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38 minutes ago, ilumairen said:


Similar, imo, to the idea it is the duty of every member of an intentionally emotionally manipulated society to vote.

 

33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yup.  Or as Mark Twain put it, "if voting decided anything, they wouldn't let us do it."  

 

https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/constant-the-liberty-of-ancients-compared-with-that-of-moderns-1819

 

Quote

Freedom among the Ancients[edit]

For Constant, freedom in the sense of the Ancients "consisted of the active and constant participation in the collective power" and consisted in "exercising, collectively, but directly, several parts of the whole sovereignty" and, except in Athens, they thought that this vision of liberty was compatible with "the complete subjection of the individual to the authority of the whole".[1] Thus, at that time and outside the particular case of Athens, power was entitled to everything and therefore to the mores of society. Constant takes the example of Terpander, who in the time of Sparta was condemned by the Ephors for having added a string to his lyre without warning them; or the principle of ostracism in Athens showing that the state regulates everything.[clarification needed]

Freedom is therefore contradictory in ancient Greece, because sovereignty in public affairs coexists with slavery in the private sphere. "As a citizen, he decides on peace and war; as particular, he is circumscribed, observed, repressed in all his movements".[1] Constant explains that the ancients had no notion of individual rights, except in Athens, which, Constant tells us, "is [of all the ancient states] the one who has resembled the modern ones" and that it granted "to its citizens infinitely more individual freedom than Rome and Sparta". This type of freedom is explained by the small size of the republics of the time. The rivalry between the cities causes the states to buy their security at the price of war.

Freedom among the Moderns[edit]

Freedom in modern societies is incompatible with that of the ancients. This is the opportunity to do what we want, it is a protection of the private sphere. "The aim of the moderns is the enjoyment of security in private pleasures; and they call liberty the guarantees accorded by institutions to these pleasures". Size and trade explain it. The sharing of power diminishes with increasing size of states. The war has given way to trade. They are only two means to achieve the same goal, namely to possess what you want. Trade is "an attempt to obtain by mutual agreement what one no longer hopes to conquer by violence."[1] War, just like trade, makes it possible to achieve a goal, and the evolution of society has changed the means without touching the end. "Trade inspires men with a keen love of individual independence." Thus Athens, which was the most commercial democracy, was also the one which bestowed the most individual liberty. However, we must moderate this idea with the practice of ostracism, symbol of the power of the state over the individual.

The errors of the French Revolution were be the result of an attempt to apply ancient liberty in a modern world. Constant criticizes Father Gabriel Bonnot de Mably, who, he says, regrets that the law only reaches actions and not thought. He explains the admiration of the author for Sparta. He also criticizes the beliefs of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Conclusions[edit]

He draws from his reflection a number of political principles:

  • Individual independence is the first of modern needs.
  • One must never sacrifice individual liberty to obtain political freedom.
  • The institutions of the ancient republics, hindering individual liberty, are not admissible in modern societies.
  • Individuals have rights that society must respect.
  • We must not want to go back. "Since we are in modern times, I want freedom that is proper in modern times."
  • Political freedom is the guarantee; political freedom is therefore indispensable.

The political system must be that of representation. Every man votes for his interests to be defended. He does not speak of the general will.

Since ancient liberty is not the same as modern liberty, it follows that they are respectively threatened with different dangers. The danger of ancient liberty rests on an alienation of the individual, in which the state crushes the individual. But the danger that threatens modern freedom is, as Tocqueville suggests, that the individual is too absorbed in the pursuit of his individual interests and renounces his rights to share political power (thus endangering his individual freedom, since is the political power that ensures its safeguarding and protection).

He concludes his speech by explaining the need to learn to combine these two types of freedom.

 

Source: Wikipedia. (Bold emphasis mine). 

Edited by Earl Grey
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Yes, yes, yes, it is so very important we choose our temporary overlords (from the small pool of preselected overlords), until such time comes to choose the next overlord.. 

 

Edit to add: just color me cynical where politics are concerned.

Edited by ilumairen
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Six former U.S. Presidents have warned the public about an invisible “shadow government” secretly running the United States behind the scenes, who have an “incredibly evil intent”.

Over the last 214 years, past Presidents and political leaders have tried to warn the public that the U.S. government is under the control of an “invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”

 

They “virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties… It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”

As a result, “we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.”

