alchemystical

Are we already dead? Is this actually hell?

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The more I think, look and seek the more obvious this all seems to me. Whichever way you break it down we are consciousness that is intertwined with matter and I mean that not in a woo woo kind of way but simple fact for anyone that has done some bodywork, qigong etc... as you see clearly how the body acts a "brake" on what we call the mind, if left to its own devices and even that is an illusion as you can't really say where one ends and the other begins but anyway:

 

The world is beautiful yet populated by horrible people who do cruel things with a smile. Most are completely unaware of self whilst, paradoxically, being entirely self centered. Virtually everything that should unite becomes a tool to divide and it seems conflict becomes inevitable, no matter which pieces are on the table, nor how they are arranged.

 

Everybody is suffering, rich or poor, in ways both obvious and subtle. Apart from the smug, self satisfied twats that love to pop up on boards like this and spout endless waffle as "evidence" of how self realized they are. Relationships are based on convenience and are mostly thinly disguised business transactions with a thin veneer of emotion thrown on top. Family situations aren't much different really if you get down to brass tacks as people fear success, especially yours, as it means they haven't progressed.

 

I could go on but you get the point.

 

Ages ago I used to think that people who sat around meditating, emptying their mind to grasp nothing were totally wasting their lives when there was so much they could be doing but now as I mature I realize they really were onto something because its all fake anyway, just with a million different guises and (if my limited conception of Buddhism is right) the aim is to remain detached from all the delusion this illusion has to offer in order to avoid being chained to the wheel of time for another life which leads me think:

 

Are we already dead? Is this actually hell?

 

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24 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

Are we already dead?

No, but one day we will be.

 

Quote

 

Is this actually hell?

 

Depends where you put your focus.  In the West, it may be dull, the getting up, going to work stuff but hopefully we have friends and family at the end of the day.  Hopefully our bodies are working alright, we're fed, clothed and sleeping in a warm place, with excellent chances the same will happen tomorrow and next week.  Thats not hell, thats something to appreciate.  Cause there's many who don't have that. 

 

Imo, there's more good then bad.  I think most people are good, though bad ones can do a whole lot of harm.  Living in massive communities creates indifference.  Much has to do with where you focus.  The reality is a mix.  We have a responsibility to do some good, and grousing about the bad and evil, doesn't cook the rice. 

 

 

Here's a Zen fable.

A samurai sees Zen master and asks him 'What is hell?'

The Zen master looks at him and says 'You are a stupid unkempt Samurai'

The samurai's face turns angry, he raises his sword and steps toward.

The Zen master faces the samurai gestures towards him and says 'That is hell'

Samurai sheathes his sword and bows. 

Edited by thelerner
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See the funny thing about it is that there is just enough goodness to inspire hope that keeps people wading through the hell because if it were all the way bad then folks would actively rebel and seek emancipation. This way the programming is good enough to stick to the majority of people so they don't question the scenario.

 

Based on your reply you've completely missed my point.

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11 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

 

Based on your reply you've completely missed my point.

No, I get your point**.  I just disagree with it. 

sorry, your dead and in hell. 

 

If you think it requires the actions of other people to get you out, then you'll probably stay the way you are. 

Do you think there's anyway for you to make yourself alive and not in hell? 

 

 

 

**note I raised 3 teenagers and was once one myself.  I know angst,  existential depression and anger.

Edited by thelerner
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You're a bit on a obtuse [word removed by system], aren't you? From my point of view you're dodging the point of this thread like Neo in the Matrix but I don't presume to be able to say what your intent is.

 

Either way, congratulations on missing the point not once but twice. Fancy going for a triple?

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because its all fake anyway

 

Is it?

 

Why didn't somebody say something!

 

Actually its all reality but only very breifly to each life since its from born to dead very quickly in terms of geological time even for centenarians.

 

Does it come down to how you 'think' your reality?

 

Is anything either good or bad but thinking makes it so (sorry Shakespear)?

 

Yes, its all organic or inorganic and we're organisms acting like organisms but with an ability towards consciousness so I'd posit that we're all very much alive but some more-so than others.

 

Can we not make a heaven in to hell or a hell into heaven?
 

Quote


for anyone that has done some bodywork, qigong etc... as you see clearly how the body acts a "brake" on what we call the mind, if left to its own devices and even that is an illusion as you can't really say where one ends and the other begins but anyway:

 

 

Do you mean that ones mental condition is governed by ones physical condition?

 

In part perhaps but I've met many a happier person than I with some very morbid physical conditions but also some healthier with very disturbed mentality. I get a 'high' from daoyin type stuff but it doesn't last and must be cultivated but worse, the 'down' seems quite bad despite the fact that its simply my old 'normal'.

 

Anyway, talk of hell infers a heaven and to my knowledge heaven is very quiet on the topic of its own existence so its probably best to just strive to be cheerful enough, healthy enough and do ones best eh?

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i find the portals to divine and hellish experience are generated and maintained within my own awareness.

 

in the end, what are heaven and hell but names for that 'which i like' and that 'which i don't'?

how i process what arises in awareness...

determines the state and quality of experiental reality in that moment.

 

what awareness is drawn to linger on and focus upon...

determines the nature of the conditions that awareness can be aware of.

 

where sensory input is available, it tends to dominate awareness.

why do all lineages stress silence?

 

Buddha's words:  Take care what you allow yourself to think, this becomes your reality.

 

Yea, to try a simple statement of it: the portals to heaven and hell are perceived as generated from within my own mind experience... my experience of reality relying upon awareness, which is a direct product of conditioning.  Both states are generated from within and are maintained by the inertia of emotional and mental awareness, (or lack there of), and by my reaction to the stimulus of co-arising aggregates (the bulk of which when in trance is unconscious conditioned lack of free will).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, alchemystical said:

You're a bit on a obtuse [word removed by system], aren't you? From my point of view you're dodging the point of this thread like Neo in the Matrix but I don't presume to be able to say what your intent is.

 

Either way, congratulations on missing the point not once but twice. Fancy going for a triple?

I'll go for a triple, why not, don't cost nothin.

 

I did get the Matrix idea, but was working on  the 'World is awful' section.  Which I believe will affect your 'reality' more then the 'I'm living in the Matrix and the controller is sadistic'.   From that point of view you quickly get stuck in angry wallow mode.  The more control you have over your life (not the world) the better the chances of improving it.  Its not the red pill you needs its taking proper action. 

 

I get that your family was unsatisfactory.   Forgive them, or move on, is a step in the right direction.  Concentrate on your locus of control, not the world.  The forefather of the Matrix meme was existentialism, generally they didn't lead happy lives.  As reality proves itself relentless people accept it and work on themselves. 

 

The most important question to you is: Can you think of a way to get yourself out of hell?

 

 

personally, trying to be a good person, helping friends & family, taking time to smell the flowers, making a good living has been my way. 

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if you had ever crawled around in the horrors of the hell realms you would know far better, so no this is not a hell realm it is the earth realm.  And give thanks for that! 

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12 hours ago, thelerner said:

I'll go for a triple, why not, don't cost nothin.

 

I did get the Matrix idea, but was working on  the 'World is awful' section.  Which I believe will affect your 'reality' more then the 'I'm living in the Matrix and the controller is sadistic'.   From that point of view you quickly get stuck in angry wallow mode.  The more control you have over your life (not the world) the better the chances of improving it.  Its not the red pill you needs its taking proper action. 

 

I get that your family was unsatisfactory.   Forgive them, or move on, is a step in the right direction.  Concentrate on your locus of control, not the world.  The forefather of the Matrix meme was existentialism, generally they didn't lead happy lives.  As reality proves itself relentless people accept it and work on themselves. 

 

The most important question to you is: Can you think of a way to get yourself out of hell?

 

 

personally, trying to be a good person, helping friends & family, taking time to smell the flowers, making a good living has been my way. 

 

Armchair psychologist slash professional navel gazer slash man who evidently has way too much time on his hands based on postig history, eh? Once again you completely miss the point and this makes me wonder if you're actually a dumb twat or just doing a really good job of portraying one? The last sentence you offered proves without a doubt that you simply don't comprehend what I've been saying at all so jog on muppet.

 

40 minutes ago, old3bob said:

if you had ever crawled around in the horrors of the hell realms you would know far better, so no this is not a hell realm it is the earth realm.  And give thanks for that! 

 

Now this is interesting. Care to expound further?

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I think it's much worse than that.  In hell you can tell who the bad guys are.

Human beings live in a very bad state of "consciousness" which gives rise to incredible barbarity, incredible self-centered confidence, insincerity and so on.  Not only is the species not Conscious but it is at a level that is too low to really work on the problem.  The state of human Consciousness is also too low to be predictable, many people live from many different types of "consciousness/ subconsciousness".

