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3 hours ago, old3bob said:

those who refuse to see or consider proven facts and indulge in lies (and in some cases violence, racisim, destructive sedition, cult fanaticism, swallowing and spreading false  propaganda,  etc.) almost beyond measure have to be called something being that so many of them openly and proudly stand by such activities and behaviors... 

 

 

We agree about Trump and his supporters, old3bob, but not about how to relate to them.¬† In my view, they don¬īt need to be called anything.¬† They don¬īt need to be diagnosed.¬† Not if we want to work with them to change the direction the world is going in.

 

How do you react when you hear the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome?"¬† Personally, it makes me mad.¬† The people who use it don¬īt actually intend to relieve suffering by facilitating the treatment of a condition: they intend to bully.¬† The phrase brings me back to middle school when I was bullied by cruel classmates.¬† Use the TDS phrase and you¬īre not gonna have a productive conversation with me, I can tell ya that.

 

People who support Trump don¬īt like to be called names anymore than I do.¬† They don¬īt want to be put in a verbal box and written off as bad, racist, etc.¬† Calling names is not a useful way to build relationships.¬† Of course, sometimes we don¬īt want to build relationships.¬† Sometimes we want to have fun!¬† Calling names when we¬īre with like-minded folks reinforces in-group identity.¬† It¬īs reassuring to know that I¬īm right and you¬īre right and we¬īre part of a lovely circle of friends having coffee together who know what¬īs what.¬† Well and good.¬† But this kind of talk doesn¬īt bring people in.

 

If we want to create change we¬īre gonna have to listen.¬† We¬īre going to have to sit down with the people in our lives who think differently than we do and ask:¬†How did you come to believe the way you do?¬†¬†If we really listen we might come to understand something new.¬† Not every Trump supporter will be open to having this conversation with us but some will.¬† It¬īs the way out.

 

 

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Our current state of affairs is so deeply emotional and polarized it can be challenging to converse with others on the same side of the political divide, let alone the opposing side. It's unprecedented in my lifetime. I never had a problem discussing politics with anyone before 2016. Surprising how much divisiveness one political figure can create, but also how much consolidation. For example, who would have thought one politician could garner and maintain the support of large numbers of both Nazis and Jews?

Fascinating!

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17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

We agree about Trump and his supporters, old3bob, but not about how to relate to them.¬† In my view, they don¬īt need to be called anything.¬† They don¬īt need to be diagnosed.¬† Not if we want to work with them to change the direction the world is going in.

 

How do you react when you hear the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome?"¬† Personally, it makes me mad.¬† The people who use it don¬īt actually intend to relieve suffering by facilitating the treatment of a condition: they intend to bully.¬† The phrase brings me back to middle school when I was bullied by cruel classmates.¬† Use the TDS phrase and you¬īre not gonna have a productive conversation with me, I can tell ya that.

 

People who support Trump don¬īt like to be called names anymore than I do.¬† They don¬īt want to be put in a verbal box and written off as bad, racist, etc.¬† Calling names is not a useful way to build relationships.¬† Of course, sometimes we don¬īt want to build relationships.¬† Sometimes we want to have fun!¬† Calling names when we¬īre with like-minded folks reinforces in-group identity.¬† It¬īs reassuring to know that I¬īm right and you¬īre right and we¬īre part of a lovely circle of friends having coffee together who know what¬īs what.¬† Well and good.¬† But this kind of talk doesn¬īt bring people in.

 

If we want to create change we¬īre gonna have to listen.¬† We¬īre going to have to sit down with the people in our lives who think differently than we do and ask:¬†How did you come to believe the way you do?¬†¬†If we really listen we might come to understand something new.¬† Not every Trump supporter will be open to having this conversation with us but some will.¬† It¬īs the way out.

 

 

 

 

Tim Snyder makes a similar point in one of his books, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century. (2017)

 

Quote

11. Make eye contact and small talk.


This is not just polite. It is part of being a citizen and a responsible member of society. It is also a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down social barriers, and understand whom you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life.

 

 

 

‚ėģ

 

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14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It¬īs probably too much to ask but I¬īd prefer it if people who¬†like or dislike Trump would stop thinking of the "other side" as diseased.

 

Here's a Stanford psychiatrist's opinion, based on her 25 years of experience with patients.  She's not talking about Trump specifically, rather about the phenomenon of behavioral addiction, a substance addiction's kissing cousin.  Methinks Trump has become the drug of choice for both sides.  Correction: not "has become" but "was purposely made into" the drug of choice for the behavioral addicts, exactly the way prescriptions opioids, our ongoing and growing epidemic, were made into the drugs of choice for the substance addicts, and pretty much by the same entities.  Who don't want to see a healthy population because a healthy population threatens their sick power and their blood money, and because keeping everyone addicted and tunnel-visioned makes money and power for them.  

