Recommended Posts

Whatever Trump is or isn't; my only question, is or isn't Trump winning this November election.

Bloomberg just donated 100 million for Biden to use exclusively in Florida. Polls have been showing a Biden lead of about 3%. Does Bloomberg see something the polls are missing? Very likely so. 

Biden is not gaining traction with Latino voters in Florida and the undecideds are now leaning towards Trump. 

Swing states will decide the election. Minnesota could flip red this time. The rust belt played a major role in determining the 2016 election. Ohio will remain Trump. However, Michigan and Pennsylvania, i think return blue. The polls cannot be trusted, totally. That was clearly evident in 2016. 

North Carolina is a dead heat. I think the rust belt decides it this time too. If Trump wins one of the three, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, i think if he does that, he likely eeks out a close Electoral College win. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmnn "Stand for something or fall for anything"

 

I think stand for something too strongly and you lose perspective, then one is open to fall for anything.

Once you're a zealot, the rationalizing mind is open to believe anything, no matter how outlandish, your side spits out.

 

The Qanon people didn't start off believing in wide spread satanic pedophile cults.  They are/were normal people, Republicans living in  Republican areas.   They were sold that there a vast conspiracy against Trump, insiders/outsiders waging a war against him.  Somewhat correct because Trump is Trump and to know him is to be scared that he's in office. 

 

Anyhow,  millions of Republican voted for him see daily personal insults, impeachment.. a virtual 'war' against the President of the United States.  From there, the 'rationalizing' mind takes over, tribalism begins and its a short step to Qanon.  The prez isn't so bad, the other side is conspiring.  You see this on steroids during war time.  Extreme villainization of the other side.

 

To my mind Trump is a stupid greedy self-centered man. His words and deeds impugn him.  There is no need to stretch or exaggerate.  There was an episode of South Park that nailed the concept that the Right's over reaction to Trump created the Left's defense of him.  

 

To change a Republicans you can't use 'He's a fascist monster'..that hardens there position- you use, he's a bad Republican, not fiscally responsible, pro-Russian,  anti-Ally, his policies are bad the country and he's got a childs mentality.  

 

To change a moderate, just quote Trump verbatim.. fully.  Large sections of his own speeches.  Many are incoherent and petulant.   Maybe they sound good to true believers but when fact checked fall to pieces.  You don't have to accuse him of anything, his own words on an almost daily basis are pretty damning. 

 

 

For the board, I hope there's enough empathy among those who were disgusted with Talk Trump thread, and its often Alt-Right writings, that they can have some little sympathy for those not totally 110% Right wing and not create the same atmosphere that was happening then.  Perhaps keep the extreme mockery down.  Take it easy on the memes and photos.. remember how it felt to read that 1,000 pages of crap and how it got worse and worse and maybe not create a Left wing version of it.  Be better..?

 

Cause we don't have to go low.  Keeping calm and stating the facts is enough.   Plus it doesn't create the defensive backlash that forms and strengthens the other side's extreme.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, zerostao said:

Whatever Trump is or isn't; my only question, is or isn't Trump winning this November election.

..

North Carolina is a dead heat. I think the rust belt decides it this time too. If Trump wins one of the three, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, i think if he does that, he likely eeks out a close Electoral College win. 

 

A scary analysis, and a close Electoral win by either side results in chaos, at least short term.  Maybe a strong popular vote could help.. or not.

 

<To one of the above strategies.. Do we really want to take a page from the Republican strategy book?  ie what they did in 2012 & 2016, calling Obama- Hitler and the anti-Christ?   As a Democrat did it change your mind, make you think, yeah, ofcourse why didn't I see that.  I don't think it worked on moderates either.  And turned off main stream and intellectuals on the Right.

 

Using it on Trump, calling him a Hitler, may be satisfying but very counter productive and you'd have historians saying, not even close.  We don't need to exaggerate to win, we don't need to split the party up, to win.>

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, thelerner said:

A scary analysis, and a close Electoral win by either side results in chaos, at least short term.  Maybe a strong popular vote could help.. or not.

 

<To one of the above strategies.. Do we really want to take a page from the Republican strategy book?  ie what they did in 2012 & 2016, calling Obama- Hitler and the anti-Christ?   As a Democrat did it change your mind, make you think, yeah, ofcourse why didn't I see that.  I don't think it worked on moderates either.  And turned off main stream and intellectuals on the Right.