 

The sources for the above quotes (and more) are listed below. All of the quotes in this article have been verified as authentic and have associated links to the source materials. Also included below are statements made by David Rockefeller, Sr, former director of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), and Federal Reserve Chairman’s Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke that appear to confirm some of the warnings.

Warnings About the Invisible Government Running the U.S.

The warnings listed below, which appear in chronological order, began with our first president – George Washington. The last president to speak out was JFK, who was assassinated. Read what they and other political leaders have said about the invisible government.

George Washington wrote that the Illuminati want to separate the People from their Government

“It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of seperation). That Individuals of them may… actually had a seperation [sic] of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned.” – George Washington, 1st President of the United States (1789–1797), from a letter that Washington wrote on October 24, 1798, which can be found in the Library of Congress. For an analysis of Washington’s warning, see the article “Library of Congress: George Washington Warns of Illuminati”

“I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.” —Thomas Jefferson, dent of the United States (1801–1809) and principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence (1776), in a letter written to John Taylor on May 28, 1816

“A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various powerful interests, combined in one mass, and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in banks.” – John C. Calhoun, Vice President (1825-1832) and U.S. Senator, from a speech given on May 27, 1836

Note that it appears that Washington’s and Jefferson’s concerns regarding bankers and separation of the people from the government was realized by 1836. This fact was confirmed in a letter written by FDR in 1933 (see below) in which he wrote that “a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.” Jackson was the seventh president of the United States (1829-1937). Calhoun served as Jackson’s vice-president from 1829-1832.

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”— Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, An Autobiography, 1913 (Appendix B)

“A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men… [W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.” – Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States, The New Freedom, 1913

“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” – Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States, The New Freedom, 1913

“The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government, which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation… The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both parties, … and control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.” – New York City Mayor John F. Hylan, New York Times, March 26, 1922

“Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt…Mr. Chairman, when the Federal Reserve act was passed, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here… and that this country was to supply financial power to an international superstate — a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure.” – Congressman Louis T. McFadden, from a speech delivered to the House of Representatives on June 10, 1932

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.” — Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 32nd President of the United States (1933–1945), in a letter to Colonel Edward M House dated November 21, 1933, as quoted in F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, 1928-1945.

“Today the path to total dictatorship in the U.S. can be laid by strictly legal means… We have a well-organized political-action group in this country, determined to destroy our Constitution and establish a one-party state… It operates secretly, silently, continuously to transform our Government… This ruthless power-seeking elite the disease of our century… This group…is answerable neither to the President, the Congress, nor the courts. It is practically irremovable.” – Senator William Jenner, 1954 speech

“The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent.” —J. Edgar Hoover, The Elks Magazine, 1956

“The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings… Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe… no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of “clear and present danger,” then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent… For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence–on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day.It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed.” — John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, from a speech delivered to the American Newspaper Publishers Association on April 27, 1961 and known as the “Secret Society” speech.

“The Rockefellers and their allies have, for at least fifty years, been carefully following a plan to use their economic power to gain political control of first America, and then the rest of the world. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes, I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.” Congressman Larry P. McDonald, November 1975, from the introduction to a book titled The Rockefeller File.

“There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.” – Daniel K. Inouye, US Senator from Hawaii, testimony at the Iran Contra Hearings, 1986.

The Federal Reserve

“A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves…” – John C. Calhoun

“… owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.” – Theodore Roosevelt

“… one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Bank.“ – Louis T. McFadden

In an interview with Jim Lehrer that was aired on PBS’ News Hour on September 18, 2007 that you can watch on YouTube, formal Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said, essentially, that the Federal Reserve was above the law and that no agency of government can overrule their actions:

Jim Lehrer: “What is the proper relationship, what should be the proper relationship between a chairman of the Fed and a president of the United States?”

Alan Greenspan: “Well, first of all, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency, and that means, basically, that there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take. So long as that is in place and there is no evidence that the administration or the Congress or anybody else is requesting that we do things other than what we think is the appropriate thing, then what the relationships are don’t frankly matter.”

The fact that the Fed is above the law was demonstrated by current Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, during his appearance before Congress on March 4, 2009 (as shown in this video). Senator Bernie Sanders asked Bernanke about $2.2 trillion in American tax dollars that was lent out by Federal Reserve. Bernanke refused to provide an answer:

Senator Sanders: “Will you tell the American people to whom you lent $2.2 trillion of their dollars? … Can you tell us who they are?”

