) and the closing and main grounding technique from FiveElementTao's Celestial Neigong (he doesn't like the idea of mixing either.)

Although, I've wanted to meet Jenny Lamb for years, I don't think I would pay her 10,000 for a clearing if I had such issues! 


I don’t know spinal breathing, but there are many variations of MCO and it’s a controversial practice to say the least as it can cause damage to beginners, which is why I take issue with Chia and Winn.

 

KAP I still have no context. Freeform might be a better person to comment.

 

As for clearing, there are far more affordable ways to deal qi deviation, but that won’t undo the damage to the psyche so easily, so prevention is key.

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@Earl Grey
I will argue that working with the secret smile would give some protection against damage to the psyche. I believe that there's a lot of priming in 'this world' when it comes to expectations, warnings and probably not enough modeling of 'best practices' then we have the overly mythical priming as well, and I think all of this is what leads to many of the unwanted outcomes that people face.  

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Just now, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@Earl Grey
I will argue that working with the secret smile would give some protection against damage to the psyche. I believe that there's a lot of priming in 'this world' when it comes to expectations, warnings and probably not enough modeling of 'best practices' then we have the overly mythical priming as well, and I think all of this is what leads to many of the unwanted outcomes that people face.  


Doesn’t actually work that way according to Taoist cultivation framework, which is decidedly NOT mythical.

 

The secret smile if it’s anything like inner smile might make you feel good, but sensations deceive and what is actually worthwhile or good may not feel like anything at all.

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19 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@Earl Grey I'm only doing spinal breathing, MCO, a bit of KAP practices (5 point breathing, secret smile, their version of tree shaking) and the closing and main grounding technique from FiveElementTao's Celestial Neigong (he doesn't like the idea of mixing either.)

Although, I've wanted to meet Jenny Lamb for years, I don't think I would pay her 10,000 for a clearing if I had such issues! 

 

Jenny is no longer teaching. Was forced out for charging 10k for an exorcism which usually didn't work. Her clients would need to go back for another round at additional expense.

 

I would advise extreme caution with indulging in a buffet of practices. Why? The human energy field is complex and not always easy to work with. The planetary EM field along with local tunnel realities and personal trauma, as well as emotional and physical suppression are difficult to sort out. An individuals energy field is always attempting to find stasis. However, stasis is not peaches and cream, but the system will hold onto trauma of any kind. E.g, unretractable pain which the nervous system will not release.

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@ralis Was she really forced into retirement?
To be honest, the whole possession thing just sounds superstitious to me. If anything, I would rather take a Jungian approach to integrating all the parts of my psyche and handling the devils within and without.  

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10 hours ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@Earl Grey With neuroplasticity and the habitual entrainment of specific mental/emotional states, it might be a quality safe guard from negative outcomes for the psyche.  

 

Those are more for what we are consciously aware of--the fact is, working with the internal arts will bring out the shadows and the subconsciousness--which is what we are often not prepared for most of the time. So it doesn't help as much as you think it does. 

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Proper diaphragmatic breathing combined with proper awareness will do more in the way of creating functional networks in your brain, modulating reactions and emotions, than any other technique that there is a body of research on. Second up is slow, rhythmical movements. 

 

And these still are correllated with reactions, because working with issues is a nasty business. 

 

As for the rest of the available methods, as of now it is mainly anecdotal, meaning you really can not separate the useful from the not so useful in any other way then trusting your teacher. 

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KAP, AYP and other systems like it are basically a collection of ‚Äėeffective‚Äô¬†exercises. However they don‚Äôt follow a path - just combine exercises that feel effective.

 

But there’s a major problem with that approach. The genuine internal arts follow a chain of cause and effect... Each process you go through sets up the cause for the correct effect to take place down the line.


Sometimes - actually the majority of the time - the cause and effect chain is completely hidden. And if, without understanding the whole path, you pick a few of your favourite causes to the exclusion of others you’re setting yourself up for disaster.