 

Using it on Trump, calling him a Hitler, may be satisfying but very counter productive and you'd have historians saying, not even close.  We don't need to exaggerate to win, we don't need to split the party up, to win.>


My reason for characterizing Trump as an authoritarian fascist is based on factual historical documentation. I recommended a few scholars in a previous post which includes Hannah Arendt who writes about banalizing evil in her important work “The Origins of Totalitarianism.” Also “Mein Kampf is important reading as to how “the big lie” is constructed. 
 

I have never once likened Trump to Hitler, but it is obvious that Trump has read Hitler, Goebbels and other writings that have informed his ideology. 
 

Should we not be outraged seeing children and adults locked in cages like animals? Infants and children taken from their parents and have disappeared without a trace! All because of Trump’s anti immigration policy! 

Edited by ralis
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Cause we don't have to go low.  

Sadly enough we can be going along, minding our own business and get hijacked into the gutter.

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

  Keeping calm and stating the facts is enough.   

Once again sadly, sometimes that is not enough!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thelerner said:

A scary analysis, and a close Electoral win by either side results in chaos, at least short term.  Maybe a strong popular vote could help.. or not.

 

I dont think there is any chance that Trump wins the overall popular vote. He failed to win that last time. But his electoral advantage was 306-232.  Hrc had 2.9 million more popular votes. That alone is possible cause for unrest, post election.

If Biden wins both Michigan & Pennsylvania, but Trumps holds onto the other states he won in 2016. Trump would have exactly the 270 required for the win. 

Nebraska and Maine have split results. Imagine if one of the split electoral college votes could cause a 269-269  tie. This isnt as far fetched as you might think. And on January 20, 2021 we would have President Pelosi.

Wisconsin and Minnesota are going to have a lot of attention. Of course, Biden could win either North Carolina or Florida and seal it. Georgia, idk. Red states tend to remain red, blue states tend to remain blue. Georgia had 76% turnout and trump won by 5%. I expect turnout to be heavy from coast to coast. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man oh man you are all over or on top of this election!

I am not sure if that's healthy or not :ph34r:?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ralis said:


My reason for characterizing Trump as an authoritarian fascist is based on factual historical documentation. I recommended a few scholars in a previous post which includes Hannah Arendt who writes about banalizing evil in her important work “The Origins of Totalitarianism.” Also “Mein Kampf is important reading as to how “the big lie” is constructed. 
 

I have never once likened Trump to Hitler, but it is obvious that Trump has read Hitler, Goebbels and other writings that have informed his ideology. 
 

Should we not be outraged seeing children and adults locked in cages like animals? Infants and children taken from their parents and have disappeared without a trace! All because of Trump’s anti immigration policy! 

 

I never considered Trump had read anything much before but it's possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I never considered Trump had read anything much before but it's possible.


He quoted Il Duce early in his campaign...

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I suppose the most unsettling thing about this situation is that in the past the country's institutions, political, legal and administrative have tended to act as a counterbalance to a weak or a bad president.  The US system - a bit like the French - is to elect a mini-dictator for a fixed term.  Or at least that is how it seems to me - I wait to be corrected.  For instance Macron is a kind of mini-Napoleon for 4/5 years or whatever the term is there.  The US president has unimaginable powers and influence - and it used to be the tradition that because this power brought an equivalent responsibility people would, even if they opposed the successful candidate, respect the office if not the man.  Clearly this has fallen apart with Trump because he walked rough shod over all the usual conventions in both gaining the republican nomination and in the last election.  He fought quite dirty and he, to a certain extent tore up the playbook.  He put himself outside the club which would have granted him some protection from personal attack.  Or again that is how it seemed to me.

 

But what alarms me most is that the four years since 2016 were not spent by the Democrats developing a platform of policies to address the needs of those that deserted them (like the unemployed in the rust-belt), finding a young and competent candidate and organising to defeat Trump in a strategic way.  Instead they went for the seemingly endless and eventually futile Russiagate investigation and impeaching him over a somewhat dodgy phone call - which to be honest pales in significance if put against all the lies and trickery perpetrated on on the American people by Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon over Vietnam and by both Bushes over the two Iraq Wars.  Even then Nixon who bombed Cambodia and Laos illegally was allowed to resign over, not the mass slaughter but a failed break-in - there was fury there but quite muted considering all his crimes.