Bernanke: “No”

David Rockefeller and the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)

“We have a well-organized political-action group in this country, determined to destroy our Constitution and establish a one-party state…” – William Jenner

“The Rockefellers and their allies have, for at least fifty years, been carefully following a plan to use their economic power to gain political control of first America, and then the rest of the world.” – Larry P. McDonald

In 1921 the stockholders of the Federal Reserve financed an organization called the “Council on Foreign Relations” (CFR). A full discussion on the CFR is beyond the scope of this article. Suffice it to say that the CFR likely plays a prominent role in the invisible government that we have been warned about. The CFR is alleged to be the arm of the Ruling Elite in the United States. Most influential politicians, academics and media personalities are members. The CFR uses its influence to push their New World Order agenda on the American people.

David Rockefeller, Sr is the current patriarch of the Rockefeller family. He is the only surviving grandchild of oil tycoon John D. Rockefeller, founder of Standard Oil. Rockefeller began a lifelong association with the CFR when he joined as a director in 1949. In Rockefeller’s 2002 autobiography “Memoirs” he wrote:

“For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as internationalists and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure — one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”

James Warburg, son of CFR [Council on Foreign Relations] founder Paul Warburg, delivered blunt testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17, 1950:

“We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest.”

Cognitive Dissonance

“THE AMERICAN MIND SIMPLY HAS NOT COME TO A REALIZATION OF THE EVIL WHICH HAS BEEN INTRODUCED INTO OUR MIDST. IT REJECTS EVEN THE ASSUMPTION THAT HUMAN CREATURES COULD ESPOUSE A PHILOSOPHY WHICH MUST ULTIMATELY DESTROY ALL THAT IS GOOD AND DECENT.” —J. EDGAR HOOVER

Because of a deep rooted beliefs that the U.S. government is “for the people” and the protector of the free world, many will reject the notion of an evil shadow government. When our beliefs are challenged or when two beliefs are inconsistent, cognitive dissonance is created. It’s human nature to try to hold our beliefs in harmony with our world view and avoid disharmony (or dissonance).

For those of you who having difficulty believing the information presented in this article, I fully understand. For the first 57 years of my life, I would not have believed in the possibility that a shadow government could exist. Three years ago my world view changed. While on vacation in Mount Shasta, I came across a book titled “Global Conspiracy” that seemed strangely out of place in a metaphysical book store. I had never heard of the author before – some guy named David Icke. I scanned through the book and frankly didn’t believe 99% of what I read. But, I saw one thing that caught my attention in that I knew that I could easily verify Icke’s assertion. I did my own research and turned out what Icke had stated was true. That led me down a rabbit hole and many, many hundreds of hours of independent research.

So, keep an open mind, do your own research, and use discernment. Beware that there is a ton of disinformation on the internet, much of which is intentionally placed to confuse the public. At a CFR meeting on geoengineering (see the article “Millions Spent to Confuse Public About Geoengineering“), M. Granger Morgan stated (it’s captured on video for you to see and hear for yourself):

“FIRST OF ALL, OF COURSE, THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY GETTING SPENT TO MAKE SURE THAT A VERY SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE PUBLIC STAYS TOTALLY CONFUSED ABOUT THIS. AND, I MEAN, IT’S BEEN REALLY QUITE PERNICIOUS. BUT THERE’S BEEN LITERALLY TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT ON EVERY LITTLE THING THAT COMES ALONG THAT MIGHT, YOU KNOW, RELATE TO SOME UNCERTAINTY.”

What Can We Do?

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” – Margaret MeadIn

Edited by moment
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I'm not intending to raise the ante, but if Rachel Maddow was right last night, a nurse who works for ICE came out as a whistle blower and said that some of the detained female Latinas were sent to a gynecologist (while in custody) and he performed unwanted hysterectomies on them.  He is called the 'uterus collector'.   If there's any truth to this, the comparison to Hitler isn't far-fetched at all.  Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.  No doubt we'll be hearing more about this.  The nurse came across very credibly.

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Let it be also said that, while Trump's anti-immigration policy is indeed evil and worthy of all the condemnation it gets, it is a development of policies already put in place by previous administrations. Writers for liberal magazine The Nation already warned about this in 2016: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-deportation-machine-obama-built-for-president-trump/

 

Yes, it was Obama who put the kids in cages first. Republicans often exploit this fact as a talking point, but it is nonetheless true. This is what is enabled when people take robotic political stances, reducing everything to two possible positions.