 

https://www.pairagraph.com/dialogue/efa31e60b1e2498588ddc10d074b494c?525

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4 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

  Methinks Trump has become the drug of choice for both sides.  

 

I never thought of it that way before, but now that you point it out...of course.¬† Thank you!¬† In the article you linked to the psychiatrist suggests abstinence from behavioral addictions as a way to regenerate healthier brain chemistry.¬† Would that work with Trump Talk too?¬† It¬īs certainly worth taking a break now and again.

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Reminds me of the early days of Howard Stern.

The only group that listened to his show more consistently than his rabid fans were his rabid detractors.

When his fans were polled about what they love about him they replied, 'I can't wait to hear what he says next!'

When his detractors were asked the same question they replied, 'I can't wait to hear what he says next!'

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47 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I never thought of it that way before, but now that you point it out...of course.¬† Thank you!¬† In the article you linked to the psychiatrist suggests abstinence from behavioral addictions as a way to regenerate healthier brain chemistry.¬† Would that work with Trump Talk too?¬† It¬īs certainly worth taking a break now and again.

 

I think it's step one.  Step two that can be quite healthy IMO is a pipe dream though, because like with any drug, the addiction rewires one's brain, and the neural pathways formed in the process are functioning pretty much like a fully formed specialized organ in the brain. We have this innate ability to form new system-organ-function connections in the brain -- in a healthy scenario it is how we form the "organ" for reading and writing, with all the pathways set permanently and specializing on the task.  Or for taijiquan, or for playing the piano, or for riding a bicycle. 

 

In an unhealthy scenario, it's the same persisting organ-system-fucntion creation that is behind the assertion "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic."  The only way an alcoholic can stop being an alcoholic is by never taking a drink again.  The best choice, which has helped many alcoholics become and remain sober, is to redirect the capacity for making these persisting pathways into something new and, ideally, good and healthy.  In the case of Trump addiction (like any other media addiction), the pipe dream would be to either never break the abstinence or to break it only toward listening to the other side -- that could help rebalance the brain and form new pathways instead of deepening and deepening the already-formed ones till they leave sinkholes and canyons where the ability for independent impartial (same root as "party") thinking used to be.  Not much of a chance unless it is accepted as a value though.  Alcoholics I've known believed people who don't drink are dumb boring prudes.  They never thought of themselves as being in the wrong, they always had this sense of superiority about their choices, or at least a very good excuse for having chosen to drink.  Only those who came to see normalcy as a value were able to quit drinking. 

Edited by Taomeow
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2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

If we want to create change we¬īre gonna have to listen.¬† We¬īre going to have to sit down with the people in our lives who think differently than we do and ask:¬†How did you come to believe the way you do?¬†¬†If we really listen we might come to understand something new.¬† Not every Trump supporter will be open to having this conversation with us but some will.¬† It¬īs the way out.

 

 

 

The other night I was at a friend's house.  A second friend showed up, a Trump supporter.  We were all seated around the fire ring on the patio.  My friend Charlene, whose house it was, immediately got into an argument with the Trump supporter.  It was the usual, the shouting getting louder and louder.

 

At one point during a silent moment, I asked the lady - what specifically do you like about him?  She started in on liking his immigration policy.  (We were all retired lady cops, and I'm sorry to say that this attitude is probably shared by most cops on the job).  I asked her quiet questions, drawing her out.  I had no intent to change her mind.  Her voice lowered, she explained point by point what he was doing 'right' in her mind.  I had to transcend ego to listen to her points so that my anger wouldn't flare.  It worked, at least from my point of view - I had virtually no reaction to anything she said.  I just listened.

 

My friend Char shook her head and said 'Boy, did I just learn something'.  Sandy (the Trumper) was able to settle down after she got it all out.  That's when it became possible to offer a suggestion of reconciliation.  I mentioned to her that I had relatives in Ohio who were scared to death (still!) that the BLM movement was going to come and overrun their town.  They are Fox listeners only, except maybe for the occasional Limbaugh hour.  I told Sandy that because my relatives were living in such fear, I had been tuning in to Fox on occasion.  The thing about doing that, is that it's like TWO TOTALLY SEPARATE REALITIES.  Every time there would be something huge and horrible that he was doing, I'd flip over to Fox and see how they were presenting it.  The answer is, they don't!  They are still occasionally running the old BLM protest footage.  Or sometimes I'll flip over and they're covering the best way to diaper your baby.  It's unbelievable.