 

I feel that what is at stake now is not just the Presidency but the whole superstructure of American political life.  For instance, if there is no clear winner then walls could come tumbling down, leaving more rubble than anyone can handle.

 

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ralis said:

Should we not be outraged seeing children and adults locked in cages like animals? Infants and children taken from their parents and have disappeared without a trace! All because of Trump’s anti immigration policy! 

 

Causes me such deep pain...

The US is collectively guilty of crimes against humanity. All responsible should be tried at the Hague if international law meant anything. Clearly it doesn’t, it’s all politics.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I suppose the most unsettling thing about this situation is that in the past the country's institutions, political, legal and administrative have tended to act as a counterbalance to a weak or a bad president.  The US system - a bit like the French - is to elect a mini-dictator for a fixed term.  Or at least that is how it seems to me - I wait to be corrected.  For instance Macron is a kind of mini-Napoleon for 4/5 years or whatever the term is there.  The US president has unimaginable powers and influence - and it used to be the tradition that because this power brought an equivalent responsibility people would, even if they opposed the successful candidate, respect the office if not the man.  Clearly this has fallen apart with Trump because he walked rough shod over all the usual conventions in both gaining the republican nomination and in the last election.  He fought quite dirty and he, to a certain extent tore up the playbook.  He put himself outside the club which would have granted him some protection from personal attack.  Or again that is how it seemed to me.

 

But what alarms me most is that the four years since 2016 were not spent by the Democrats developing a platform of policies to address the needs of those that deserted them (like the unemployed in the rust-belt), finding a young and competent candidate and organising to defeat Trump in a strategic way.  Instead they went for the seemingly endless and eventually futile Russiagate investigation and impeaching him over a somewhat dodgy phone call - which to be honest pales in significance if put against all the lies and trickery perpetrated on on the American people by Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon over Vietnam and by both Bushes over the two Iraq Wars.  Even then Nixon who bombed Cambodia and Laos illegally was allowed to resign over, not the mass slaughter but a failed break-in - there was fury there but quite muted considering all his crimes.

 

I feel that what is at stake now is not just the Presidency but the whole superstructure of American political life.  For instance, if there is no clear winner then walls could come tumbling down, leaving more rubble than anyone can handle.

 

 

I suspect you see us more clearly, and in perspective, than we see ourselves.

Thank you for that 

🙏🏽

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, thelerner said:

hmnn "Stand for something or fall for anything"

 

I think stand for something too strongly and you lose perspective, then one is open to fall for anything.

Once you're a zealot, the rationalizing mind is open to believe anything, no matter how outlandish, your side spits out.

 

The Qanon people didn't start off believing in wide spread satanic pedophile cults.  They are/were normal people, Republicans living in  Republican areas.   They were sold that there a vast conspiracy against Trump, insiders/outsiders waging a war against him.  Somewhat correct because Trump is Trump and to know him is to be scared that he's in office. 

 

Anyhow,  millions of Republican voted for him see daily personal insults, impeachment.. a virtual 'war' against the President of the United States.  From there, the 'rationalizing' mind takes over, tribalism begins and its a short step to Qanon.  The prez isn't so bad, the other side is conspiring.  You see this on steroids during war time.  Extreme villainization of the other side.

 

To my mind Trump is a stupid greedy self-centered man. His words and deeds impugn him.  There is no need to stretch or exaggerate.  There was an episode of South Park that nailed the concept that the Right's over reaction to Trump created the Left's defense of him.  

 

To change a Republicans you can't use 'He's a fascist monster'..that hardens there position- you use, he's a bad Republican, not fiscally responsible, pro-Russian,  anti-Ally, his policies are bad the country and he's got a childs mentality.  

 

To change a moderate, just quote Trump verbatim.. fully.  Large sections of his own speeches.  Many are incoherent and petulant.   Maybe they sound good to true believers but when fact checked fall to pieces.  You don't have to accuse him of anything, his own words on an almost daily basis are pretty damning. 

 

 

For the board, I hope there's enough empathy among those who were disgusted with Talk Trump thread, and its often Alt-Right writings, that they can have some little sympathy for those not totally 110% Right wing and not create the same atmosphere that was happening then.  Perhaps keep the extreme mockery down.  Take it easy on the memes and photos.. remember how it felt to read that 1,000 pages of crap and how it got worse and worse and maybe not create a Left wing version of it.  Be better..?