 

A miniature example of this from mundane life...

 

When I was preparing a bean based stew, my grandma scolded me when she saw me put a bunch of salt, pepper and herbs in the pot.
 

To me that makes sense - a well seasoned dish is so much more delicious than a bland, flavourless stew.

 

What I didn’t realise (as I had no understanding of the full process) is that salt at an early stage in the cooking process makes beans tough and stops them cooking properly and developing the correct texture and flavour.

 

My limited understanding combined with my preference for flavour meant that I made a fundamental error in the process - and I had no idea that I had. And even when explained, it simply didn’t make sense to me.

 

Whereas my grandma, having gone through the process herself - hundreds of times. And having learned from her mum who had gone through the process - who learned from her relatives that had gone through the process (etc) - she preserved the full understanding of the chain of cause and effect of the process.

 

Systems like KAP, AYP or other self-created systems of practice are like me in that analogy. I like salt, I like flavour - so I’ll add it. It makes sense.

 

My grandma and the line of teachers who taught her the recipe for the stew represent an authentic lineage that preserves the full understanding of the process. They know that salt makes things tasty, but they also know that it can ruin the process unless used correctly.

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AYP is based on Transcendental "Mediation", a technique that is both nonsensical and potentially extremely harmful, as evidenced by what they call "overload". Couple TM with unbalanced pranayama like AYP's so-called "Spinal Breathing Pranayama" and its a recipe for potential disaster.

 

In contrast with TM and AYP, genuine meditation can be practiced for a dozen or more hours continuously for days or even weeks with extremely beneficial effects. To learn such practices you'll probably need to find an expert in them (and no genuine expert in such practices will charge anyone a cent for passing-on such techniques). For the classical historic example, the Buddha didn't hawk Liberation in the marketplace like some tawdry merchant.

 

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19 minutes ago, gatito said:

no genuine expert in such practices will charge anyone a cent for passing-on such techniques

 

I agree with most of your post, but the above is a weird addition...

 

Teachers must eat, pay rent and clothe themselves like anyone else. And whether that comes to them from institutionalised systems like being a monk and collecting alms or directly through a teacher-student relationship - there is always some exchange. And if there isn't - then, in my opinion, its a parasitic relationship.

 

Edit: Oh I just realised that the payment thing is a continuation from another thread about paying for training. In my opinion, it's an honour to be able to help support a teacher in some way. Some teachers need financial help, others need other types of assistance.

Edited by freeform
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Just now, freeform said:

 

I agree with most of your post, but the above is a weird addition...

 

Teachers must eat, pay rent and clothe themselves like anyone else. And whether that comes to them from institutionalised systems like being a monk and collecting alms or directly through a teacher-student relationship - there is always some exchange. And if there isn't - then, in my opinion, its a parasitic relationship.

 

 

This could be a very interesting discussion (and a very useful discussion) because this issue comes up time after time and it will certainly help me to clarify my position on the matter (even it's of no usewhatsover  to any others :-)).

 

I'll ponder upon it and return with my thoughts in a couple of days by starting a separate thread.

 

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1 minute ago, gatito said:

This could be a very interesting discussion (and a very useful discussion) because this issue comes up time after time and it will certainly help me to clarify my position on the matter (even it's of no usewhatsover  to any others :-)).

 

I'll ponder upon it and return with my thoughts in a couple of days by starting a separate thread.

 

Yeah - it's an age-old question. And I agree, deserves its own thread.

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@freeform  I'm sorry but I put zero faith or superiority in 'path' or lineage. Why? Because we are dealing with subjective phenomena, most whose practices has been hidden, and most people attribute amazing qualities to "path" and "lineage" without direct experience of that practices peak experience.

I don't care if an Asian who lived amongst monks for 50 years final decides after 1000 years of secrecy the techniques can now be shared to the west and the rest of the world.  I don't care if a westerner creates "a system of stuff" that works.

