Weather Magick

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Et aranearum facere muscas captare.
 

 

Telam Totius Orbis Terrarum

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

These answers might interest you from these posts: 

 

 

15. What is the #1 thing that TDB needs now?

Image: Congregating in a mess hall, eating and enjoying Christmas and Thanksgiving-like atmospheres where we all acknowledge why we are here, we are a good community and family, share food with one another, give gifts, and appreciate that joy. We are all a good group who ultimately wish to be our best, but we are caught up in who works best in what context and who is right and who is wrong. 

 

16. If there is something that we need to be asking that we all want to ask but don't know the words or what it is, show us what the question is and what the answer is.

"How can I accept I am unable to encourage others to beware of things that would harm them?"

 

Accept that we are here just like when a woman comes into the clinic and says her son or daughter was unable to listen to them. We are not their parents and we as parents are not the ones who control them (our children) or what they do. We accept them as triage and guide them as we are welcome to work with them only as they accept that we are here to help them.

 

And then this post: 

 

 

 

15. What is the #1 thing that TDB needs now? 

 

  Hexagram card

 

 

16. If there is something that we need to be asking that we all want to ask but don't know the words or what it is, show us what the question is and what the answer is.

 

Lovers 

 

 

 

This was a solid overview of the forum and quite balanced in its approach.

 

I just want to add one thing that I don't condone, for this forum or elsewhere, and that is flaunting. Flaunting of wealth for example. It's one thing to have material things, but to flaunt them is another.

 

The flaunting of things is such a pervasive sub-culture, just look at the media. People flaunt their looks, material things, and sexuality, right in your face, all the time.

 

The message we receive is that our ordinary life isn't rich enough, our looks aren't good enough, and we aren't enough.  And this happens in spiritual circles too, people can come here and flaunt their spiritual achievements too.

 

What good does this do ? I don't really see any. It makes people with less money, lesser looks, and less spiritual experiences, feel lonely and abnormal. I don't think we should come to DaoBums to strut our bling but to level with others, and help them out if needed, in the spirit of Dao. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Sebastian said:

 

This was a solid overview of the forum and quite balanced in its approach.

 

I just want to add one thing that I don't condone, for this forum or elsewhere, and that is flaunting. Flaunting of wealth for example. It's one thing to have material things, but to flaunt them is another.

 

The flaunting of things is such a pervasive sub-culture, just look at the media. People flaunt their looks, material things, and sexuality, right in your face, all the time.

 

The message we receive is that our ordinary life isn't rich enough, our looks aren't good enough, and we aren't enough.  And this happens in spiritual circles too, people can come here and flaunt their spiritual achievements too.

 

What good does this do ? I don't really see any. It makes people with less money, lesser looks, and less spiritual experiences, feel lonely and abnormal. I don't think we should come to DaoBums to strut our bling but to level with others, and help them out if needed, in the spirit of Dao. 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to post follow up questions on that thread and I’ll consult!

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

Just to clarify, my question was why were these people contacting him, not about why they were having their experiences.  The internet is the answer to why they contacted him, as to why he or they were having their experiences, that is why I posted this:

 

 

I hope this clarifies the matter.

 

ZYD

 

Yes , regarding the internet and how people found him  .   

 

Regarding the rest of your above post ( and I am taking the bolded bits as the most significant )  there are ways (at least in western tradition )  of  ' I.D.'  , testing ,  classifying after examination , etc .   I  wrote here about that recently  regarding the question 'how does one know '    and also a few times in the past I have mentioned  testing , seeking validity  ( which should be part of the ceremony or process )  when encountering  any  'entity'  , spirit , apparition , God, 'Master' , etc .

 

We  (including you )   also looked at material I supplied from a clinical psychological source re the 'possessed  / insane  '  treatment in an asylum  in  comparison with Swedenborg's  theories and writings  , and identifying good or harmful ( and tricky deceiving ) 'spirits'  / 'hallucinations'  /  'possessing entities .

 

So there are ways of doing this .    Thing is , not many people here  seem aware of it and just go on face value  or  'trust'  .  I've mentioned it a few times  .... no one has really followed it up , after its been mentioned .    People here have got in trouble with things like this , again I have mentioned this process  ..... nothing .

 

Have I missed it , or is it something people dont pay much attention to ?     ....   

 

Surely Daoism must have this process in Daoist Magic  ?  The above story highlights mistakes of stupidity ( I mean he even said who he was from the beginning    )   but I cant detect any 'spirit' testing  anywhere in it .   .

 

 

Anyway , you are probably one of the few that knows what I mean from a western magical perspective  and would know the answer if such 'testing' exists (or should exist  ) in Daoist magic  .

 

Or  others with a deep knowledge on this might want to answer as well .

[Zhongyongdaoist]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yes , regarding the internet and how people found him  .   