 

So I mentioned this to Sandy (not the part about Fox not covering stuff) - about how we're all living in two separate realities.  It appealed to her old detective sense.  She became interested in seeing how the different news outlets were covering it differently.

So she said that maybe she would tune in to one of the other stations so she could see it for herself.

 

I'd call that a success, limited as it may be.

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14 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Alcoholics I've known believed people who don't drink are dumb boring prudes.  

 

 

Amen, lol.  I have been the most boring person in the world since I quit the grape.  I miss the days of coming out of a blackout in a long black slinky dress on New Years Eve, in the men's room of a bowling alley, puking into a toilet.  And having no idea how I got there.

 

I used to be great fun, if you had the stomach for me... :lol:

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15 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Amen, lol.  I have been the most boring person in the world since I quit the grape.  I miss the days of coming out of a blackout in a long black slinky dress on New Years Eve, in the men's room of a bowling alley, puking into a toilet.  And having no idea how I got there.

 

I used to be great fun, if you had the stomach for me... :lol:

 

At this point, I simply miss the days of even going to a bowling alley...

 

To TM’s point, I was recently informed that my lack of drinking was owing to the fear that the drinking (and then informing me about myself) party had not only embraced, but overcome by... (yep, you guessed it) drinking (and being willing to dance with that fear).. oi vey 

 

And to the thread itself, I’ve simply gone back to my old ways of not talking politics.. so much easier.

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16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It¬īs probably too much to ask but I¬īd prefer it if people who¬†like or dislike Trump would stop thinking of the "other side" as diseased.

I totally agree. That has been my message here going on five years now.

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57 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

 (like any other media addiction) 

 

Can you guess my media addiction of choice?¬† (Hint: you¬īre reading it.)¬† I often wonder if my brain has been hijacked by the gloriously intermittent reinforcement schedule of the Like Button.¬† Oh how I love to be liked!¬† Going cold turkey doesn¬īt seem like a likely option but I¬īm thinking of going with a harm reduction approach, maybe only keeping the site open for an hour or so in the mornings.¬† I never Bum anonymously so everybody will be able to see how I do.¬†¬†

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45 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Amen, lol.  I have been the most boring person in the world since I quit the grape.  I miss the days of coming out of a blackout in a long black slinky dress on New Years Eve, in the men's room of a bowling alley, puking into a toilet.  And having no idea how I got there.

 

I used to be great fun, if you had the stomach for me... :lol:

 

I only had that kind of fun in the teenage experimenting years between 16 and 19, but I remember it like just yesterday.  I simply stopped in time, but my best girlfriend and my on-and-off boyfriend of that time became alcoholics in the next three or four years.  No happy ending in either case.  Good for you for quitting, boring is part of alive and well, after all...  and there's other things to get excited or exciting about. :)    

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1 hour ago, zerostao said:

One of the more divisive talking heads, rush Limbaugh, has departed. 

 

Recipient of the presidential medal of freedom....  #gag

May he rest in peace nonetheless.

 

 

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4 hours ago, steve said:

 

Recipient of the presidential medal of freedom....  #gag

May he rest in peace nonetheless.

yeah RIP, the real win

is not being like them.

 

further, Limbaugh was pretty funny playing himself & Michael Moore in a Family Guy episode.  Showed a surprising sense of humor to be in such riske cartoon.  Actually was on Family Guy 3 times.  Here's one-

 

Edited by thelerner
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10 hours ago, steve said:

Our current state of affairs is so deeply emotional and polarized it can be challenging to converse with others on the same side of the political divide, let alone the opposing side. It's unprecedented in my lifetime. I never had a problem discussing politics with anyone before 2016. Surprising how much divisiveness one political figure can create, but also how much consolidation. For example, who would have thought one politician could garner and maintain the support of large numbers of both Nazis and Jews?

Fascinating!

Good points, Steve. 
On either side of the American political divide there exist further emotional fissions of their own. Compounded division. 
Each side has a conflict with the establishment. I’d think that would always be the case. Right now, it seems more pronounced, perhaps.

whether COVID-19 strengthens the establishment or turns it upside down, I think, remains to be seen. COVID-19 is a larger player than Trump IMO 
 

Edited by zerostao
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1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

If you research you'll come to the conclusion that real Nazis="Jews"=....

 

Care to elaborate?
 