 

Cause we don't have to go low.  Keeping calm and stating the facts is enough.   Plus it doesn't create the defensive backlash that forms and strengthens the other side's extreme.


Stand for something doesn’t mean take an extremist route. Strawman argument and reduction to absurdity. Missed the point entirely.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I suppose the most unsettling thing about this situation is that in the past the country's institutions, political, legal and administrative have tended to act as a counterbalance to a weak or a bad president.  The US system - a bit like the French - is to elect a mini-dictator for a fixed term.  Or at least that is how it seems to me - I wait to be corrected.  For instance Macron is a kind of mini-Napoleon for 4/5 years or whatever the term is there.  The US president has unimaginable powers and influence - and it used to be the tradition that because this power brought an equivalent responsibility people would, even if they opposed the successful candidate, respect the office if not the man.  Clearly this has fallen apart with Trump because he walked rough shod over all the usual conventions in both gaining the republican nomination and in the last election.  He fought quite dirty and he, to a certain extent tore up the playbook.  He put himself outside the club which would have granted him some protection from personal attack.  Or again that is how it seemed to me.

 

But what alarms me most is that the four years since 2016 were not spent by the Democrats developing a platform of policies to address the needs of those that deserted them (like the unemployed in the rust-belt), finding a young and competent candidate and organising to defeat Trump in a strategic way.  Instead they went for the seemingly endless and eventually futile Russiagate investigation and impeaching him over a somewhat dodgy phone call - which to be honest pales in significance if put against all the lies and trickery perpetrated on on the American people by Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon over Vietnam and by both Bushes over the two Iraq Wars.  Even then Nixon who bombed Cambodia and Laos illegally was allowed to resign over, not the mass slaughter but a failed break-in - there was fury there but quite muted considering all his crimes.

 

I feel that what is at stake now is not just the Presidency but the whole superstructure of American political life.  For instance, if there is no clear winner then walls could come tumbling down, leaving more rubble than anyone can handle.

 

 

 

I think there are some important differences between the ex-presidents you've mentioned and trump in that with them and in many or most cases there were a lot more people involved per more instances of votes taken in congress or more high level meetings for most of those events.  (although I'm not a historian so that could be fact checked...)  while trump is often daily and  single-handedly (with maybe a few totally corrupt and lying cronies involved) pulling deadly or dangerous shit out of his ass (causing related events) and throwing it in the faces of the American people!  (and some of those people in a cult like and bizarre manner eat it up?)  Also none of the ex's attacked the press and various rational sources like trump has and got away with it like he has,  along with him having a corrupt propaganda machine like fox news which they did not have any where close to.

Edited by old3bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

I think there are some important differences between the ex-presidents you've mentioned and trump in that with them and in many or most cases there were a lot more people involved per more instances of votes taken in congress or more high level meetings for most of those events.  (although I'm not a historian so that could be fact checked...)  while trump is often daily and  single-handedly (with maybe a few totally corrupt and lying cronies involved) pulling deadly or dangerous shit out of his ass (causing related events) and throwing it in the faces of the American people!  (and very cult like and bizarrely some people eat it up?)  Also none of the ex's attacked the press and various rational sources like trump has and got away with it like he has,  along with him having a corrupt propaganda machine like fox news while they did not.

And FB and twitter propaganda machines, these are unprecedented times. Beyond even Kundera or Kafka. more like Gogol really. Think of it like having a chance to live in such a world!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The notion, popularized by former Major General Smedley Butler, that modern ‘war’ is generally not engaged in to defend a nation and create greater security for its citizens, but rather serves the economic interests of a small elite group:

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses".–Major General Smedley Butler( The most highly decorated Marine in U.S. history)----who refused to be used by that same elite to take over the U.S. government

 

"Humanity is currently in a struggle against a small but extremely powerful group of people at the top of the political and economic pyramid. What needs to be understood, however, is that this group can only maintain its power if the majority of humanity continues to bow to its bribery, threats and coercion. This group considers humanity as mere cattle, to be pushed and swayed in whatever direction this group wants us to go. And who can blame them for their confidence?"-----  Richard Enos

Edited by moment
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Chimes of Freedom--- BobDylan