 

Regarding the rest of your above post ( and I am taking the bolded bits as the most significant )  there are ways (at least in western tradition )  of  ' I.D.'  , testing ,  classifying after examination , etc .   I  wrote here about that recently  regarding the question 'how does one know '    and also a few times in the past I have mentioned  testing , seeking validity  ( which should be part of the ceremony or process )  when encountering  any  'entity'  , spirit , apparition , God, 'Master' , etc .

 

We  (including you )   also looked at material I supplied from a clinical psychological source re the 'possessed  / insane  '  treatment in an asylum  in  comparison with Swedenborg's  theories and writings  , and identifying good or harmful ( and tricky deceiving ) 'spirits'  / 'hallucinations'  /  'possessing entities .

 

So there are ways of doing this .    Thing is , not many people here  seem aware of it and just go on face value  or  'trust'  .  I've mentioned it a few times  .... no one has really followed it up , after its been mentioned .    People here have got in trouble with things like this , again I have mentioned this process  ..... nothing .

 

Have I missed it , or is it something people dont pay much attention to ?     ....   

 

Surely Daoism must have this process in Daoist Magic  ?  The above story highlights mistakes of stupidity ( I mean he even said who he was from the beginning    )   but I cant detect any 'spirit' testing  anywhere in it .   .

 

 

Anyway , you are probably one of the few that knows what I mean from a western magical perspective  and would know the answer if such 'testing' exists (or should exist  ) in Daoist magic  .

 

Or  others with a deep knowledge on this might want to answer as well .

 

Of course Chinese magicians have methods for testing out spirits, but how many real Chinese magicians are on the Dao Bums?  The Dao Bums is hardly a hotbed of Chinese magic, most of our members have no interest whatsoever in magic of any type, so you can hardly judge anything about Chinese magic by what appears here.  Even among Western Magicians, how many of them actually do the necessary testing?  I don't have time to say more about this now, but I am working on longer responses to some of the issues raised in this thread, and a dozen other things more important to me personally as well.

 

ZYD

[Lord Josh Allen]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes , regarding the internet and how people found him  .   

 

Regarding the rest of your above post ( and I am taking the bolded bits as the most significant )  there are ways (at least in western tradition )  of  ' I.D.'  , testing ,  classifying after examination , etc .   I  wrote here about that recently  regarding the question 'how does one know '    and also a few times in the past I have mentioned  testing , seeking validity  ( which should be part of the ceremony or process )  when encountering  any  'entity'  , spirit , apparition , God, 'Master' , etc .

 

We  (including you )   also looked at material I supplied from a clinical psychological source re the 'possessed  / insane  '  treatment in an asylum  in  comparison with Swedenborg's  theories and writings  , and identifying good or harmful ( and tricky deceiving ) 'spirits'  / 'hallucinations'  /  'possessing entities .

 

So there are ways of doing this .    Thing is , not many people here  seem aware of it and just go on face value  or  'trust'  .  I've mentioned it a few times  .... no one has really followed it up , after its been mentioned .    People here have got in trouble with things like this , again I have mentioned this process  ..... nothing .

 

Have I missed it , or is it something people dont pay much attention to ?     ....   

 

Surely Daoism must have this process in Daoist Magic  ?  The above story highlights mistakes of stupidity ( I mean he even said who he was from the beginning    )   but I cant detect any 'spirit' testing  anywhere in it .   .

 

 

Anyway , you are probably one of the few that knows what I mean from a western magical perspective  and would know the answer if such 'testing' exists (or should exist  ) in Daoist magic  .

 

Or  others with a deep knowledge on this might want to answer as well .

 

One thing that has surprised me with this forum wasn't people's reactions to me as a person but the lack of ritualistic Occultism. I half expected this site to be similar to BALG, a forum on ceremonial high magick which places great emphasis on tools, robes, technicalities, spoken incantations, making pacts with spirits, etc. This forum seems more a place for martial arts, philosophy, and meditation and less of a place for candle magick, altar setups, manifestations via ritual, sympathetic magick, etc. I'm not saying this as a negative, just an observation. I know proper Occult forums are niche and Taoist Occult forums are very niche. 

 

Deceptive entities and trickster spirits are commonplace for those who practice invocation and evocation. This is why the "ritual chamber" is created. A ritual chamber is a process of filtering out intrusive and unwelcome spirits, to prevent them from showing up during a working. Consider it an invisible forcefield of qi which completely covers the length and width of a room or in my case, an outdoor altar. In the same way, doctors and surgeons make sure all the tools are sterilized to prevent contamination in a theatre room, the chamber sterilizes the room/temple/altar for the magician and it purifies everything. This is essential because residual energy which is left by other spirits during past workings stays around. If you don't practice good "spiritual hygiene" this could lead to possession. 