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On 2/17/2021 at 8:15 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

We agree about Trump and his supporters, old3bob, but not about how to relate to them.¬† In my view, they don¬īt need to be called anything.¬† They don¬īt need to be diagnosed.¬† Not if we want to work with them to change the direction the world is going in.

 

How do you react when you hear the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome?"¬† Personally, it makes me mad.¬† The people who use it don¬īt actually intend to relieve suffering by facilitating the treatment of a condition: they intend to bully.¬† The phrase brings me back to middle school when I was bullied by cruel classmates.¬† Use the TDS phrase and you¬īre not gonna have a productive conversation with me, I can tell ya that.

 

People who support Trump don¬īt like to be called names anymore than I do.¬† They don¬īt want to be put in a verbal box and written off as bad, racist, etc.¬† Calling names is not a useful way to build relationships.¬† Of course, sometimes we don¬īt want to build relationships.¬† Sometimes we want to have fun!¬† Calling names when we¬īre with like-minded folks reinforces in-group identity.¬† It¬īs reassuring to know that I¬īm right and you¬īre right and we¬īre part of a lovely circle of friends having coffee together who know what¬īs what.¬† Well and good.¬† But this kind of talk doesn¬īt bring people in.

 

If we want to create change we¬īre gonna have to listen.¬† We¬īre going to have to sit down with the people in our lives who think differently than we do and ask:¬†How did you come to believe the way you do?¬†¬†If we really listen we might come to understand something new.¬† Not every Trump supporter will be open to having this conversation with us but some will.¬† It¬īs the way out.

 

 

 

that may work with a few people but very unlikely with the ones who are totally enthralled or brainwashed, and never with the masterminds of evil who are all in with it.  (aka trump and his lieutenants in the senate, the house and else-where who have sold their souls to evil through him)  So I suggest not overthinking things from a rational human point of view since that playing field of interaction has mostly been destroyed and has only ever worked with rational beings.   In the meantime the spiritual war goes on and the only thing demonic forces fear and thus respect is power and true power only comes with Dharmic truth,   not in trying to reason with those who have chucked truth and reason out the window!

Edited by old3bob

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16 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

After talking to many people about it recently I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as "the Nazis", that is black and white.

 

Kasparov.jpg.fd0d5de34b8604e88ed50bc4ef3eb242.jpg

 

‚ėģ

 

Edited by Daemon
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This thread has taken a bizarre turn since I last visited :(

 

I see elsewhere on the interwebs people are hating on some dead guy called Rush something.  From a spiritual perspective it's a very bad idea to hate on the dead and I don't know why people are so keen to do this.  Then I don't suppose many people would understand my reasons for saying this.

 

Hating someone can be as attaching as loving someone - especially when it becomes a habitual knee-jerk reaction.  I see the objection to the term TDS and particularly Luke's reaction to it.  I know it is painful to accept but the guy got 75m votes and not all of them can be screaming Nazis ... so maybe a bit of gentle reflection as to what was really going on for the last four years is timely.  If politicians don't care about groups of people in their policies then they get kicked at the ballot box.  Failure of leadership all across the west has lead to current times.  Very few are well served even though we are probably more prosperous than we have ever been in the history of mankind.  There is lack of vision and cynicism everywhere.

 

Don't be played.  Meditate and pray. 

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11 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

I received this private message.

 

Quoting private messages on the board is considered bad manners.

 

Quote

First of all let me tell you that it's anti-Semitic not anti-semetic.

 

Nit picking on grammar (especially as it relates to a moderator request to edit a post which was found to be offensive and reported as such) is also not the best idea.

 

Quote

No, I did not intend to be anti-Semitic, quite the opposite actually.

Perhaps I wasn't clear with the " " use.

What I meant is that the "Jews" are not real Jews.

Obviously real Nazis =/= (different) real Jews.

 

Doubling down is a straight up bad idea - which you have now publicly done, instead of simply editing the reported and offensive equation, or even engaging in a private discussion with the member of the moderation team who reached out to you.

 

A suspension is presently being discussed - with the idea being a timeframe for you to carry out the requested edit, or receive the suspension. But, as the only member on the team who presented the possible understanding of your post (which you have now presented in what I find to be a rather combative manner), I find myself displeased enough with your response that further discussion seems entirely unnecessary and unwarranted.

 

There is nothing more to discuss. You received a request to edit, and failed (refused) to comply. You are now suspended for one week.

 

Edit to add: the two most recent posts by the quoted member have been hidden owing to content which may be considered Anti-Semitic, and as such would be in violation of the rules of this site.