Everybody has countless ideas to fix mankind's problem, but they don't actually know what the problem is.

The situation is very unsatisfactory and there is a good deal of anger and revenge (at anyone) in society, and a good deal of complete insincerity.  Some of the stupidest people in society are setting the markers for society, and some of the best are hidden.

If somebody somewhere does find out an answer then it is quickly buried by the sludge of mankind, it will not survive.

Therefore "extreme methods" are required, for instance if you do Vipassana every day it does not actually lead to enlightenment on its own but it does create something useful inside you.

Strong basic regular hard practice is needed, whilst also being compassionate on the outside.

Fancy stuff is not required.  Many choices are not required.  Nobody is making it here.

In fact many people don't even know if they are enlightened, or even if they are happy or unhappy ... many of these things are assumed indirectly.

Getting the basics of life right is important.

The world pours  out millions of people babbling with their ideas that are fed into an engine like fuel.

This world is "better than hell" in that there are opportunities ... but it is "worse than hell" because of terrible flow of billions of ideas and people that is destructive to making progress ... nevertheeless if you can get it together to do regular practice you can make good progress.

We may watch the news and hope for some good thing to happen, but after a few decades of this you realise something is very wrong with the whole picture.

Emerging from the darkness mankind has made an "as-if world", everything looks just right ... except everything is only "as if", everything looking closer is wrong.  It is the world from a species under the threshold of Consciousness.

In this world you get into a fast car and floor it to the city limits, do not stop here.  That is the only way.

 

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Well, it didn't take long for me to remember I had clicked on a GD thread, coming back to it post-distraction :D Always fun reading.

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There is no good and bad except for the way that I perceive it.

Yin and yang circulate through all things as Nature works to express itself in all possible ways by manifesting through the ten thousand things, of which we are a part.

All we will ever have control over is how we perceive the aspects of the world around us.

 

I am constantly trying to cultivate awareness, so that I can identify the aspects of my life that I perceive as "bad" or difficult, so that I can either re-frame them in a new context in my own mind, or rearrange my reactions to them in a way the mitigates the impact on my life. Having children is a wonderful daily challenge to my own perceptions and preconceptions.

On a difficult day, when I am feeling as if my control over the situation has slipped away form me, I might feel as if I am in a terrible place, "trapped" and suffering. If I am able to rely on my practices, breathing, qigong, simple stretching or sitting and forgetting, I can often circle myself back around to a position where I am grateful to have the experiences that I am having.

The way in which each aspect of nature follows its own path is a wonderful and beautiful thing to behold if we can allow ourselves to appreciate it for what it is, and to get out of our own way.

 

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Sounds like more twisted Mr. G crap, Rideforever, which he let go of himself in the end.

Edited by old3bob

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4 hours ago, alchemystical said:

 

Armchair psychologist slash professional navel gazer slash man .. so jog on muppet.

 

I see you as a young guy.  Smart enough to disguise there depression and angst as 'Matrix is real' philosophy.  Which has been done for ages, though before sci fy it was Mara.  Maybe I post too much but part of that is to lead an examined life.  How to make it better, exploring ideas.  Figuring out what works.. leaving bread crumbs for myself. 

 

You dismiss my posts angrily without answering the question 'How do you think you get out of hell?'   Its an important question that you shouldn't ignore. 

 

As a kid, maybe between 5 to 7 there was a period where I considered I was the only one in existence and the powers that be were watching my moves.  Some variation of that is probably not too uncommon.  Maybe even more so with the generation after the Matrix.

 

As an adult how I've melded that into my life is one section of my blog.  Life as Dream section.  Which explored the Dream author Moss's theme of taking dreams more seriously, and life less seriously or rather see life from a dream perspective, ie looking at life more symbolically.  Seeking out synchronicities.  Getting a little more shamanic with life, looking for the messages the universe is giving you.  

 

Not the extreme of 'its all illusion' but looking closely and thinking how external things can be sending you messages.  Its a practice not only shamanic but probably religious people do more.. the looking for signs.  I'm not to active with that concept anymore but its a good practice.  Might create a good midpoint between Matrix thinking and reality. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, rideforever said:

I think it's much worse than that.  In hell you can tell who the bad guys are.

Human beings live in a very bad state of "consciousness" which gives rise to incredible barbarity, incredible self-centered confidence, insincerity and so on.  Not only is the species not Conscious but it is at a level that is too low to really work on the problem.  The state of human Consciousness is also too low to be predictable, many people live from many different types of "consciousness/ subconsciousness".