 

I'm very careful about this. Concluding and closing communication is another important point. When you channel, evoke and invoke, you open up a gateway into another realm for entities to temporarily visit you and speak to you. If you don't properly close it during the conclusion of the ritual, it will cause problems. Sometimes, the aim of a ritual is not to avoid possession but to actually encourage it. This is a major aspect of Left-Hand Path magick and is reserved for the adept. This is NOT safe nor is it something I am recommending but I have tried it many times. There are many methods for this: I'll give you the one I've done before. 

 

Sandwriting: The magician is required to drink a cup of talismanic water which has been charged with the energies of the spirit he or she wants to reach, a Fu talisman is burnt and its ashes are collected into a jade cup. The aim is to contact a spirit, invoke it, let it possess you and allow the spirit to take control of your physical body to become a medium. The magician will usually go into a deep trance and lose track of time. The spirit will use the hands of the person to write messages in the sand. This sand should be fine, white and light in weight. It is common for the magician to sweat profusely whilst this is happening and the eyes are usually shut. When the magician awakens, they will then work to decipher the often cryptic and archaic messages which may be personal in nature. Usually, spirits will tell you things that nobody else, not even you could know. I've done this about a dozen times. 

 

The golden question, is it dangerous? It could be, it is a big risk but it depends on three factors. How competent are you as a magician and as a medium? Experience is key here. What spirit are you trying to contact? Build up a relationship with the spirit and don't rush into a ritual without establishing some groundwork first. Lastly, why are you making contact? Always go in with a reason. If you have no experience, don't do it, if you don't know the spirit, don't do it and if you don't have a concrete reason such as a question that you want answering, don't do it. 

[SirPalomides]

Just now, Lord Josh Allen said:

 

One thing that has surprised me with this forum wasn't people's reactions to me as a person but the lack of ritualistic Occultism. I half expected this site to be similar to BALG, a forum on ceremonial high magick which places great emphasis on tools, robes, technicalities, spoken incantations, making pacts with spirits, etc. This forum seems more a place for martial arts, philosophy, and meditation and less of a place for candle magick, altar setups, manifestations via ritual, sympathetic magick, etc. I'm not saying this as a negative, just an observation. I know proper Occult forums are niche and Taoist Occult forums are very niche. 

 

For what it's worth, while my knowledge of these practices is pretty rudimentary, they interest me greatly and I've started a few discussions related to them. Generally I'm a fan of liturgy and devotional practices; the martial arts stuff, while definitely cool, is not my particular interest. So by all means don't be shy about discussing what interests you.

 

Just now, Lord Josh Allen said:

 

Deceptive entities and trickster spirits are commonplace for those who practice invocation and evocation. This is why the "ritual chamber" is created.

 

In Daoism there is "jing shi" 淨室 or "qing shi" 清室, "Quiet Chamber" or "Pure Chamber." This can be a room for meditation but also for rituals and incantations. Typical Daoist rituals will begin with a series of purifying and exorcistic spells. The scripture I translated here tells devotees to worship Taiyi Jiuku in the jing shi on the third and ninth of every month. In early Tianshi and Lingbao Daoism every Daoist household was supposed to have such a room.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

Of course Chinese magicians have methods for testing out spirits, but how many real Chinese magicians are on the Dao Bums?  The Dao Bums is hardly a hotbed of Chinese magic, most of our members have no interest whatsoever in magic of any type, so you can hardly judge anything about Chinese magic by what appears here.  Even among Western Magicians, how many of them actually do the necessary testing?  I don't have time to say more about this now, but I am working on longer responses to some of the issues raised in this thread, and a dozen other things more important to me personally as well.

 

ZYD

 

Okay, I see that a similar dynamic happens east to west  (  here on DBs, and other places  ) .   Thanks for response .

 

As far as I can tell ,  Western  Magicians (or those that claim to be ) are slack about this as well .  Most people that are aware of it and criticise dont practice magic , they just say " are you guys nuts ?  How do you know it is isnt .....  would you let someone in your house if they just claimed to be  .... (so and so )  ... etc .

 

Looking forward to your longer responses , thanks, ( I know you are busy and have little time for this  -    as you tell us each time you post         )

[Nungali]

The funny thing is , last night I turn on TV  movie channel SBS and the first thing I see is  3 crazy Chinese magicians  demanding  who is the demon , one has  huge mirror  that he points at them , one has a collection of papers talismans and 'stuff' the third does some magical kung moves  ( winding up  ),  solid stance , hand mudra and 'kapow ' !   Blasts the chi hand mudra, mirror goes off like a laser beam , incantations  ....  nothing .  2nd person  - nothing .  3rd person - she transforms into  a spider and attacks  them .  

 

'Synchronicity '    .... love it ! 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

 

One thing that has surprised me with this forum wasn't people's reactions to me as a person but the lack of ritualistic Occultism. I half expected this site to be similar to BALG, a forum on ceremonial high magick which places great emphasis on tools, robes, technicalities, spoken incantations, making pacts with spirits, etc. This forum seems more a place for martial arts, philosophy, and meditation and less of a place for candle magick, altar setups, manifestations via ritual, sympathetic magick, etc. I'm not saying this as a negative, just an observation. I know proper Occult forums are niche and Taoist Occult forums are very niche. 