 

[Verse 1]
Far between sundown’s finish and midnight’s broken toll
We ducked inside the doorways, thunder went crashing
As majestic bells of bolts struck shadows in the sounds
Seemin' to be the chimes of freedom flashing
Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight
Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight
And for each and every underdog soldier in the night
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

[Verse 2]
Through the city’s melted furnace, unexpectedly we watched
With faces hidden as the walls were tightening
As the echo of the wedding bells before the blowin’ rain
Dissolved into the bells of the lightning
Tolling for the rebel, tolling for the rake
Tolling for the luckless, they abandoned and forsaked
Tolling for the outcast, burning constantly at stake
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

[Verse 3]
Through the mad mystic hammering of the wild ripping hail
The sky cracked it's poems in naked wonder
That the clinging of the church bells blew far into the breeze
Leavin' only bells of lightning and it's thunder
Striking for the gentle, striking for the kind
Striking for the guardians and protectors of the mind
And the poet and the painter far behind his rightful time
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

[Verse 4]
And the wild cathedral evening the rain unraveled tales
For disrobed faceless forms of no position
Tolling for the tongues with no place to bring their thoughts
All down in taken-for-granted situations
Tolling for the deaf and blind, tolling for the mute
For the mistreated, mateless mother, the mistitled prostitute
For the misdemeanor outlaw, chained and cheated by pursuit
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

[Verse 5]
Even though a cloud’s white curtain in a far-off corner flared
And the hypnotic splattered mist was slowly lifting
Electric light still struck like arrows, fired but for the ones
Condemned to drift or else be kept from driftin'
Tolling for the searching ones, on their speechless, seeking trail
For the lonesome-hearted lovers with too personal a tale
And for each unharmful, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing

[Verse 6]
Starry-eyed and laughing as I recall when we were caught
Trapped by no track of hours for they hanged suspended
As we listened one last time and we watched with one last look
Spellbound and swallowed ’til the tolling ended
Tolling for the aching whose wounds cannot be nursed
For the countless confused, accused, misused, strung-out ones and worse
And for every hung-up person in the whole wide universe
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashin'

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

someone on TV recently said, "we are exhausted and need a break"  (in the context of from trump and trumpism)

agreed 200%

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not for me to change you. The question is, how can I be of service to you without diminishing your degrees of freedom?

R. Buckminster Fuller

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Great nations are simply the operating fronts of behind-the-scenes, vastly ambitious individuals who had become so effectively powerful because of their ability to remain invisible while operating behind the national scenery.”

~ Buckminster Fuller
[Richard Buckminster Fuller] (1895-1983) American visionary, designer, architect, poet, author, and inventor
 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, moment said:

“Great nations are simply the operating fronts of behind-the-scenes, vastly ambitious individuals who had become so effectively powerful because of their ability to remain invisible while operating behind the national scenery.”

~ Buckminster Fuller
[Richard Buckminster Fuller] (1895-1983) American visionary, designer, architect, poet, author, and inventor
 

 

That's exactly it.  I could quote six American presidents, from all periods in history, saying essentially exactly the same thing.  That's why I despair so much about threads like this one or the alt-right one that went before.  No one ever stands in the way of the real evil.  Everybody is too distracted hating each other and each other's mascot -in-chief.  Which is exactly how the real evil wants it to remain.  It also provided everyone with this convenient catch-all label, "conspiracy theory," to safeguard itself from any and all whistleblowers, and everybody, left and right, took to it like fish to water.  Brilliant.        

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

That's exactly it.  I could quote six American presidents, from all periods in history, saying essentially exactly the same thing.  That's why I despair so much about threads like this one or the alt-right one that went before.  No one ever stands in the way of the real evil.  Everybody is too distracted hating each other and each other's mascot -in-chief.  Which is exactly how the real evil wants it to remain.  It also provided everyone with this convenient catch-all label, "conspiracy theory," to safeguard itself from any and all whistleblowers, and everybody, left and right, took to it like fish to water.  Brilliant.        


Similar, imo, to the idea it is the duty of every member of an intentionally emotionally manipulated society to vote.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:


Similar, imo, to the idea it is the duty of every member of an intentionally emotionally manipulated society to vote.

 

Yup.  Or as Mark Twain put it, "if voting decided anything, they wouldn't let us do it."  

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites