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2 hours ago, ralis said:


 

I agree that Generals and others should not back down. Otherwise, Trump wins. 

Serious question: can the army stage a coup if the President orders them to violate the constitution?

If Trump keeps this up, then your generals will inevitably be faced with this question.

 

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On 4/8/2020 at 4:00 PM, SirPalomides said:

 

Anyone having the body-mind of someone who holds Trump accountable for his evil actions would act in the same way,. It might see things in a new light leading to the cessation of self-refuting nonsense.

 

Indeed, no one has any choice. There is no doer of action, as someone who has free will, as one that could do any different at any point in time.

 

The point is anger arising at actions that one doesn't like is perfectly fine (biological anger), suffering is optional. Suffering as blame that goes on in time as thoughts in the head of the human and uncomfortable sensations in the body can fall away as blame falls away.

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6 hours ago, manitou said:

General Mattis came out today and said something like, 'Come on guys, we can do this' - inferring that there is a viable way of bypassing Trump.  That would be great if that's the case.  I think Mattis is truly shaken up.  Evidence of a backbone might have shown up a bit earlier, if you ask me.  That's the problem when these generals and upper administrators get all in a huff and quit and walk away when Trump insults them.  There's no one left who knows what they're doing.  Righteous indignation feels good, but it never serves any lasting good purpose.  We are worse off because these guys took a stand and walked off.  I think it would take a lot more courage to stay and try to be loyal to The People, even if there's a moron hurling insults.

 

several retired GOP senators come to mind who spoke up and then disappeared...

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another thing the robber barons of old and new and many other powers that be  have been raping and pillaging America for a very, very long time in any and every way possible  for their greedy god of profit, often regardless of the  cost to the rest of us in health, environment, standards of living for many, union busting, deadly and costly wars all over the world with some starting because of an "ugly" American mind set, and even committing forms of slavery and genocide in the past against some people, (black and native peoples especially) etc.. all the while they have their pleasant resorts like Mar A Largo or some other luxury mansions to retreat to.  And most of them  are not crying foul about their multi-billion dollar rip -offs,  tax dodging schemes and law manipulation culture that amounts to grand theft like they are when people rob Target in a mob frenzy.  No, instead their form of frenzy consists of carefully legalized crime and a status quo that enables their  greed machine which knows no limits.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, thelerner said:

You realize this isn't the first (or last?) rioting based on racial injustice in the US?  You assume it'll go on til every neighborhood, town and city becomes prejudice free?  And all 18,000 US cops act perfectly. 

 

maybe.. but I doubt it, I'm pretty sure it'll end before then.  I'm assuming in a week or two.  

How would you know if or when the 'establishment' stops its racist agenda? 

 


Rioting in itself doesn’t lead anywhere- it is an expression of rage and frustration at a dysfunctional social-economic system, in this case one that, among other things, fundamentally devalues black life (this goes much deeper than just prejudice or individual attitudes- it is very possible for a non-racist but jumpy/ trigger-happy cop- even a black cop- to murder an unarmed black person just because they know that there is a likelihood they will not be held fully accountable). There is no point in moralizing about riots, nor in glorifying them as a social movement. There IS a social movement which is growing but still quite weak. These events are opportunities for organizers to reach out and continue building connections. I think it’s clear that formal political processes (Eg elections) are not reliable means of social change, so autonomous organizing, direct action, and, eventually, dual power are necessary. What we are still missing are organizations with the vision and depth of contact of, for instance, the old Black Panther Party. I think something like that is slowly emerging though hopefully better able to resist division, infiltration, and repression than the BPP. I am confident there are young Huey Newtons and Fred Hamptons out there who are learning lessons from the 60’s and 70’s.

 

Trump is a symptom. The US, as a political entity and as a world power, is in slow but permanent decline and it’s only going to get crazier and nastier on the way down. Don’t look to the political establishment or people like Jim Mattis to make anything better- look to family, friends, and neighbors and support people who are organizing in the ground level for a different, better society.

Edited by SirPalomides
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7 hours ago, Zork said:

Serious question: can the army stage a coup if the President orders them to violate the constitution?

If Trump keeps this up, then your generals will inevitably be faced with this question.

 


This popped into my head when I heard about Mattis’ denunciation. I think it is useful for Americans to occasionally imagine that the USA is a foreign country and observe it that way- some trajectories may come out clearer. Mattis is retired but has huge respect and support in the military. It’s possible that his statement is a veiled warning. If Trump orders the military to do something and they refuse that’s the makings of a coup. 
 

Unfortunately the thing about coups is that, once you do one (ostensibly to defend the constitution and invoking the 25th amendment) then it becomes much easier to do it again. When Trump is gone the dysfunction  of the political system will remain in place, presidential paralysis (“inability” per the 25th) remains likely, and the temptation, for all actors, to resort to strongman tactics will be overwhelming.

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1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:


This popped into my head when I heard about Mattis’ denunciation. I think it is useful for Americans to occasionally imagine that the USA is a foreign country and observe it that way- some trajectories may come out clearer. Mattis is retired but has huge respect and support in the military. It’s possible that his statement is a veiled warning. If Trump orders the military to do something and they refuse that’s the makings of a coup. 
 

Unfortunately the thing about coups is that, once you do one (ostensibly to defend the constitution and invoking the 25th amendment) then it becomes much easier to do it again. When Trump is gone the dysfunction  of the political system will remain in place, presidential paralysis (“inability” per the 25th) remains likely, and the temptation, for all actors, to resort to strongman tactics will be overwhelming.

 

trump is light-years away from being part of normal dirty or partisan politics and for somebody to come along and repeat his inhuman words and actions is very unlikely since most human beings have a conscience which he has repeatedly proven he does not, Nixon was small time in his power hungry flaws compared to megalomaniac trump!

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

trump is light-years away from being part of normal dirty or partisan politics

 

 

He is the product of politics as usual. His presidential campaign was boosted by mainstream media (with Democratic encouragement- see the Clinton campaign’s “pied piper” strategy), the Republicans united around him, he was duly elected, and the Democrats’ “resistance” has done little to oppose him and much to further his agenda. So Trump is very much in line with mainstream US politics as they are now.

 

Quote

 

 

and for somebody to come along and repeat his inhuman words and actions is very unlikely since most human beings have a conscience which he has repeatedly proven he does not, Nixon was small time in his power hungry flaws compared to megalomaniac trump!

 

Trump has done many evil things but nothing yet of the magnitude of the 2003 Iraq invasion which was supported by the majority of US politicians of both parties including the present Democratic presidential candidate. Meanwhile George W Bush gets hugs from Michelle Obama and hangs out with Ellen. None of these people have consciences. Trump’s problem is that he says the quiet parts out loud. 

Edited by SirPalomides

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3 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Unfortunately the thing about coups is that, once you do one (ostensibly to defend the constitution and invoking the 25th amendment) then it becomes much easier to do it again. When Trump is gone the dysfunction  of the political system will remain in place, presidential paralysis (“inability” per the 25th) remains likely, and the temptation, for all actors, to resort to strongman tactics will be overwhelming.

 

Thats not exactly a bad thing. Any future trump wannabes (Stosh was rooting for Ivanka to be president?) will have something to think about. 

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Any future anyone will have something to think about. Once the generals become a key political player there’s no putting that genie back in the bottle. 

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14 hours ago, moment said:

 

Mattis has always had a backbone. Mattis realized that unless he dishonored himself, there was no way to be effective in that administration. General Mattis was extremely conservative, but he realized that Trump was something else and uncontrollable within the WH.  Mattis is held in very high regard by the military and his connections are deep.  It should be interesting on how this works out.

I highly recommend Mattis's book Call Sign Chaos.  It follows him from childhood to serving under Trump.  Shows him to be a military man with much integrity.   Highlights his great love for history and reading.  Good insights on leadership and some of the makings of modern history. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Zork said:

Serious question: can the army stage a coup if the President orders them to violate the constitution?

If Trump keeps this up, then your generals will inevitably be faced with this question.

 

Not a chance, militarily.  Pundits have been wondering if congress will invoke the 25th amendment- removing Trump for incompetence, again, not a chance.  The Republican politicians are scared of him and Republican masses bewitched.  His support has been eroding a bit of late, but it's still extraordinarily faithful.  

 

The 'coup' is going to have to happen on election day.  Increasingly people and polls are predicting he'll lose big and his party to lose the senate. But its a long way to November and he's a wily opponent, who usually reads the crowd well.  It helps he's willing to do about anything to win.  Interestingly there's a greater chance of Trump pulling a coup then the military or politicians. 

Edited by thelerner
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, bax44 said:

https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/06/01/video-white-people-kneel-ask-forgiveness-from-the-black-community-in-third-ward/

 

This is beyond pathetic, but, thats not my main concern. Does "social distancing" suddenly not apply since a black dude was killed? I guess the virus is sort of falling by the wayside. How convenient.

 

Convenient until the next spike!  This virus may help to do, what half of America, did not have the integrity to do.  But, at a terrible cost!

Edited by moment

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hard to imagine trump leaving the whitehouse even if he is voted out unless he is carried out along with being shackled, bound and gagged! (and maybe tranquilized)

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1 hour ago, old3bob said:

hard to imagine trump leaving the whitehouse even if he is voted out unless he is carried out along with being shackled, bound and gagged! (and maybe tranquilized)

Though if convinced enough (which maybe impossible) he might feign illness or conspiracy to leave the White House kicked out.  Near the end of the last election he laid a foundation of blame for his future loss, which didn't happen.  Surprising everyone, including himself.   It was as Roger Stone said, drawing into an inside straight, 'very lucky'. 

 

Trump would have a very hard time as a lame duck president when people around him, everyone he's belittled and insulted, tell him what they think without filter.  His faithful lapdogs will remember his childish name calling,  how he insulted there wives, fathers, friends, military.. and tell him what they really think. 

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24 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Though if convinced enough (which maybe impossible) he might feign illness or conspiracy to leave the White House kicked out.  Near the end of the last election he laid a foundation of blame for his future loss, which didn't happen.  Surprising everyone, including himself.   It was as Roger Stone said, drawing into an inside straight, 'very lucky'. 

 

Trump would have a very hard time as a lame duck president when people around him, everyone he's belittled and insulted, tell him what they think without filter.  His faithful lapdogs will remember his childish name calling,  how he insulted there wives, fathers, friends, military.. and tell him what they really think. 

 

He is afraid of going to prison while trying to run out the statute of limitations. 

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16 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

This popped into my head when I heard about Mattis’ denunciation. I think it is useful for Americans to occasionally imagine that the USA is a foreign country and observe it that way- some trajectories may come out clearer. Mattis is retired but has huge respect and support in the military. It’s possible that his statement is a veiled warning. If Trump orders the military to do something and they refuse that’s the makings of a coup. 

This isn't a coup but disobedience/mutiny.

 

16 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Unfortunately the thing about coups is that, once you do one (ostensibly to defend the constitution and invoking the 25th amendment) then it becomes much easier to do it again. When Trump is gone the dysfunction  of the political system will remain in place, presidential paralysis (“inability” per the 25th) remains likely, and the temptation, for all actors, to resort to strongman tactics will be overwhelming.

Well if we take Rome as an example then, Sulla did the unthinkable and marched his legions over the Rubicon. Every other powerful general after him asked himself the same question  "If Sulla did it, why can't I?"

Quote

Sulla is generally seen as having set the precedent for Caesar's march on Rome and dictatorship. Cicero comments that Pompey once said "If Sulla could, why can't I?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

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10 hours ago, thelerner said:

Though if convinced enough (which maybe impossible) he might feign illness or conspiracy to leave the White House kicked out.  Near the end of the last election he laid a foundation of blame for his future loss, which didn't happen.  Surprising everyone, including himself.   It was as Roger Stone said, drawing into an inside straight, 'very lucky'. 

 

Trump would have a very hard time as a lame duck president when people around him, everyone he's belittled and insulted, tell him what they think without filter.  His faithful lapdogs will remember his childish name calling,  how he insulted there wives, fathers, friends, military.. and tell him what they really think. 

 

hopefully I was exaggerating about shackles, etc. being needed although with the ongoing dangerous madness and megalomaniac of trump who knows?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2020 at 9:11 AM, SirPalomides said:

 

He is the product of politics as usual. His presidential campaign was boosted by mainstream media (with Democratic encouragement- see the Clinton campaign’s “pied piper” strategy), the Republicans united around him, he was duly elected, and the Democrats’ “resistance” has done little to oppose him and much to further his agenda. So Trump is very much in line with mainstream US politics as they are now.

 

 

Trump has done many evil things but nothing yet of the magnitude of the 2003 Iraq invasion which was supported by the majority of US politicians of both parties including the present Democratic presidential candidate. Meanwhile George W Bush gets hugs from Michelle Obama and hangs out with Ellen. None of these people have consciences. Trump’s problem is that he says the quiet parts out loud. 

 

trump is in an  category of evil all by himself (except for other infamous dictators)...granted the horrific mid-east wars are a very dark and deadly  Bush legacy but Bush was far more a pawn of the influencing forces of that time while trump is a product of his own greed, malice, narcissism and megalomania from very early on in his life and which he has cultivated his entire life - which he then thoroughly infected much of his base with besides those who were not already "birds of feather",  so no I don't see normal politics creating him, he created and lives the  insane and dangerous pathogen of himself in all of his corrupted glory. 

Edited by old3bob

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18 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

trump is in an  category of evil all by himself (except for other infamous dictators)...granted the horrific mid-east wars are a very dark and deadly  Bush legacy but Bush was far more a pawn of the influencing forces of that time while trump is a product of his own greed, malice, narcissism and megalomania from very early on in his life and which he has cultivated tall of his life - which he then thoroughly infected much of his base with besides those who were not already "birds of feather",  so no I don't see normal politics creating him, he created and lives the  insane and dangerous pathogen of himself in all his corrupted glory. 

 

I don't agree there. This kind of rhetoric elevates Trump into some sort of messiah of evil... which might compound his inflated ego but is just not true.

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