 

I think this is why an esoteric occult forum was set up within this site .   That might be a better place to post such stuff ?

 

Maybe I should visit these sites you mention and check them out .    I actually first came here due to a linked hit I got on evocation .

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

 

Deceptive entities and trickster spirits are commonplace for those who practice invocation and evocation. This is why the "ritual chamber" is created. A ritual chamber is a process of filtering out intrusive and unwelcome spirits, to prevent them from showing up during a working. Consider it an invisible forcefield of qi which completely covers the length and width of a room or in my case, an outdoor altar. In the same way, doctors and surgeons make sure all the tools are sterilized to prevent contamination in a theatre room, the chamber sterilizes the room/temple/altar for the magician and it purifies everything. This is essential because residual energy which is left by other spirits during past workings stays around. If you don't practice good "spiritual hygiene" this could lead to possession. 

 

I'm very careful about this. Concluding and closing communication is another important point. When you channel, evoke and invoke, you open up a gateway into another realm for entities to temporarily visit you and speak to you. If you don't properly close it during the conclusion of the ritual, it will cause problems. Sometimes, the aim of a ritual is not to avoid possession but to actually encourage it. This is a major aspect of Left-Hand Path magick and is reserved for the adept. This is NOT safe nor is it something I am recommending but I have tried it many times. There are many methods for this: I'll give you the one I've done before. 

 

Sandwriting: The magician is required to drink a cup of talismanic water which has been charged with the energies of the spirit he or she wants to reach, a Fu talisman is burnt and its ashes are collected into a jade cup. The aim is to contact a spirit, invoke it, let it possess you and allow the spirit to take control of your physical body to become a medium. The magician will usually go into a deep trance and lose track of time. The spirit will use the hands of the person to write messages in the sand. This sand should be fine, white and light in weight. It is common for the magician to sweat profusely whilst this is happening and the eyes are usually shut. When the magician awakens, they will then work to decipher the often cryptic and archaic messages which may be personal in nature. Usually, spirits will tell you things that nobody else, not even you could know. I've done this about a dozen times. 

 

The golden question, is it dangerous? It could be, it is a big risk but it depends on three factors. How competent are you as a magician and as a medium? Experience is key here. What spirit are you trying to contact? Build up a relationship with the spirit and don't rush into a ritual without establishing some groundwork first. Lastly, why are you making contact? Always go in with a reason. If you have no experience, don't do it, if you don't know the spirit, don't do it and if you don't have a concrete reason such as a question that you want answering, don't do it. 

 

[Nungali]

more later ... gotta go chainsaw up a fallen down tree in my garden .

[SirPalomides]

The thing is, in Daoism historically, the “occult” and ceremonial magic stuff isn’t fringe, it’s front and center. There was a time when things like qigong would be considered superfluous or even heterodox by Daoists who believed you could maintain your health by knowing how to summon and command the right spirits. 

[phil]

21 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

The thing is, in Daoism historically, the “occult” and ceremonial magic stuff isn’t fringe, it’s front and center. There was a time when things like qigong would be considered superfluous or even heterodox by Daoists who believed you could maintain your health by knowing how to summon and command the right spirits. 

I would like to know what makes you think that occult / magic stuff was such an important element in Daoism? In my opinion, at least texts like the Tao Te Ching or Zhuangzi indicate the opposite, since many references to qigong / meditation can be found and it's all about self-realization (so that the strength comes from yourself, without needing any magic) and aligning with the Dao, which I always saw as quite the opposite to summon spirits. 

[SirPalomides]

Laozi and Zhuangzi are important figures in Daoism but Daoism did not exist until centuries after they wrote. Daoism begins with groups like the Tianshi, Shangqing, and Lingbao movements.

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, SirPalomides said:

Laozi and Zhuangzi are important figures in Daoism but Daoism did not exist until centuries after they wrote. Daoism begins with groups like the Tianshi, Shangqing, and Lingbao movements.

 

Fuxi, actually.  Long before Laozi and Zhuangzi.  The first book included into the Daozang or Taoist Canon was the I Ching.  

 

The original and the best.  The rest is 1,120 volumes of the icing on the cake.

[SirPalomides]

Well, okay, but then the I Ching is mighty magical!

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

 

One thing that has surprised me with this forum wasn't people's reactions to me as a person but the lack of ritualistic Occultism. I half expected this site to be similar to BALG, a forum on ceremonial high magick which places great emphasis on tools, robes, technicalities, spoken incantations, making pacts with spirits, etc. This forum seems more a place for martial arts, philosophy, and meditation and less of a place for candle magick, altar setups, manifestations via ritual, sympathetic magick, etc. I'm not saying this as a negative, just an observation. I know proper Occult forums are niche and Taoist Occult forums are very niche. 

