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On 3/16/2020 at 3:10 PM, steve said:

That said, there are those who are capable of connecting to the source internally that allows them access to the most profound teachings sans teacher or lineage

Well said, IME: it's all about what you can/choose receive. Once teachers are summoned, and energy movement is enabled then, wei wu wei, in a creative focus, can produce celestial teachers on a level equal to the capacity of the student. Once the focus of the accomplished student is directed to internal creating (Neidan, internal alchemy) then a functional spirit body once created can then request entrance into any available unseen world training facilities.

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27 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

Well said, IME: it's all about what you can/choose receive. Once teachers are summoned, and energy movement is enabled then, wei wu wei, in a creative focus, can produce celestial teachers on a level equal to the capacity of the student. Once the focus of the accomplished student is directed to internal creating (Neidan, internal alchemy) then a functional spirit body once created can then request entrance into any available unseen world training facilities.

 

One word of caution, not everything we think is celestial or coming from the source is, in fact.

Far more likely we are listening to our discursive mind.

Discriminating wisdom is needed.

 

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16 minutes ago, steve said:

 

One word of caution, not everything we think is celestial or coming from the source is, in fact.

Far more likely we are listening to our discursive mind.

Discriminating wisdom is needed.

 

The book "Tibetan book of Dream Yoga" is an excellent book and people will do well to read it. While the context therein is about different types of dreams, same is also true for visions and interactions with other non-corporeal beings in the waking state. Some are merely projections of the mind. While others are really beings. Best is to be 'introduced' to the practice by a teacher, then the discerning ability increases in the individuals. 

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15 minutes ago, steve said:

 

One word of caution, not everything we think is celestial or coming from the source is, in fact.

Far more likely we are listening to our discursive mind.

Discriminating wisdom is needed.

 

Thank you for your comments. Few are so kind. I have respect for those who can walk the unseen world and visit me.

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1 minute ago, dwai said:

The book "Tibetan book of Dream Yoga" is an excellent book and people will do well to read it. While the context therein is about different types of dreams, same is also true for visions and interactions with other non-corporeal beings in the waking state. Some are merely projections of the mind. While others are really beings. Best is to be 'introduced' to the practice by a teacher, then the discerning ability increases in the individuals. 

Thank you for these deep meaning comments, it's not the words that teach but sometimes the meaning of the spirit 'when passed by willing hearts' can have merit. Experiential knowledge is taught to few, but experienced by many in unknown ways. I would say receive and become.

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21 hours ago, virtue said:

Thank you @Rara for your contribution. I have no idea what you mean by "well-acclaimed" in this context. Completeness of the art transmitted and the practitioner's genuine commitment are critical requirements, so dabbling around is not what I would endorse as a way of getting ahead. Besides, there are dabblers everywhere and topics catering to those interests on this forum, so this train of thought will be ignored now.

 

That's fair enough.

 

Also, that is the perfect response, because said well-acclaimed schools won't post anything complete anyway, but moreso advertise to go over to them.

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7 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

That's fair enough.

 

Also, that is the perfect response, because said well-acclaimed schools won't post anything complete anyway, but moreso advertise to go over to them.


100% true. Every internal arts book that markets itself as complete whether it’s Chia or LKC either give wrong or incomplete information. It’s all marketing for recruiting. Then many self-learners who go to them suddenly think they’re special and unique as it’s common for them to be told they’re part of the inner circle and given hidden techniques—but every time I meet someone who fits that description, those secret techniques end up being nothing special.

 

Some of the best people I’ve learned from are unknown. And for the public personalities, they are accessible for everyone and have specific guidelines that are simple, but humans have proven time and again that following instructions is a task that is unattainable for many.

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18 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:


100% true. Every internal arts book that markets itself as complete whether it’s Chia or LKC either give wrong or incomplete information. It’s all marketing for recruiting. Then many self-learners who go to them suddenly think they’re special and unique as it’s common for them to be told they’re part of the inner circle and given hidden techniques—but every time I meet someone who fits that description, those secret techniques end up being nothing special.

 

Some of the best people I’ve learned from are unknown. And for the public personalities, they are accessible for everyone and have specific guidelines that are simple, but humans have proven time and again that following instructions is a task that is unattainable for many.

 

Exactly!

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I would like to add something that is of interest: do not always trust an institution for quality of arts. Politics tend to lead an institution more than the art itself. 

 

Example: the Liuhebafa association in Hong Kong with Paul Roberts

 

By skill alone and his terrible posture, he is atrocious: 

 

home.jpg

 

 

I will post more in detail in another thread about why trusting institutions or individuals based on fame rather than fulfilling the five pillars as criteria for determining a good practice is going to waste your time. 

