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1 minute ago, moment said:

 

I get it just fine. I did not intend to upset you.  This is no longer a productive conversation.  Take care and be well.

 

Thank you.  Likewise.

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4 hours ago, moment said:

 

Sure, he's not trump.

 

4 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Amazing, so being a separate organism from the present occupant of the White House magically determines that one has a ready-made solution to all the world's problems.

 

No, but it´s gotta help.

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53 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

That's a non sequitur, but I can easily answer.  No, never for any one of the lot or the lot of them.  I never voted in my life.  

 

 agreed, rather non-sequitur, kind of like the rather stereotyped bot comment...

Edited by old3bob
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4 hours ago, Apech said:

Sure but have you asked yourself why Biden precisely?  

 

Precisely because we have no other option. He is a hack and, as you say, barely coherent. The only presidential candidate I’ve ever been enthusiastic about in my lifetime has been Bernie Sanders, someone interested in meaningful political and social reform.  The democrap party is not interested in meaningful reform, only in giving that appearance enough to garner votes of progressives while not scaring the average, ignorant and unsophisticated US voter, and all the corporate sugar-daddies.

 

I do prefer their party over their gop siblings for a few specific reasons, namely:

- LGBTQ rights

- environmental issues, both global and national

- healthcare reform

- pandemic issues

- immigration 

- Trumpism - there has never been a more divisive force in US politics in my lifetime. It is quite socially destabilizing

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5 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Careful, some people still think that was a brilliant campaign, defeated only by Putin and James Comey.

Most lackadaisical, substance-less campaign I recall.

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2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

  I never voted in my life.  

Well that's a non starter, having actually never voted, means "no skin in the game".

One whom claims support for the winner post partem after the race was won.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I consider myself an independent that leans progressive.  Socially left, but as a business owner, nothings free, budgets should balance.  Both sides are guilty of bread and circus aimed at there constituents. 

I can live with a moderate Republican, but Trumpism is divisive and well a whole host of problems. 

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30 minutes ago, natural said:

Well that's a non starter, having actually never voted, means "no skin in the game".

One whom claims support for the winner post partem after the race was won.

 

Thank you Captain Oblivious.  

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50 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Precisely because we have no other option. He is a hack and, as you say, barely coherent. The only presidential candidate I’ve ever been enthusiastic about in my lifetime has been Bernie Sanders, someone interested in meaningful political and social reform.  The democrap party is not interested in meaningful reform, only in giving that appearance enough to garner votes of progressives while not scaring the average, ignorant and unsophisticated US voter, and all the corporate sugar-daddies.

 

I do prefer their party over their gop siblings for a few specific reasons, namely:

- LGBTQ rights

- environmental issues, both global and national

- healthcare reform

- pandemic issues

- immigration 

- Trumpism - there has never been a more divisive force in US politics in my lifetime. It is quite socially destabilizing

 

I'd add openly enciting violence and racism that has resulted in terrible deaths along with lies and actions that have brought about the reckless man-slaughter  of say 100,00 us citizens and counting, (in an attempt for trumps twisted PR) thus far more deadly and dangerous than many will admit! Btw. Biden is far more than "barely coherent" if you bothered to listen to his convention speech?

Edited by old3bob
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Wanted to make this point earlier but had to run-.

Last year we had a Talk Trump thread that turned very Right wing, and alt Right.  I hated it, it was nasty, derogatory.. insulting..baiting..   and I'm middle of the road.  Members further to the left found it enraging, racist.. some left over it.  Then the cleansing came, some were banned others left because of it.  BAD SCENE.

 

What I don't want to happen (& it already has to some extent) is for this thread(& other political ones) to be the same level of nasty, derogatoryness as the Talk Trump thread, only Left wing.  Its inconsiderate to our members who are Republican or lean right. 

 

We don't need to be angry or exaggerate.  To disparage Trump you merely need to quote him verbatim.  Maybe add a fact check.  I think a large amount of Trump support is the fact the left goes overboard in there insults.  ie he may be 'problematic' but he's our guy.  If we cooled it, and just quoted him, I think he'd loose some support.  Or not.

 

Don't let these arguments boil over into accusations against other members or groups.  You know what I've done- Typed my worst, looked at it, appreciated it, lots of words not in the spell checker- I'll tell you, then back-spaced deleted and re-wrote without the accusations and heat.  Same meaning, but polite.  And that allows for discussion, instead of cementing positions.

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1 hour ago, thelerner said:

I consider myself an independent that leans progressive.  Socially left, but as a business owner, nothings free, budgets should balance.  Both sides are guilty of bread and circus aimed at there constituents. 

I can live with a moderate Republican, but Trumpism is divisive and well a whole host of problems. 

 

Government is not a business and the age old argument brought on by the Tea Party that a government budget should balance like a business or a household, misses the point. Why? With a legally mandated balanced budget, there is no room for emergencies or other considerations. With that scenario the gridlock would be a nightmare. 

 

"Both sides are guilty....." is a false equivalence meaning that both sides are engaged in the same bait and switch equally. Not so!

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2 hours ago, natural said:

Well that's a non starter, having actually never voted, means "no skin in the game".

One whom claims support for the winner post partem after the race was won.

 

 

I'd say the whole planet has skin in the game, voters or not. It's unavoidable.

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33 minutes ago, ralis said:

 With that scenario the gridlock would be a nightmare. 

 

"Both sides are guilty....." is a false equivalence meaning that both sides are engaged in the same bait and switch equally. Not so!