 

< Phew >  ... morning 'tea' time / coffee recharge .

 

You probably know the following, I'll just comment here  in case others might be interested ;

 

 

Quote

 

Deceptive entities and trickster spirits are commonplace for those who practice invocation and evocation. This is why the "ritual chamber" is created.

 

Similar with concept of a  consecrated temple and within  'the magic circle ' .

 

Quote

A ritual chamber is a process of filtering out intrusive and unwelcome spirits, to prevent them from showing up during a working. Consider it an invisible forcefield of qi which completely covers the length and width of a room or in my case, an outdoor altar.

 

Or a sphere  ( which also  goes through the ground and under the magician )

 

Quote

In the same way, doctors and surgeons make sure all the tools are sterilized to prevent contamination in a theatre room, the chamber sterilizes the room/temple/altar for the magician and it purifies everything.

 

 

Thats handy .   I spent weeks and weeks   making, purifying  and consecrating  each  'tool'  separately .

 

Quote

This is essential because residual energy which is left by other spirits during past workings stays around. If you don't practice good "spiritual hygiene" this could lead to possession. 

 

I'm very careful about this. Concluding and closing communication is another important point.

 

'The Licence to Depart '  .

 

 

Quote

When you channel, evoke and invoke, you open up a gateway into another realm for entities to temporarily visit you and speak to you. If you don't properly close it during the conclusion of the ritual, it will cause problems. Sometimes, the aim of a ritual is not to avoid possession but to actually encourage it.

 

Is this possession or  'invocation'  ?    Some systems  dont like possession , others like voodoo  seem to have no issue about it .

 

{ an example of 'testing possession' in a voodoo ceremony I went to . A  rather mischievous chap was   saying he was possessed by a certain Loa .   That Loa's offering and favourite food included chilli , chilli oil was on that Loa's segment on the offering altar up behind his veve .   So  one of the people there goes and gets a bottle of chilli oil  and goes up to this guy .... " Then you will love to drink this ."

 

 " Errrmmmm ....   "       He drank it  .... and  he handled it VERY well  .... but you could see a supreme effort was required  ...... his face was pretty funny as he was 'enjoying ' it  .     }

 

Quote

 

This is a major aspect of Left-Hand Path magick and is reserved for the adept. This is NOT safe nor is it something I am recommending but I have tried it many times. There are many methods for this: I'll give you the one I've done before. 

 

Sandwriting: The magician is required to drink a cup of talismanic water which has been charged with the energies of the spirit he or she wants to reach, a Fu talisman is burnt and its ashes are collected into a jade cup. The aim is to contact a spirit, invoke it, let it possess you and allow the spirit to take control of your physical body to become a medium. The magician will usually go into a deep trance and lose track of time. The spirit will use the hands of the person to write messages in the sand. This sand should be fine, white and light in weight. It is common for the magician to sweat profusely whilst this is happening and the eyes are usually shut. When the magician awakens, they will then work to decipher the often cryptic and archaic messages which may be personal in nature. Usually, spirits will tell you things that nobody else, not even you could know. I've done this about a dozen times. 

 

That is one  indication .    Wilson Van Dusen lists differences between 'bad and good'  'spirits' and' hallucinations'   (he uses the term hallucinations as he worked in a psych hospital and observed ' possession') .  He decided to test these good and bad  'spirits' one indicator was ;   Good 'possessing' spirits can give information that seems beyond  what the 'possessee ' could know .  The bad ones cant , they can only have knowledge  that the person does .    They claim to be able to  but use lies, trickery, diversions,   insults    (straw men and ad hominem   ... wait !   why is this sounding familiar ?      )

 

I've put this up a few times ,  you might   find it interesting ;

 

http://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

https://maps.org/research-archive/psychedelicreview/n11/n11063dus.pdf

 

 

Quote

 

The golden question, is it dangerous? It could be, it is a big risk but it depends on three factors. How competent are you as a magician and as a medium? Experience is key here. What spirit are you trying to contact? Build up a relationship with the spirit and don't rush into a ritual without establishing some groundwork first. Lastly, why are you making contact? Always go in with a reason. If you have no experience, don't do it, if you don't know the spirit, don't do it and if you don't have a concrete reason such as a question that you want answering, don't do it. 

 

'Concrete reason '  - indeed .    I was taught to write up each ritual before hand , like I used to do in school science  when doing an experiment .   The first heading was AIM .   then method, equipment, preparations ,  ritual,  closing  . Then notes and observations during and afterwards and finally  CONCLUSION . 

 

.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

 

2 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Well, okay, but then the I Ching is mighty magical!

