How/why does qigong work?

[EmeraldHead]

2 minutes ago, Sramana said:

 

Get a chair and do what he says as you listen for one hour.  It will be the best one hour qigong investment you will ever make.

The roots of Spring Forest Qigong are here.

Join Xiao Yao Pai and cultivate the yangshen and full dao for way cheaper.

They cultivate the highest states spoken in other traditions. Even if they don't promote it as such.

Edited February 28, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[freeform]

So maybe it's worth talking about how Qigong and Yi work together to mobilise Qi during movement?

 

First of all, there are many prerequisite principles that need to be in place for significant Qi mobilisation. This includes relaxed major muscles (muscles hanging off the bone)... and engaged fascial network that acts like internal rubber bands (your Jing Jin):

 

Song - which is a quality of active release (that allows you to get into the springy fascia network above)

 

Ting - which is a quality of 'listening' - a kind of passive absorption of consciousness into form (your body).

 

Now when these things are all in place - (and ingrained enough so that when you move you don't lose them) - you can finally begin 'doing qigong'.

 

At this stage, even a slight movement of your hand will have cascading effects all through your body (felt physically as pulling, stretching tensions like in the tensegrity model above) - every small movement becomes a whole-body movement.

 

Now if you hold your hands in a particular area - it's as if you're focusing your Yi, without using your mind...

 

Your body becomes like a collection of guitar strings along which vibration can travel - both physically and energetically. These 'strings' slip, slide and stretch throughout your whole body as you move.

 

As soon as you start using muscles to move - you lose all of this connection.

 

So movement in this way has a very different effect to 'waving your arms around'.

 

Moving with all these qualities in place is very hard! As in - it's difficult to make even basic movements.

 

That's why when you see authentic practitioners doing qigong (in the early/intermediate stage) - you'll see big puddles of sweat by their feet - even though all they're doing is opening and closing their hands at the belly.

[freeform]

19 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

I think if it sink when undisturbed then its natural tendency should be sinking down isn't it?

 

Yes

 

19 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

And mind movements disturb qi to stir and rise which is against its natural tendency and bad things happen?

 

Only bad in Qigong... otherwise it's 'normal'. It would be healthier to have qi sunk or reasonably spread through the body of course.

 

A lot of anxiety and panic disorders are the result of Qi moving strongly upwards and getting stuck... people will feel heart palpitations, their diaphragm will freeze (so it's hard to breathe) they become faint etc... That's an extreme example of too much qi moving up.

 

[Sramana]

27 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

Join Xiao Yao Pai and cultivate the yangshen and full dao for way cheaper.

They cultivate the highest states spoken in other traditions. Even if they don't promote it as such.

 

You misunderstand, Yan Xin does his work for free.  My statement about roots is because if Yan Xin had not healed Chunyi Lin, there would be no Spring Forest Qigong.  Chunyi also studied with Yan Xin's teacher.  China is actively trying to undermine Yan Xin because he has too much power.  Study the video or not.  Either you are ready or not.

 

[dawei]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

The natural tendency is for Qi to rise. Always. That's what it wants to do. It will only sink when it's undisturbed - like the muddy water in a jar analogy... leave it alone in stillness and the mud will settle to the bottom on its own accord - but move it even a little, and the mud will be stirred up and make the water cloudy again.

 

Willful thinking is a 'movement of mind' - and that stirs up the Qi - which rises. Prolonged thinking requires Qi in the head - so 90% of people are walking around with Qi in their head... In less industrialised nations it's quite different.

 

That seems a hard sell... try and say that to any acupuncturist who works with ascending and descending meridians.  The natural tendency is, Qi moves.   

[EmeraldHead]

51 minutes ago, Sramana said:

You misunderstand, Yan Xin does his work for free.

That's really great Thanks for being honest and supportive.

I'm not a fan of SFQ so I didn't like the advertisement to them. So I responded with the same coin jokingly.

 

But I'm not sure why you think someone is not ready for his stuff. It's nothing earth shaking. He's hasn't achieved the Dao or anything has he? As far as I sense he has a system of really basic cellular programming for energy.

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

That seems a hard sell... try and say that to any acupuncturist who works with ascending and descending meridians.  The natural tendency is, Qi moves.

 

The Qi of Qigong and the Qi of Chinese medicine are different.

 

The density, amount and 'strength' of Qi as developed in Qigong is very different from the Qi that runs an untrained person's subtle body.

 

(the Qi of Alchemy, Taiji, Feng Shui is also different...it's very much context-dependent)

[dawei]

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The Qi of Qigong and the Qi of Chinese medicine are different.

 

The density, amount and 'strength' of Qi as developed in Qigong is very different from the Qi that runs an untrained person's subtle body.

 

(the Qi of Alchemy, Taiji, Feng Shui is also different...it's very much context-dependent)

 

if you change the system or environment, you can claim anything is different.  In Taiji, the pressure differential will cause movement and it can be up or down. 