 

As for Paul Roberts and his teacher, there were multiple disciples besides Nelson Ma and the genealogy on the site is very misleading

 

To put it one way: the association is meant to serve the political and marketing issues of the association, but the actual successors with skill don't have much to do with them--but this is all I can describe publicly on the matter due to confidential information about the nature of the disciples after Chan Yikyan and Lau Sam Ok who taught our lineage master David Chan. 

 

Worth repeating again for reference are the five pillars: 

  • Good lineage - proven its test of time
  • Good system - proven it works
  • Good teacher - proven he or she not only have the skills but can impart them
  • Good community - proves that people don't just learn it but support each other as friends and family
  • Good student - prove that you are serious about learning and willing to go beyond mastery

If you do not have all five, you can have an okay system at best. But if you do not have the fifth pillar, then the previous 4 mean nothing. 

 

Likewise, just because there is a formal institution or association does not mean that the lineage is there--it can be sham lineage or someone who was kicked out had the money and connections to form a school and has pictures of their teachers with them, but rarely are they seen in the school or exchanging friendly banter. This eliminates the good lineage and good teacher and good community pillars immediately, but if it is a good system and one is a good student, one can see past it and make something out of it, though it is never optimal. 

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On 3/19/2020 at 4:15 PM, dwai said:

The book "Tibetan book of Dream Yoga" is an excellent book and people will do well to read it. While the context therein is about different types of dreams, same is also true for visions and interactions with other non-corporeal beings in the waking state. Some are merely projections of the mind. While others are really beings. 

 

At risk of derailing the thread, I’ll ask a rhetorical question. What are “really beings” from the non-dual perspective?

 

That quote struck me as uncharacteristic...

Not picking,  just piqued.

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2 hours ago, steve said:

 

At risk of derailing the thread, I’ll ask a rhetorical question. What are “really beings” from the non-dual perspective?

 

That quote struck me as uncharacteristic...

Not picking,  just piqued.

No worries — beings are just names and forms. :) 

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Wu Wei Qigong by George Xu - Supposedly activates an esoteric wheel in the belly to cultivate energy for the practitioner, which is similar to Falun Gong but without its limitations

 

where did you get this info from ? nothing like that is mentioned on the video

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On 16/03/2020 at 1:01 PM, virtue said:

Wu Wei Qigong by George Xu - Supposedly activates an esoteric wheel in the belly to cultivate energy for the practitioner, which is similar to Falun Gong but without its limitations

 

I see this mentioned over and again here as fact. This came from an individual reading of Tao Stillness from Eric Isen and in my opinion he was mistaken or muddled by the question (this happens with Eric from time to time).

 

Even if he was accurate in his reading, it is highly individualistic and it will affect every one differently. To say you can effectively practice in one system by doing other exercises is just wrong imo.

Edited by Vajra Fist

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For qigong practices that are safe and effective to practice from a DVD I'd add Spring Forest. As Chunyi Lin says there's no wrong way to practice it, just good, better and best.

 

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14 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I see this mentioned over and again here as fact. This came from an individual reading of Tao Stillness from Eric Isen and in my opinion he was mistaken or muddled by the question (this happens with Eric from time to time).

 

Even if he was accurate in his reading, it is highly individualistic and it will affect every one differently. To say you can effectively practice in one system by doing other exercises is just wrong imo.

Yeah there is no mention of anything like that in the video

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I have substantially extended and reworked the original post. I took notes on the feedback and saw that it could be improved.

 

Hopefully everyone is pleased with the end result!

 

My thanks go to  @C T, @dwai, @steve, and @freeform for their helpful suggestions and inspiration they have kindly provided.

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What a beautiful, labor intensive post. I have nothing to add, having long abandoned the path to self-study and taken on teachers to navigate the way that I have found quite difficult and dangerous. I have met a large number of people who did self-study (it is often the first step on the spiritual path), but usually I only meet them once their efforts have not been successful and they have turned to live teachers (which is where I usually meet them). 

 

So I have a few questions:

 

1. What is mastery? As in " the practitioner to advance from complete naivety to mastery"?

 

2. What is complete enlightenment? As in "a wisdom tradition that can take you all the way to complete enlightenment"?

 

3. How were these above statements verified? (i.e. that the self study paths can lead any given person to mastery or complete enlightenment?)

 

4. Are there examples of people who have successfully followed these paths to the end on their own?

 

5. Do any of these teachings have side effects?

 

6. Are these teachings proper for people with varying degrees of physical/mental illness? 

 

29 minutes ago, virtue said:

I have substantially extended and reworked the original post. I took notes on the feedback and saw that it could be improved.

 

Hopefully everyone is pleased with the end result!

 

My thanks go to  @C T, @dwai, @steve, and @freeform for their helpful suggestions and inspiration they have kindly provided.

 

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Just chiming in to say this is an excellent thread. Thank you @virtue for starting it and everyone who has contributed.

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