 

Of course it is, and I didn't object to the assertion that taoist magic, derived from proto-taoist shamanism (my main area of interest and a good chunk of practical experience), was not peripheral but central, the cat's meow of it all.  Just to presenting the origins of institutional/religious taoism as the origins of taoism. 

 

While I'm at it, let me throw in another comment, to your original assertion that "there was a time when things like qigong would be considered superfluous" -- indeed, but that time came later, and earlier times knew magical qigong.  The word may be new, but the practice itself has archeological evidence of having been around and about for at least 7,000 years.  That is, e.g., the age of a Neolithic vessel that depicts a wu xi 巫覡 in qigong posture, and this 4,000 year old silk painting from a burial has postures that at least some of the modern qigong practitioners will be stoked to recognize as their own practice:

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Taomeow

[steve]

On 2/18/2020 at 6:24 PM, manitou said:

. I may not be in the majority here, but I think the most freedom is found in the path of no path at all.  No structure.  I don't consider myself an -ist of any kind.  But I do think the path of no-path is a self realization, a realization of who or what it is that we really are.  Once we learn who we are and learn to do the sorcery of wei wu wei - that's when the real magic occurs.

 

But we have to self-realize first.  There's the rub.

 

 

 

I just read something and thought of you...

 

If you’re in search of a guru, the moon is taking students. She’s a subtle, powerful teacher, with ample availability and tons of experience. She charges no fees and assigns no exercises. Her illumination is literal, indisputable, and eternal, lighting the way where Buddhas are born and slayed.

The ninth-century Zen master Chin Lee instructed, “if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” In his essay “Killing the Buddha,” author and neuroscientist Sam Harris examines this surprisingly violent koan, writing, “Like much of Zen teaching, this seems too cute by half, but it makes a valuable point: to turn the Buddha into a religious fetish is to miss the essence of what he taught.”

What he taught, after all, is that we all are born Buddhas. Teachers may aid in this realization, but objectifying gurus just obscures and externalizes what’s only ever found within — and lost again. Each of us must reach this understanding individually and experientially, not intellectually. My saying this doesn’t mean much until you’ve sensed it to be true. So, Lin Chi wasn’t advising actual violence but urging students to be ruthless in their quest for truth and liberation.

 

No one and nothing can grant freedom. But if they’re old school, like Lin Chi, what gurus can do is beat you with a stick so you’ll stop thinking and intuit the truth. Or, if they’re more modern in their approach, they can gently coax you into practices that enhance intuition and cultivate discipline, like meditation. Or, if they’re enduring, like the moon, they’ll just illuminate whatever path you take.

In the Zen tradition, you’re as likely to be illuminated by accident as by practice. There are countless parables that highlight this fact, like the one about a man who’s instantly enlightened overhearing a butcher telling a choosy customer that every cut on the porker before her is a good one. You get zero spiritual points for avid efforts because there’s no score to keep and no one to impress. There are just experiences and the stories we tell ourselves.

So, please allow me to share a tale of two moons and too much trying, which may amuse you Buddhas.

Once upon a time

Many moons ago, when I was 25, living in Japan teaching English, I rode a bike from the town of Inazawa to the city of Nagoya and back to practice judo. The dojo was all-male and there were no other foreigners, so mostly it was awkward and not that charming. And, often, with my head locked between the knees of a handsome Japanese youth, I wondered what I was doing.

What did all this tumbling, grunting, bowing, and fighting politely have to do with me, born in Israel, raised in the US, and educated by a French mother who prohibited playing soccer to preserve my pretty knees for skirts? What did this have to do with becoming a writer or crafting an adult life (which I gathered was what I should be doing)?

One night, as I was riding despondently back from practice, a one-hour journey that took me along a straight, empty stretch of road surrounded by fields, I noticed the bright moon, round and large. It was right there with me, every time, every ride, always slightly different, waxing or waning, lighter or dimmer, and I realized, laughing happily, “The moon is my friend!”

And something shifted. This moment released me from the vice grip of wishing things were different. I had friends in high places, so everything was already ok. Life didn’t have be some other way… even if I did sometimes find myself with a jock clamping my noggin between his knees.

It was a moment of liberation. In the 22 years since, I’ve turned to texts and teachers to help me cultivate practices to keep in touch with this feeling, or — more precisely — with whatever feelings and experiences arise. I’ve sat in Zen temples, contorted in yoga studies, studied Sufism, pondered Kabbalah, and holed up in a tiny cabin in the woods to read countless books. These efforts have informed me, providing a vocabulary for framing experience, but my most effective lessons have always happened by moonlight, when I finally wasn’t trying.

In Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, the late Tibetan Buddhist teacher Chögyam Trungpa warns,

“The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly attempting to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing… which we try to imitate. We do not actually want to identify with or become the teachings.”

In other words, sometimes we reinforce the very things we claim to be seeking to deconstruct with spiritual practice. Delusions. Ego. We’re attached to forms and notions because the substance of Zen isn’t sexy and we kind of wish it was. It’s pretty dull, really, as plain as the light of day or the moon shining at night. It’s as simple as, “Eat your rice. Wash your bowl.”