 

Edited by ilumairen
clarity
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5 hours ago, Apech said:

This thread has taken a bizarre turn since I last visited :(

 

I see elsewhere on the interwebs people are hating on some dead guy called Rush something.  From a spiritual perspective it's a very bad idea to hate on the dead and I don't know why people are so keen to do this.  Then I don't suppose many people would understand my reasons for saying this.

 

Hating someone can be as attaching as loving someone - especially when it becomes a habitual knee-jerk reaction.  I see the objection to the term TDS and particularly Luke's reaction to it.  I know it is painful to accept but the guy got 75m votes and not all of them can be screaming Nazis ... so maybe a bit of gentle reflection as to what was really going on for the last four years is timely.  If politicians don't care about groups of people in their policies then they get kicked at the ballot box.  Failure of leadership all across the west has lead to current times.  Very few are well served even though we are probably more prosperous than we have ever been in the history of mankind.  There is lack of vision and cynicism everywhere.

 

Don't be played.  Meditate and pray. 

Bizarre indeed. More bizarre than the turn this thread has taken is the turn the nation has taken. I cannot imagine a more disastrous start to a new administration. There are National Guard troops protecting the Inept and corrupt politicians¬†while there are no National Guard troops assisting those in dire need in Texas where a humanitarian catastrophe has been developing as Biden took a ‚Äúsnow day‚ÄĚ ,,,,words escape me.

The circus theatre of the Senate ‚Äútrial‚ÄĚ to attempt to ‚Äúconvict‚ÄĚ Trump when everyone in the world knew there was zero chance of arriving at a conviction while not addressing the serious condition the nation and the world finds itself in for well over a year now... again, words escape me.

The only thing Biden has done so far is try and reset to 2016, pre election. Time has moved forward, yo, it is 2021. Can we deal with 2021 instead of continuing to languish in the past?
there are serious problems to deal with, serious issues to deal with that are not named Donald J Trump.

It doesn’t end, call it TDS, politics or whatever, legislation is now being introduced to prevent a twice impeached president from being buried in Arlington. 
I agree 100 with apech‚Äôs assessment that ‚ÄúFailure of leadership¬†all across the west has led to current times.‚ÄĚ ¬†Unfortunately, it appears Failure marches on.

 

 

 

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On 2/17/2021 at 8:15 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

We agree about Trump and his supporters, old3bob, but not about how to relate to them.¬† In my view, they don¬īt need to be called anything.¬† They don¬īt need to be diagnosed.¬† Not if we want to work with them to change the direction the world is going in.

 

How do you react when you hear the phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome?"¬† Personally, it makes me mad.¬† The people who use it don¬īt actually intend to relieve suffering by facilitating the treatment of a condition: they intend to bully.¬† The phrase brings me back to middle school when I was bullied by cruel classmates.¬† Use the TDS phrase and you¬īre not gonna have a productive conversation with me, I can tell ya that.

 

People who support Trump don¬īt like to be called names anymore than I do.¬† They don¬īt want to be put in a verbal box and written off as bad, racist, etc.¬† Calling names is not a useful way to build relationships.¬† Of course, sometimes we don¬īt want to build relationships.¬† Sometimes we want to have fun!¬† Calling names when we¬īre with like-minded folks reinforces in-group identity.¬† It¬īs reassuring to know that I¬īm right and you¬īre right and we¬īre part of a lovely circle of friends having coffee together who know what¬īs what.¬† Well and good.¬† But this kind of talk doesn¬īt bring people in.

 

If we want to create change we¬īre gonna have to listen.¬† We¬īre going to have to sit down with the people in our lives who think differently than we do and ask:¬†How did you come to believe the way you do?¬†¬†If we really listen we might come to understand something new.¬† Not every Trump supporter will be open to having this conversation with us but some will.¬† It¬īs the way out.

 

 

We are and have been way past normal or dirty politics for several years...we have millions who are enthralled with cult like worship of or who follow and support an obviously demonically driven trump and his top cronies.  If it talks and lies like a demon, walks around arrogantly like a demon, commits acts of stealing and cheating like a demon, destroys like a demon, mocks like a demon, practices unveiled  malice like a demon, hurts people like a demon, indulges in wanton greed like a demon, assults women and various minorities like a demon would, etc. etc., then I say give no quarter to the demon or demonically driven and recognize him for what he plainly is...for if we don't  then expect the worst possible outcome.  (like the violent storming of the capitol causing death and injury which could have a thousand times worse!)  As for those who refuse to see facts or practice reason around such matters and thus cast their lot with anti-dharmic  or demonic forces they too will not escape  karma which comes for and makes all of us accountable sooner or later!

Edited by old3bob

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