 

I just see you making an argument that that the Qi is attracted to the mind and thus flows upwards.  That is not the complete picture of what the mind and body are doing still.   Qi flows.   What influences that flow is myriad and can cause it to go in a direction and even not return so easily. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by dawei

[freeform]

49 minutes ago, dawei said:

That is not the complete picture of what the mind and body are doing still.   Qi flows.

Qi underlies everything. It’s impossible to give a complete picture of everything... so we contextualise...

 

49 minutes ago, dawei said:

I just see you making an argument that that the Qi is attracted to the mind and thus flows upwards.

That is not the complete picture of what the mind and body are doing still.

I’m just pointing to the classical qigong principle - Qi follows Yi. Not trying to describe the nature all phenomena.

[dawei]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

Qi underlies everything. It’s impossible to give a complete picture of everything... so we contextualise...

 

I’m just pointing to the classical qigong principle - Qi follows Yi. Not trying to describe the nature all phenomena.

 

I'm good with that.  Although you seemed to have problems with visualization now you insist the classical qigong principle of Yi (intention).  I don't really see them as that much different but I think we came closer to common ground.  Thanks. 

[EmeraldHead]

17 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’m just pointing to the classical qigong principle - Qi follows Yi. Not trying to describe the nature all phenomena.

thing is, Yi follows preheaven and the Dao. so it's importance or role in cultivation changes eventually.

 

there are also some schools and sources which seem to hint that the LDT requires more than simple Yi of normal people straight from the streets, to activate it truly.

 

What people notice as Yi, is simply their post-natal chi mind. So their chi will also attract the Yi. So what they call Yi tends to be a little....well, not the full story.

[Sramana]

2 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

That's really great Thanks for being honest and supportive.

I'm not a fan of SFQ so I didn't like the advertisement to them. So I responded with the same coin jokingly.

 

But I'm not sure why you think someone is not ready for his stuff. It's nothing earth shaking. He's hasn't achieved the Dao or anything has he? As far as I sense he has a system of really basic cellular programming for energy.

 

2 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

That's really great Thanks for being honest and supportive.

I'm not a fan of SFQ so I didn't like the advertisement to them. So I responded with the same coin jokingly.

 

But I'm not sure why you think someone is not ready for his stuff. It's nothing earth shaking. He's hasn't achieved the Dao or anything has he? As far as I sense he has a system of really basic cellular programming for energy.

 

Many consider him the greatest healer in at least a hundred years.  I consider that earth shaking.  But, I think you should probably move on and look somewhere else.

[freeform]

22 minutes ago, dawei said:

classical qigong principle of Yi (intention)

 

Classical principles sound simple - but there is a lot packed into them... they require long study and consideration.

 

As I explained here - Yi is not 'intention as we commonly think - and it's certainly not visualization.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Yi is a lot more nuanced than that - it's the underlying quality of your mind - not the direction you focus. Yi is achieved with letting go or release... visualization and 'directed intention' are achieved with adding a willful mental action - which is directly the opposite of release.

 

27 minutes ago, dawei said:

I think we came closer to common ground.

 

I'm afraid not.

 

I had a private chat with someone... and I need to make it clear that I'm talking about visualization in Qigong, Neidan, Taiji etc... It has its uses elsewhere and with other practices - where it can be effective in what it's used for. It can also be used to communicate ideas... like when I was talking about guitar strings under tension transferring vibration...

 

But if you think you're moving Qi to any useful extent or fusing Kan and Li by imagining stuff, I'm really sorry but that's a big mistake and a waste of your time.

 

Imagination in these practices creates imaginary results.

[dawei]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Classical principles sound simple - but there is a lot packed into them... they require long study and consideration.

 

As I explained here - Yi is not 'intention as we commonly think - and it's certainly not visualization.

 

Sure, if you're going to take sentences instead of using a translated word.    You choose not to translate it, and that is fine.

 

Quote

I had a private chat with someone... and I need to make it clear that I'm talking about visualization in Qigong, Neidan, Taiji etc... It has its uses elsewhere and with other practices - where it can be effective in what it's used for. It can also be used to communicate ideas... like when I was talking about guitar strings under tension transferring vibration...

 

But if you think you're moving Qi to any useful extent or fusing Kan and Li by imagining stuff, I'm really sorry but that's a big mistake and a waste of your time.

 

Imagination in these practices creates imaginary results.

 

I think you're imaging too much with examples.  I don't know about most of what you suggest folks might be trying to do... and I left it a long time ago... no worries. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by dawei

[EmeraldHead]

52 minutes ago, Sramana said:

I think you should probably move on and look somewhere else.

Once again, the need to defend yourself or guide me in anyway gives me a cultist feel.

[Sramana]

24 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

Once again, the need to defend yourself or guide me in anyway gives me a cultist feel.

 

Please! As you wish.  I am sure that I have wasted enough of your precious time.  So, please do not be offended if I no longer respond to you in this thread.