We all need guidance. But sometimes we use it to hide from instead of find ourselves, accessorizing existence with attractive activities and ideas. We think that a retreat is what we need or a really great teacher or a better routine or even a cool outfit that makes us feel real spiritual (all black, all white, coarse cloth, extra soft?). Students get confused, confounding the finger pointing at the moon — externalities — with the moon itself. We ornament the days with rituals but reject the premise they are built upon; simple brilliance, totally ordinary ordinariness. We resist the very lesson we’re attempting to learn and remain lost as a result.

Lost and found

About five years after befriending the moon in Japan, I served in the Peace Corps in Senegal, where I had a lot of time to stare at the sky. My service took place in Goudem Ndeb, a tiny, destitute village of 43 people—30 of whom were children—deep in the bush, about ten miles from a paved road and the nearest bottle of Coca Cola.

My goal had been to get away from the frantic pace of New York City. So, while I worked at ABC News, among dozens of booming televisions and hundreds of writers and producers, I planned an escape that would take me to a quieter, simpler, more spiritual place, whatever that means. It would be, I imagined, a retreat, and there I’d meditate my way to peace.

The joke was on me. Village life wasn’t quiet. It was loud, stinky, hot, dusty, and uncomfortable. Every night, in my small hut in this place that appears on no maps, I’d light a candle and sit and sweat as bugs paraded across the walls and hyenas howled in the bush. It didn’t feel spiritual. It felt stupid, frankly. Because there I was, with my privileged existential struggle, trying to wrest meaning from life when the meaning of life, clearly, was survival. And I was ill-equipped to survive in this place where nature ruled and the bush ground everything to dust.

 

I didn’t know where to collect wood for cooking, how to eat at a communal bowl with my hands, ride a horse, catch a fish, sweep a dusty compound with a bundle of sticks, or deal with the stream of kids that followed me like the pied piper. Locals came from far and wide to observe and laugh at my ineptitude which really wasn’t rude because, for one thing, I was a hoot, and also because in a place where a passing car is occasion for celebration, of course the presence of a guest from afar is entertaining.

One afternoon, about six months in, I wandered off to the nearby river to get away. But when the tide changed and I was walking back, I suddenly had no idea how to reach my village. Night fell. It rained. I walked and walked and thought longingly about my squalid hut and the fine, plain, gray, sandy millet couscous that we ate in the evenings, missing the parade of children. I wished I was home. By home, I meant Goudem Ndeb.

Now, you might be saying, as I did then, “What a perfect time to sit under a baobob like a Buddha.” But I was wet and hungry and scared. Mosquitoes were devouring me and hyenas howled nearby. So, after about fifteen minutes of sitting, I decided to walk with a dim moon for company, wondering if I was destined to die young and stupid and full of delusions.

I didn’t know where I was going. I just hoped to find a road that would lead to a village. At dawn, after about ten hours of walking, following the sound of what I thought were barking dogs, I got lucky. Never has a ramshackle collection of thatched huts looked so luxurious!

A woman hanging laundry in her yard screamed when she saw me, a pathetic, pale, soggy apparition. Yet she offered me breakfast, and afterwards her husband walked me to Gouden Ndeb, lecturing the whole way back in Serer (a West African language I didn’t realize I understood so well until his soliloquy made me wince more than each aching step). Rhetorically, he asked with a laugh, “Why wander when everything you need is at home?”

Why, indeed? The depth of his question wasn’t lost on me. It’s what Zen masters have asked in a thousand different ways as students submit to teachers, and memorize sutras, and torture the truth.

When we arrived in the village, there was a whole posse gathered from near and far, mournfully planning hunt strategy—how would they find the lost American? They cheered at my arrival and I fell into the arms of my village mother. We both cried with joy and relief to see each other.

That night, clean, wearing dry clothes, lying happily on woven mats after a dinner of plain millet, surrounded by children, I stared skyward at my friend, the moon, and remembered what it’s always been saying—from dusk to dawn since the dawn of time. Ordinary life is just fine

 

~ Ephrat Livni from The Lion’s Roar

[flowing hands]

18 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Laozi and Zhuangzi are important figures in Daoism but Daoism did not exist until centuries after they wrote. Daoism begins with groups like the Tianshi, Shangqing, and Lingbao movements.

 

I'm afraid you are misinformed. Huang Di (2697 BCE) was first associated with Dao. Lao Tzu (Lei Erh) 600 BCE brought Dao into thought and prose and from then Dao religion was founded by Chang tao ling, based on the writings and teachings of Lei Erh,  and Zhuang Shi. So the five pecks of rice and then from this the celestial masters were formed. Before any of these Dao was an adjective used by ancient shamans and escoterics to describe certain states of nature and mind.