Everybody has countless ideas to fix mankind's problem, but they don't actually know what the problem is.

The situation is very unsatisfactory and there is a good deal of anger and revenge (at anyone) in society, and a good deal of complete insincerity.  Some of the stupidest people in society are setting the markers for society, and some of the best are hidden.

If somebody somewhere does find out an answer then it is quickly buried by the sludge of mankind, it will not survive.

Therefore "extreme methods" are required, for instance if you do Vipassana every day it does not actually lead to enlightenment on its own but it does create something useful inside you.

Strong basic regular hard practice is needed, whilst also being compassionate on the outside.

Fancy stuff is not required.  Many choices are not required.  Nobody is making it here.

In fact many people don't even know if they are enlightened, or even if they are happy or unhappy ... many of these things are assumed indirectly.

Getting the basics of life right is important.

The world pours  out millions of people babbling with their ideas that are fed into an engine like fuel.

This world is "better than hell" in that there are opportunities ... but it is "worse than hell" because of terrible flow of billions of ideas and people that is destructive to making progress ... nevertheeless if you can get it together to do regular practice you can make good progress.

We may watch the news and hope for some good thing to happen, but after a few decades of this you realise something is very wrong with the whole picture.

Emerging from the darkness mankind has made an "as-if world", everything looks just right ... except everything is only "as if", everything looking closer is wrong.  It is the world from a species under the threshold of Consciousness.

In this world you get into a fast car and floor it to the city limits, do not stop here.  That is the only way.

 

 

Now this I vibe with because you're getting my drift. Something is messed up in a very major way on an exceedingly fundamental level and the rest of the craziness that follows is due to that. Whats nuts about it though is how many are well adjusted to this sickness and not only glorify it but revel in it.

 

This is quite easy to see with a bit of insight and this itself is a very rare commodity in this modern life where its all externally focused, me me me, Narcissus falling in love with his reflection styled society where people simply do not think why they do anything or what they hope to gain out of it. Almost like they are entirely unconscious and walking around on autopilot. 

 

What makes it particularly hellish however is how most people either don't see, don't comprehend or don't care about this and its implications because that then means the one who is aware is stuck on a rock with 8 billion asshats who never even question why its dark or why it smells so funky?

 

 

14 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I see you as a young guy.  Smart enough to disguise there depression and angst as 'Matrix is real' philosophy.  Which has been done for ages, though before sci fy it was Mara.  Maybe I post too much but part of that is to lead an examined life.  How to make it better, exploring ideas.  Figuring out what works.. leaving bread crumbs for myself. 

 

You dismiss my posts angrily without answering the question 'How do you think you get out of hell?'   Its an important question that you shouldn't ignore. 

 

As a kid, maybe between 5 to 7 there was a period where I considered I was the only one in existence and the powers that be were watching my moves.  Some variation of that is probably not too uncommon.  Maybe even more so with the generation after the Matrix.

 

As an adult how I've melded that into my life is one section of my blog.  Life as Dream section.  Which explored the Dream author Moss's theme of taking dreams more seriously, and life less seriously or rather see life from a dream perspective, ie looking at life more symbolically.  Seeking out synchronicities.  Getting a little more shamanic with life, looking for the messages the universe is giving you.  

 

Not the extreme of 'its all illusion' but looking closely and thinking how external things can be sending you messages.  Its a practice not only shamanic but probably religious people do more.. the looking for signs.  I'm not to active with that concept anymore but its a good practice.  Might create a good midpoint between Matrix thinking and reality. 

 

 

 

Look, I'll devote a bit more time to you but in general you come across like a tool. A preachy tool because your posts smack of condescension. Whether you intend this for effect or its just how I interpret, who knows? But in general you sound like a bit of [word removed by system] so I treat you like one. Fairs fair.

 

None of what you've said has had anything to do with my original premise so to me it seems you're flapping your gums just to make sure they're working because there isn't anything of any value coming out of them at all. Not one bit. Not even by accident. You evidently have a high opinion of yourself but I ask you: Is it based in reality? Has it ever been tested?

 

Maybe everyone else was too polite to tell you your breath stinks but rest assured I pull no punches so if I see your posts like this then there may well be something in there you can learn about yourself and the image you project online so please, leave this thread alone until you have something worthwhile and on topic to contribute as this is the last pixel of attention I shall be giving you for now.

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What is death?

 

P.S. Looks like no one bit at that one. 