I only care if it works...

I never started any of this with the find a master mindset, and I won't begin. I'm too old for that. I think that mindset is for ppl who grew up on martial arts films and anime. The magical east with their unbroken and hidden lineages. 

The human body is the human body, and we should be hacking this stuff as much as we can to figure out what gets us the results that we want vs assuming that these lineages have the right recipe. 

I will argue that the west has done more for taking meditation off of magical mountains,  brining it into the universities, into therapy models like mindfulness CBT with data to back up its effectiveness than any lineage holder  has done. 



 

Edited by Mikey_Power_Up

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@gatito I think they experience overload because they don't spin enough time with grounding techniques and reversing the flow. It is mostly along one circuit path. 

I have a hunch with their "deep meditation" that most end up 'placing' the mantra in the head and overcharge an already upper center collection of practices, then take that on top of  the self-pacing which is okay, but ppl would be better served by balancing the 'energy' they build. 

With that said, I actually like AYP (politics and deficiencies aside) it is(was) one of the only open source systems  that got results for me. 

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8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Those are more for what we are consciously aware of--the fact is, working with the internal arts will bring out the shadows and the subconsciousness--which is what we are often not prepared for most of the time. So it doesn't help as much as you think it does. 


That isn't completely true, we create neural networks for things we are not consciously aware of if we habitually experience their gravity in our life. I prefer a less fatalistic Jungian approach or Edwinger  approach to dealing with shadow and subconscious  and integrating them. The life that you have lived also plays a large role with the shadow and subconscious, shadow  actually doesn't represent the sea of negativity that ppl assume. Just the unconscious and unlived life, the material of our filters that we are not aware of unfolding to the surface. It is when such things constellate without awareness that we are in a  rear naked choke hold by it. 

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2 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I'm sorry but I put zero faith or superiority in 'path' or lineage.

 

No need to be sorry! I think polite disagreement is a great dynamic for a fruitful discussion. (And thanks for being polite! :) )

 

4 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I don't care if an Asian who lived amongst monks for 50 years final decides after 1000 years of secrecy the techniques can now be shared to the west and the rest of the world.

 

4 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

The magical east with their unbroken and hidden lineages. 

 

Yes - I agree that that's a very misleading mindset and understanding of what lineage is. In fact, a lot of the 'mystification' of the internal arts are hugely damaging.

 

Making things mysterious, in my opinion, just means it's not understood, and just romanticised for effect.

 

Actually the system of lineages (when you take away the clouds of mystery) are very practical, pragmatic organisations that work incredibly well to preserve extremely intricate and very difficult to understand knowledge and ability.

 

9 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

we can to figure out what gets us the results that we want

 

That's how lineages start. Someone becomes enlightened or achieves some attainment - so others come to them and ask how they did it... so they help these people go through the process of transformation... once they do, and they achieve the same attainment, they teach others... That's a lineage.

 

Self-directed practice, on the other hand, is just people catching the crumbs of knowledge dropped from the lineages and combine them together. Because they don't understand the full picture, they pick what they feel 'works' and works simply means has an effect.

 

The problem is that the effects have to be combined in a certain order and in certain combinations... there are many such ingredients to achieve the ultimate aim. The self-directed practitioner just does what feels right - which is fun and entertaining and will have some extraordinary effects - but not transformation - not liberation or ascension.

 

15 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

we are dealing with subjective phenomena

 

Here I completely disagree.

 

And this comes down to the wisdom of lineage.

 

Actually - every step of the process has very tangible, objective results that could even be ascertained by people who haven't even heard of the internal arts.

 

When you open your Du channels there is a specific physiological result (several actually) that confirms or denies that you really have opened it.

 

All along the path (a genuine path) there are these quite specific objective markers. Genuine lineages place great importance on these because there is a huge potential for delusion in these arts - and these markers easily remove any subjectivity or doubt.