Edited February 20, 2020 by flowing hands
typo

[SirPalomides]

Nope. "Dao" is not Daoism, otherwise Confucians, Legalists, Buddhists, and others are all Daoists too.

[Taomeow]

So, according to some interpretations, being a taoist is like being an Oxford guy -- you can't be it unless someone accepts you in a formal ceremony.  It's apparently different from being a Christian -- you can be that by believing in Christ, or a Moslem (declaring that there's no god besides Allah makes you one), or a Jew (all you have to do is be born to a Jewish mother), or a Hinduist (any number of things can qualify you -- you can be that by birth, by religious observance, by geographical location, or by choice.)  In Jainism, you can undertake self-study and become either a lay follower or a Jain monk, your choice.  

 

On the other hand, to be a Jesuit, a Hasid, or a Maoshan sorcerer, someone has to formally accept you as such.  But those are movements, sects, schools within a larger context of their respective denominations.  If taoism is in the same boat with these, it renders it a school, sect, or whatever subsidiary of the main denomination.  So, if taoism is a sect, what main denomination is it the sect of? 

 

???

 

    

[liminal_luke]

When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – – that’s all.”

 

- Lewis Carroll

[SirPalomides]

I don’t want to get into a “who really is a Daoist” debate- all I want to say is that, historically, in Daoism, magic, spirit invocation, etc is not marginal and was in fact central for some very important Daoist movements.

Edited February 20, 2020 by SirPalomides

[Lord Josh Allen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

46

21 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

< Phew >  ... morning 'tea' time / coffee recharge .

 

You probably know the following, I'll just comment here  in case others might be interested ;

 

 

 

Similar with concept of a  consecrated temple and within  'the magic circle ' .

 

 

Or a sphere  ( which also  goes through the ground and under the magician )

 

 

Thats handy .   I spent weeks and weeks   making, purifying  and consecrating  each  'tool'  separately .

 

 

'The Licence to Depart '  .

 

 

 

Is this possession or  'invocation'  ?    Some systems  dont like possession , others like voodoo  seem to have no issue about it .

 

{ an example of 'testing possession' in a voodoo ceremony I went to . A  rather mischievous chap was   saying he was possessed by a certain Loa .   That Loa's offering and favourite food included chilli , chilli oil was on that Loa's segment on the offering altar up behind his veve .   So  one of the people there goes and gets a bottle of chilli oil  and goes up to this guy .... " Then you will love to drink this ."

 

 " Errrmmmm ....   "       He drank it  .... and  he handled it VERY well  .... but you could see a supreme effort was required  ...... his face was pretty funny as he was 'enjoying ' it  .     }

 

 

That is one  indication .    Wilson Van Dusen lists differences between 'bad and good'  'spirits' and' hallucinations'   (he uses the term hallucinations as he worked in a psych hospital and observed ' possession') .  He decided to test these good and bad  'spirits' one indicator was ;   Good 'possessing' spirits can give information that seems beyond  what the 'possessee ' could know .  The bad ones cant , they can only have knowledge  that the person does .    They claim to be able to  but use lies, trickery, diversions,   insults    (straw men and ad hominem   ... wait !   why is this sounding familiar ?      )

 

I've put this up a few times ,  you might   find it interesting ;

 

http://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

https://maps.org/research-archive/psychedelicreview/n11/n11063dus.pdf

 

 

 

'Concrete reason '  - indeed .    I was taught to write up each ritual before hand , like I used to do in school science  when doing an experiment .   The first heading was AIM .   then method, equipment, preparations ,  ritual,  closing  . Then notes and observations during and afterwards and finally  CONCLUSION . 

 

.

Hi, I hope you got my PM earlier about the Occult forums. Funny that you bring up Voodoo, one of my close friends is deep into the Voodoo system and would know a lot more about it than me but yes you are right. Some traditions are against possession, others embrace it fully. I like the idea of creating a sphere that goes through the ground. I may just try that for my own practice. 

 

I view invocation as calling a spirit to come forward without surrendering your own self-control. Its power inhabits you but its consciousness does it. Those who invoke tend to invite the spirit to enter their bodies but they have strict rules and limitations regarding the procedure. Only a "part" of the spirit is allowed to use your body as its temporary home. You retain full control over your physical body, thoughts, and behavior whereas with a full-blown possession, once it happens you have no control because the spirit overrides you completely. You aren't even aware of anything as the spirit has hijacked your entire state of being, this is why people speak in different voices and appear to go crazy. With possession, you get the spirits voice, personality, history and other baggage. With an invocation, you should never lose control of yourself. 

 

The downside to invocation is this: The practice is far more gentle than people think. Unless you are gifted and naturally attuned, most people agree that typical invocations don't accomplish much. It takes many workings to make a good difference whereas one experience of possession could be life-changing or life-destroying, depending on the outcome. Invocations are much safer but more drawn out. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out!