 

P.S.S. I meant it as a real question, not a rhetorical one. Have you (reader) actually thought about what death means? :) 

Does it mean that the 'individual' ceases to exist? Or is it just the body that ceases to function?

A little investigation will lead us to realize that we can't say for sure if the one who animates the body ceases to exist when the body dies...

 

In the Bhavagad Gita 2:22, Lord Krishna says --

Quote

वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय
नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि |
तथा शरीराणि विहाय जीर्णा
न्यन्यानि संयाति नवानि देही || 22||

vāsānsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
navāni gṛihṇāti naro ’parāṇi
tathā śharīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇānya
nyāni sanyāti navāni dehī

 

 

 

I modified the translation a bit to be this --

Spoiler


As a person sheds worn-out garments and wears new ones, likewise, at the time of death, the inner-dweller casts off its worn-out body and enters a new one.

 

 

Edited by dwai

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14 minutes ago, thelerner said:

So.. your not self awareness enough to answer my question. 

Thought so.

 

I'm actually laughing in real life reading this. Its almost like you're a parody of a parody at this point. Lets hit the checklist:

 

  • Come across like a tool
  • A preachy tool
  • Posts smack of condescension
  • Fapping your gums

Present and correct! That'll be thelerner posting again. Ha!

 

*ignore list*

 

 

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@alchemystical From where I'm sitting you majorly misread thelerner's tone and intent. The attributes you are imputing to him are simply not present in what he wrote. Sometimes I overreact or misread people too. It happens to a lot of people. Don't double down on it though.

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Thanks for pointing that out, maybe I'll click him off the ignore list at some point and reread what he said but those were my initial reactions and each subsequent post of his gave me no reason to pause and reflect that there may be an error, if anything they solidified the impression so its whatever...

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A thought that I had today is the importance for us to assist evolution.  Evolution cannot evolve a species without their help

Metaphorically : Eagles did not get wings without the assistance of the eagles, first evolution gave them small things but they used them well, they participated with these small wings and made them part of their life ... and so evolution gave them bigger wings.

So it is with humanity and our "minds" we have been given a small thing, we are a monkey with some strange thing on our head it creates mayhem,  but we need to awaken this mind and participate and then we will be given a bigger one.  It is not inconsequential to help existence, we must try.

Evolution is trying to awaken mankind by giving it this "mind" .. but we must participate for the good of all.

It is very difficult for a monkey to really understand what is happening, he has an old animal system, there is an ego and automatic thoughts ... there are bad feelings negativity, there is the global economic system and horrible bosses ... wow it's quite a challenge to remain sane. 

Yet this is the job, it is difficult but we must try to make the best of it.

Edited by rideforever
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Evolution... Interesting word because all I see is devolution, en masse. Everywhere, in everything.

 

People are literally thick as shit and only half as useful and propagating profusely therefore compounding their ignorance as it multiplies which leads me to think the way that I think because it most certainly isn't heavenly when looked at from a global perspective as these antics lower the high water mark for all vessels floating in the seas of humanity.

 

The blind are truly leading the blind in virtually every aspect of reality as morons give themselves standing ovations for their stupidity, time and time again. Sure you can say that sounds harsh but it does accurately describe man and the way he's been moving for quite some time now.

 

Just look at how he acts toward himself, his fellow man, the planet and everything else. Its all a case of "How much of it can I fuck and how quickly? Gimmie gimmie gimmie!" running across the board for absolutely everything.

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm on the wrong planet or everyone else is running a software update that I didn't get because they're all well adjusted to the madness and not only seem to take it in their stride but thrive and for me its absolutely excruciating seeing all of this going on. Sure you could cry that maybe they can't all be wrong and maybe the fault is in me etc.. but remember it was only the child who could actually perceive the truth of the Emperor even though they all could see what was right in front of them...

 

As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of people in this world are nuts. Crazier still is how few realize it. Now tell me my friends, does that not sound like hell?

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 Some say that illumination/awareness is   a shock .   The world can be a  shocking place    -   at times I have found heaven here , usually through retreat    and isolation   -  from the madness  ,   this can be alone or in company of the 'like minded' .

 

I was always taken by Mephistopheles'  answer to  Faust ;

 

Faust  ( trick question ) ; " But Mephistopheles, if thou art forever bound to hell and cannot escape it , how didst thou come to be here on earth ? "

 

Mephistopheles  ;  " Why Faustus ,  this  is  hell, nor is there anyway out of it . "

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