It already is and has been a nightmare. Both sides are complicit and culpable. Both sides are gaslighting. 

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36 minutes ago, ralis said:

"Both sides are guilty....." is a false equivalence meaning that both sides are engaged in the same bait and switch equally. Not so!

 

In my opinion both sides are deeply corrupt and guilty of many offenses - moral, ethical, fiscal, fiduciary, ... you name it. My personal bias is that the gop sins are more offensive but that doesn’t mean I turn a blind eye towards the asses... Thelerner said nothing about equivalence, simply that both parties are guilty of superficial appeasement of their supporters without providing real and lasting solutions - an absolutely accurate statement, IMO.

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8 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In my opinion both sides are deeply corrupt and guilty of many offenses - moral, ethical, fiscal, fiduciary, ... you name it. My personal bias is that the gop sins are more offensive but that doesn’t mean I turn a blind eye towards the asses... Thelerner said nothing about equivalence, simply that both parties are guilty of superficial appeasement of their supporters without providing real and lasting solutions - an absolutely accurate statement, IMO.


Sweeping generalizations never precisely define any argument. In this case both of you fail to define specifics, but vague generalities. Further, the Republican Party has turned to authoritarianism, racism, fascism, as well as theocracy as a means of acquiring more power. The facts are out there!

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I’m honestly not interested enough to begin listing specifics. I have no dispute with your characterization of the gop. I’m nostalgic for the good ole days when Dubya and his enablers were the worst I’d ever seen...

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2 minutes ago, steve said:

I’m honestly not interested enough to begin listing specifics. I have no dispute with your characterization of the gop. I’m nostalgic for the good ole days when Dubya and his enablers were the worst I’d ever seen...


I just listed one. 

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If true, it’s particularly horrific. Unfortunately, the article includes no real evidence There are plenty of factual offenses so why resort to  an unsubstantiated allegation? For me, one loses credibility when taking that approach. I think that is part of the problem in political discussion today. Lots of emotion and accusations, many exaggerated, and not enough validated.

 

I get quite emotional about the current situation as well. I look at that reactivity and bring it into my practice. All of that negative emotion clouds judgment and leads to escalation, not solutions.

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5 minutes ago, steve said:

If true, it’s particularly horrific. Unfortunately, the article includes no real evidence There are plenty of factual offenses so why resort to  an unsubstantiated allegation? For me, one loses credibility when taking that approach. I think that is part of the problem in political discussion today. Lots of emotion and accusations, many exaggerated, and not enough validated.

 

I get quite emotional about the current situation as well. I look at that reactivity and bring it into my practice. All of that negative emotion clouds judgment and leads to escalation, not solutions.

 

I said allegedly. Will see what comes out of this whistle blower allegation.

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ralis, I'm against Trump but your arguments do make me give him a second look.  You being against anyone who isn't against him as much as you, is good for Trump.  I see you as a Trump asset.  Just like an over zealous crazed alt-righter is a Biden asset.  For the good of the Democratic party you should consider switching sides or toning it down a bit.  

 

Voting this year is of supreme importance.  Nothing can be taken for granted, unless there is a very clear winner, popular and especially Electoral college, we will be in for chaos.  That goes triple for the 7 or 8 battleground states.  People need to vote.  A decisive win is needed.  Hopefully they'll vote for the saner man. 

 

I'm hoping the independents swing hard for Biden.

 

 

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“Stand for something or else fall for everything.”

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1 hour ago, thelerner said:

ralis, I'm against Trump but your arguments do make me give him a second look.  You being against anyone who isn't against him as much as you, is good for Trump.  I see you as a Trump asset.  Just like an over zealous crazed alt-righter is a Biden asset.  For the good of the Democratic party you should consider switching sides or toning it down a bit.  

 

Voting this year is of supreme importance.  Nothing can be taken for granted, unless there is a very clear winner, popular and especially Electoral college, we will be in for chaos.  That goes triple for the 7 or 8 battleground states.  People need to vote.  A decisive win is needed.  Hopefully they'll vote for the saner man. 

 

I'm hoping the independents swing hard for Biden.

 

 


I don’t get where you obtained your assessment of me. Calling me a Trump asset is an ad hominem personal attack which is far from reality. 
 

First of all there are some of us trying to save what is left of Democracy. Two of my uncles, several friends as well as myself gave up years of our lives in service to this country. 
 

 

Edited by ralis
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18 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

“Stand for something or else fall for everything.”


Indeed!

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around 4 years ago during the  republican presidential primaries trump hi-jacked and corrupted  most of the republican party and it values with his pathogenic cult persona (resulting in a party that has lost most of sometimes workable,  conservative and problem solving "reaching across the aisle" merits)  and continues to be further debased and poisoned into unrecognizable form!  (regardless of flag waving and wearing red maga hats, something not unlike hitler's methods of having Germans wave swastika flags and cheer him on at his rallies)  So we are not in "normal" or often dirty 2 party American politics, (with independents being mostly a swing factor one way or another) and as dirty as such politics were or  have been over the decades such is nothing in comparison to the all consuming destructive dictatorship that trump and his fanatic enablers are building 24/7!  So dealing with him in the old normal political ways will only slow him down a  bit but not stop his death spiral...which at this point could soon bring everyone and the country to dark ruin!  (not unlike what hitler did with Germany and is something that should be obvious to most Americans yet is not to a great many!)     So helping people wake up from trump trance via the hammering of undeniable facts into his webs of enthrallment and alternate reality is one way to help reveal him for what he is and get him out of office, any other suggestions?

Edited by old3bob

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