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5 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Let it be also said that, while Trump's anti-immigration policy is indeed evil and worthy of all the condemnation it gets, it is a development of policies already put in place by previous administrations. Writers for liberal magazine The Nation already warned about this in 2016: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-deportation-machine-obama-built-for-president-trump/

 

Yes, it was Obama who put the kids in cages first. Republicans often exploit this fact as a talking point, but it is nonetheless true. This is what is enabled when people take robotic political stances, reducing everything to two possible positions.

 

The problem with the cages is that Obama's and Trump's policies on immigration are entirely different. The cages are only meant as a 72 hour hold and no longer. Trump has used the cages to separate children and infants from their parents and most of those children have disappeared with no record of where they are. Kidnapping is a federal offense!

 

 

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15 hours ago, manitou said:

I'm not intending to raise the ante, but if Rachel Maddow was right last night, a nurse who works for ICE came out as a whistle blower and said that some of the detained female Latinas were sent to a gynecologist (while in custody) and he performed unwanted hysterectomies on them.  He is called the 'uterus collector'.   If there's any truth to this, the comparison to Hitler isn't far-fetched at all.  Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.  No doubt we'll be hearing more about this.  The nurse came across very credibly.

 

trump using many of hilter's methods does not make him hitler per-se because of differences in personalities but it does make him hitler like/ dictator like per those methods.  (which is verifiable per public records, events and first hand eye witness, thus undeniable )  

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 the astral war has been going on for who knows how long...taking many forms, twists and turns.

(and again that can't happen or manifest in the physical without it happening in the astral first...both in the individual and in the cosmos)

 

" For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

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1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 the astral war has been going on for who knows how long...taking many forms, twists and turns.

(and again that can't happen or manifest in the physical without it happening in the astral first...both in the individual and in the cosmos)

 

" For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

 

Could you explain what this astral war is?

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4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Could you explain what this astral war is?

 

for someone as well studied as you are you must (or woiuld seemingly) have inklings?

Edited by old3bob

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2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

for someone as well studied as you are you must (or woiuld seemingly) have inklings?

 

I didn't want to reply on the basis of inklings, I wanted you to describe this war, since you mentioned it.

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12 hours ago, ralis said:

Kidnapping is a federal offense!

 

Sadly, I believe that only applies to US citizens and who do you go to when the feds are the ones doing the kidnapping?

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2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I didn't want to reply on the basis of inklings, I wanted you to describe this war, since you mentioned it.

 

well lets not say just minor inklings if that is what you mean, lets say and in part correlation with what has been handed down from the historic Buddha along the lines of His battles with mara and the help and witness he got from the Earth/goddess...those are seemingly more than just minor inklings to studied Buddhists are they not?

 

  

Edited by old3bob
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1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

I don't agree. Anyone within the borders of the U.S.A. is afforded the same legal rights as U.S. citizens. 

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201

 

I’m guessing there is some legal horseshit that permits our government to do what they do, whether it is to murder hundreds of thousands of non-combatants here and there, beat and kill peaceful protestors, kill unarmed black men, women, and children, or to incarcerate, torture, and sexually abuse children of desperate refugees (created by our own foreign policy). They are even able to hide the abuse from congresspeople, the public, and the press. We truly are the terrorists by any definition but we have power and money and so we get away with it. Are we great enough again yet?

 

My outrage, anger, frustration, sadness, and pain related to our governments actions is a significant part of my regular practice. 

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I think it's more that legality is completely irrelevant when there is no power capable of holding the US accountable for its actions. Perhaps the most perennial but impotent criticism of US interventions and wars is that they violate international law. Is someone going to sanction the USA? Arrest its politicians? Of course not. If there were some serious international attempt to punish the US for Trump's crimes even the liberals would be fuming at the insolence.

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Please identify a president and congress that was not guilty of war crimes and other atrocities in our lifetime. 

 

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2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I’m guessing there is some legal horseshit that permits our government to do what they do, whether it is to murder hundreds of thousands of non-combatants here and there, beat and kill peaceful protestors, kill unarmed black men, women, and children, or to incarcerate, torture, and sexually abuse children of desperate refugees (created by our own foreign policy). They are even able to hide the abuse from congresspeople, the public, and the press. We truly are the terrorists by any definition but we have power and money and so we get away with it. Are we great enough again yet?

 

My outrage, anger, frustration, sadness, and pain related to our governments actions is a significant part of my regular practice. 

 

Steve,

 

If it is a consolation, which is probably isn't, there is no country or government in history that has not committed atrocities and aggressions equal to or surpassing those of the USA.  Even small countries like Belgium had particularly nasty colonial policies, nice little Sweden had a big European empire based on invading everyone around them in the 30 years War and so on.  I won't bother to detail Britains behaviour and of course we must count in the 'socialist' countries like Stalin's USSR, Cambodia, Mao's China and so on.  The Ottoman Empire was savage, for instance the Armenian genocide.  All these governments kept people at home in ignorance and masked what they were doing with propaganda and jingoism.

 

The human world destroys the Dao (I'm quoting @Taomeow here I think) - life is suffering (that's the Buddha) - even the saintly Ashoka only took up the dharma after he had crushed his enemies and not before.  I can only suggest be 'in the world but not of the world' (is that Jesus? - I think so).

 

Anyway don't feel too bad about America, it is a great country which is why so many want to go to live there, you've done a lot of good things too.  Just as I wrote that a rainbow appeared in the sky outside my window - seriously!  amazing - its a sign :)

 

 

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On 9/17/2020 at 10:17 AM, zerostao said:

Please identify a president and congress that was not guilty of war crimes and other atrocities in our lifetime. 

 

 

we would need a very good historian for that...and to make comparisons also since I don't think we should  equate all as being at the same level of crimes, domestic and or foreign for that matter.

 

Btw. Carter had some complicated times with Russia and the Iran crisis  to name just two but I don't remember him being a war monger and he did fight for civil rights and other types of rights for Americans. 

Edited by old3bob
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Quote from Apech's quote,  "The human world destroys the Dao (I'm quoting @Taomeow here I think) "

 

There is no power in the multiverse that can destroy "Tao", otherwise the multiverse and all Beings would be SOL and never came into being.

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3 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Quote from Apech's quote,  "The human world destroys the Dao (I'm quoting @Taomeow here I think) "

 

There is no power in the multiverse that can destroy "Tao", otherwise the multiverse and all Beings would be SOL and never came into being.

 

I will ask @Taomeow to clarify.

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27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

The human world destroys the Dao (I'm quoting @Taomeow here I think) 

 

Almost, but it's "the dao in the human world has been destroyed," which is me quoting the Yuandao and the Wenzi and what not.  

The difference is, I don't think the version of the taoist classics attributes destructiveness to the human world.  It places the human world on the receiving end of the destruction of the dao rather than among its perpetrators.   

 

It is a well-know phenomenon to psychologists:  victims of abuse coping with the trauma by identifying with its perpetrators.  I believe that's what collectively happened to humanity.    

 

 

Edited by Taomeow
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36 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

we would need a very good historian for that...and to make comparisons also since I don't think we should  equate all as being at the same level of crimes, domestic and or foreign for that matter.

 

Btw. Carter had some complicated times with Russia and the Iran crisis  two name just two but I don't remember him being a war monger and he did fight for civil rights and other types of rights for Americans. 


Carter supported Suharto’s East Timor genocide. He also joined China and Thailand in backing the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam overthrew them. His man Brzezinski masterminded the US support for the Afghan mujahideen with the wonderful results we are still living with today. Carter does seem to have developed some conscience since leaving office which is more than can be said for his successors.

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Its the blurred lines between cia, pentagon, military industrial complex. It was going on before 9/11/2001, but after 911 unprecedented powers given in the so called patriot act, basically resulted in unchecked powers, trap and trace, everything Snowden revealed, to think there is a shadow government and has been since Truman allowed the cia to form or dates back way before then. I am not a conspuracy theorist-- understand, that when the fbi recommended not to prosecute hrc, in their report they made several mentions of, in their own words, "shadow government" and "7th floor group" "mileu deep state" as acting entities of unelected people running the government behind the scenes, my understanding is that the entire fbi were either hallucinating or made the whole thing up.

I know for a fact ( how in the hell can any of us know) that America is a shing democracy and there could never be repugnant secret societies acting as a behind the scenes secret government.

 

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