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46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I'm sorry but I put zero faith or superiority in 'path' or lineage

 

Lineages are meant to protect the student. Sticking within the system allows them to address potential problems that arise which they have experience dealing with inside their practice and history. This is one reason they don't recommend mixing and matching. 

 

46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

Why? Because we are dealing with subjective phenomena, most whose practices has been hidden, and most people attribute amazing qualities to "path" and "lineage" without direct experience of that practices peak experience.

 

This is only partially true as people focus on sensations rather than the endgame, and oftentimes, they have very different ideas and expectations. Sensations are deceptive, but the human mind likes to make conclusions fast.

 

46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I don't care if an Asian who lived amongst monks for 50 years final decides after 1000 years of secrecy the techniques can now be shared to the west and the rest of the world.  I don't care if a westerner creates "a system of stuff" that works.

I only care if it works...

 

What works depends on many things--are you familiar with Bruce Tegner? He died of complications related to tensing himself up all the time when inhaling and forcing it to his head. This was later revealed to be what led to his early death. It worked--until it was proven that it didn't.

 

46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I never started any of this with the find a master mindset, and I won't begin. I'm too old for that. I think that mindset is for ppl who grew up on martial arts films and anime. The magical east with their unbroken and hidden lineages.

 

You are free to lead your own path, but it's pretty obvious you don't understand Eastern cultures. Hi, I'm Earl Grey: an Asian American who can separate martial arts films and anime from the practice of lineage and masters contrary to your bold allegation. And your "too old for that" reads more as "I'm too good for that" honestly.

 

46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

The human body is the human body, and we should be hacking this stuff as much as we can to figure out what gets us the results that we want vs assuming that these lineages have the right recipe. 

 

The human body is complex and every body is unique, so it's not something that can be hacked. Lineages recognize this and the variations and deviations. Hacking from mixing and matching causes damage that to someone like you, would be difficult to find noticeable damage that someone with the appropriate qualifications would see.

 

46 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I will argue that the west has done more for taking meditation off of magical mountains,  brining it into the universities, into therapy models like mindfulness CBT with data to back up its effectiveness than any lineage holder  has done. 

 

However, you're not taking into account the meditations of the west were in caves, deserts, and monasteries, within Christianity and pre-Christianity in Judaism, then after Christianity with Islam, and still more even in pagan traditions. 

 

27 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

That isn't completely true, we create neural networks for things we are not consciously aware of if we habitually experience their gravity in our life. I prefer a less fatalistic Jungian approach or Edwinger  approach to dealing with shadow and subconscious  and integrating them. The life that you have lived also plays a large role with the shadow and subconscious, shadow  actually doesn't represent the sea of negativity that ppl assume. Just the unconscious and unlived life, the material of our filters that we are not aware of unfolding to the surface. It is when such things constellate without awareness that we are in a  rear naked choke hold by it. 

 

I am taking a Jungian approach. :) 

 

What I am referring to is simply put totally different than what you're writing here, which comes off to me as more conjecture unfortunately. 

Edited by Earl Grey
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26 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@gatito I think they experience overload because they don't spin enough time with grounding techniques and reversing the flow. It is mostly along one circuit path. 

I have a hunch with their "deep meditation" that most end up 'placing' the mantra in the head and overcharge an already upper center collection of practices, then take that on top of  the self-pacing which is okay, but ppl would be better served by balancing the 'energy' they build. 

With that said, I actually like AYP (politics and deficiencies aside) it is(was) one of the only open source systems  that got results for me. 

 

I've no idea why they get "overload" but, as I inferred, TM isn't a "legitimate" practice.

 

However, I'm not going to hammer this issue further than that with you, especially as there's now lot's of info. out there that's easily accessible for anyone to do their due diligence about both AYP and TM.

 

Furthermore, if you "got results" that worked for you, W(ho)TF am I (or anyone else) to nay-say your "results". :-)

 

Edited by gatito

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