[EmeraldHead]

11 minutes ago, Sramana said:

I am sure that I have wasted enough of your precious time

That is alright. I chose to reply.

 

I thought we were going to discuss his system. To me it seems to be a simple cellular based programming. That surely doesn't make him that great. But hey, maybe there's more to it than what's now on youtube and the few pdfs on scribd or else. Maybe he too has sources. That could at least help internet seekers find more. The wheel spins attentively anyway

Edited February 28, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

So maybe it's worth talking about how Qigong and Yi work together to mobilise Qi during movement?

 

First of all, there are many prerequisite principles that need to be in place for significant Qi mobilisation. This includes relaxed major muscles (muscles hanging off the bone)... and engaged fascial network that acts like internal rubber bands (your Jing Jin):

 

Song - which is a quality of active release (that allows you to get into the springy fascia network above)

 

Ting - which is a quality of 'listening' - a kind of passive absorption of consciousness into form (your body).

 

 

Hi Freeform,

 

So I´m wondering, does the practice of Yi Jin Jing develop these things -- relaxed major muscles, engaged fascial network, song, ting?  Is that it´s purpose?

 

Thanks!

[dwai]

The intent needs to be like a bowstring and the qi like an arrow. You load the arrow (qi) into your bow (body), pull the string (intent) back and release it in the direction you want it to go.

 

This is my experience/opinion, so please have grains of salt handy -- 

 

But I would have to disagree to the position that imagination doesn't have a role to play. When someone starts off down the path of qigong etc, they have no way to conceptualize what they're going to practice. In such a case, it does become a case of "waving one's hands" (like the OP suggested) -- so the student has to use imagination. For example, when we generate a taiji ball (or qi ball), we have to imagine we have it between our palms initially. With practice one day the ball becomes tangible and real -- when you press into it, it presses back. When you try to pull it apart, it resists (like a magnet). It is not a physiological thing at all.  In fact, if we didn't do the "imagining" part, the physical strength won't release easily (no song). No song, no ting, no peng. 

 

The kind of person I see having most issues with this is the extremely cerebral/skeptical kind. Also another kind who struggles are those who are very stubborn. 

 

Also another interesting thing I notice is that some kinds of "visualization" won't work unless we have energetic/conscious access to it. For example, I used to tell my student, when doing some standing postures, to expand the energy ball to fill half the room in front of him and push against it, and let his mind fill the space that was "not ball". For the longest time, he was unable to do this -- would say, he has difficulty visualizing this. When he developed further as a practitioner, he was able to do it. But the key is to keep working at it. 

We keep working on it despite the murkiness of the "visualization",  and one day there is a quantum jump and everything becomes crystal clear. and ability manifests. 

 

 

 

[Lazgrane]

Afaik visualization is entirely in the mind. It's ok if you are developing your mind, but trying to do qi gong with it is like trying to train yourself to swim by sitting home imagining yourself swimming. Not very productive.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

So I´m wondering, does the practice of Yi Jin Jing develop these things -- relaxed major muscles, engaged fascial network, song, ting?  Is that it´s purpose?

Relaxed major muscles are really a prerequisite for YJJ to work well - as well as some skill with song and ting.

 

YJJ builds this fascial network and makes it stronger, more connected, more robust. It also works to open the channels (sinew channels) and generates a lot of Qi. Although the Qi generation part of it is usually kept secret.

 

Hope that helps.

 

As a hint - the Qi generation aspect is related to what I’ve been talking about in this thread.

[Zork]

On 2/29/2020 at 1:07 AM, freeform said:

YJJ builds this fascial network and makes it stronger, more connected, more robust. It also works to open the channels (sinew channels) and generates a lot of Qi. Although the Qi generation part of it is usually kept secret.

Any correctly practiced YJJ or a specific form of YJJ by daoist circles?

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Any correctly practiced YJJ or a specific form of YJJ by daoist circles?

Generally YJJ is a set of principles - there is no YJJ set or system. It’s a set of principles that should be applied to all qigong, Neigong and even internal martial arts.

 

There are some qigong sets that work the YJJ principles more and some less - but they should be in all authentic qigong.

[freeform]

An exceptionally clear talk about YJJ

 

 

[Immortal4life]

People have given some decent answers here. Xin connecting to the Yi, Yi connecting to the Qi, Qi to the body, the movements specifically designed based on tcm and yin yang for dredging the channels, openng and closing the joints and acupoints, expanding and contracting the torso to exercise the internal organs, opening and closing the lungs, strengthening the lower body to develop the ming men and kidneys. 

 

But the most basic thing in the beginning that you shouldn't overlook is simply relaxation of the body and mind. That's the first step to all of the things mentioned above. Relaxation. Developing softness. The other thing is that in qigong you aren't just moving the arms, through relaxation and focused intent you're connecting the movements of the whole body, allowing you to get your deeper into the body, distinguishing the channels, the bones, the muscles, the tendons. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Immortal4life