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Starting the thread for sharing health-related ideas concerning the coronavirus epidemic which the WHO declared a global health emergency.  Not looking to discuss political, economic, etc. implications.  Please share what you know that pertains to prevention/antivirals/immune support.  Please no woo woo, invincible superpowers, dietary fundamentalism.  Please no pooh-poohing and no fearmongering.  

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My sister was just pushing some Sambucol gummies on me.  That might fall under woo-woo but it does contain black elderberry extract has some science behind it- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11399518     https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-434/elderberry 

I expect the Sambucol syrup or similar would be stronger. 

 

This might fall under fearmongering but .. stuff.. Because while I expect we'll got a handle on this, as we've done other viruses,  it'll probably get worse before it gets better.  

 

 

Edited by thelerner
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1 minute ago, thelerner said:

My sister was just pushing some Sambucol gummies on me.  That might fall under woo-woo but it does contain black elderberry extract that does have some science behind it- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11399518     https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-434/elderberry 

I expect the Sambucol syrup or similar would be stronger. 

 

 

 

Black elderberry is definitely not in the category of woo woo -- it is herbal medicine, and even though it's been researched, hyped and taken into the fold by "science behind it," it still retains its primal powers that have been known for centuries -- reportedly some European doctors, in the past, took their hats off when passing by an elderberry tree and bowed to it in respect and gratitude.  Sambucol gummies I don't know much about (effectiveness is dose dependent, so if the dose is adequate, should be OK, otherwise you might OD on sugar before you get the working amount of Sambucol), but extracts, syrups, and decoctions are definitely in.  I buy it as whole dried berries and make decoctions.  (The syrup, as well as an overdose of the decoction, may provoke slight nausea, which is an unpleasant side effect but not a dangerous one.)  It's especially efficient if one starts taking it early (within an hour of the first appearance of symptoms), as well as for prevention.  It's a broad-spectrum antiviral so hopefully useful for this novel thing too.

 

12 minutes ago, thelerner said:

 

This might fall under fearmongering but I sold some Financial Puts on the S&P and Dow Jones Indexes.  Didn't sell my stocks, but the Puts will help contain some financial fall out.  Because while I expect we'll got a handle on this, as we've done other viruses,  it'll probably get worse before it gets better.  

 

 

 

I was hoping someone might start another thread specifically on those subjects -- not opposed to seeing them discussed at all, just wanted to keep this one more focused on health stuff -- for ease of search should the need arise.  It will get way worse and it's not like other viruses, and whoever knows how to avoid going bare-ass broke as one of the possible side effects would be a welcome party to the conversation in a dedicated thread.  I know too little on that.  

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About a month ago I bought an amazing 800 page book on nutritional therapy, and have been reading and marveling ever since, astonished that this research has been done, that these things have been discovered, and distressed that, although they are incredibly simple and powerful, these methods are not being applied in modern medical treatments.  The book is The Orthomolecular Treatment of Chronic Disease: 65 Experts on Therapeutic and Preventative Nutrition, Edited by Andrew W. Saul, PhD.  

 

Orthomolecular just means "right molecules", aka nutrition.

One of the things addressed in the book is viruses. All viruses.

 

So, this link (a little too long to post here) addresses what Saul has garnered from all these experts' research, as a protocol for addressing coronavirus, should it come into your sphere.

 

http://orthomolecular.activehosted.com/index.php?action=social&chash=9fc3d7152ba9336a670e36d0ed79bc43.137&s=34da9d26ae00e7e1d483d5fd34db28d3

 

 

 

 

 

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We have elderberry extract in the house which will be taken at the onset of symptoms. 

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A recepi created by the famous herbalist Dr. Christopher

 

Edited by oak
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According to the info in the book I referred to above, viruses ARE treatable, but not by methods generally used by modern medicine.  Vitamin C and some other nutrients treat all of the symptoms you mention. We're not talking about a little vitamin C though. It's an enormous amount. Humans and guinea pigs are the only mammals that don't make their own vitamin C "on demand".  When animals get sick, their bodies produce many times the normal amount of vitamin C. When we get sick, we need take many times the normal amount of vitamin C we need/use when we're healthy. This is research based. We just aren't familiar with the research. The book is a real eye-opener.  But you don't need to buy the book, as most of the information is covered in the links provided at the bottom of the link I gave.

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22 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

Are viruses even treatable by any medicine?

 

It seems only strengthening immune system and not over strengthening it (hundred millions of strong immune systems died from spanish flu, due to the strong immune system)

And easing systems, such as temperature,  cough, sneezing and e.t.c.

 

A "strong" immune system is a term that is sometimes erroneously applied (even by doctors) to an immune system that is jumpy, prone to overreactions, and unable to fine-tune its responses.  Rolling out the big cannons to shoot sparrows, so to speak.  The main problem with those disproportionate immune responses is the co-called "cytokine storm" which throws the work of all organs and systems off kilter.  

 

There's two types of approaches to treating (rather than just alleviating the symptoms of) a viral disease -- something that kills the virus, and something that modulates the immune response  Makes it more precise, either less indiscriminately violent or more active where it's slacking.  Or, ideally, something that does both simultaneously.  And of course there's antiviral agents and strategies that do work, just not for all diseases, not for all people, and not at all times.   

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The American Society of Microbiology has some indepth articles and updated page on the virus-

https://asm.org/Press-Releases/2020/nCoV2019-Resources?_ga=2.29645436.291508641.1580569674-585297551.1580569674

 

 

" ..What is the appropriate level of caution we should use?
“This is a hard question to address. We are seeing more cases at an earlier time in the epidemic than was true with SARS and MERS. More casual persons are being affected, as opposed to health care workers or those in close contact with infected patients. One has to be cautious and aware of their surroundings: wash your hands and stay home if you feel ill.”

Edited by thelerner
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19 hours ago, Taomeow said:

t will get way worse

 

I tend to agree, we're just seeing the head of the snake (or maybe dragon) so far. 

 

And I agree with the immune stuff others are sharing.  I keep echinacea and colloidal silver around depending on what's going on.

 

A friend in china said he heard they were trying HIV meds for weak immune systems.

 

I've seen some TCM talk seems to be focusing also on lung issues.

 

I've seen numbers being tossed around or comparisons to past outbreaks but the one I was initially interested in was the age and health condition of those that died.   Sure, looking at all infected people would help too as it may share why they are not dying. 

 

For those interested in the first 17 deaths, there is a chart at the bottom of this article:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/jmv.25689

 

 

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3 hours ago, thelerner said:

The American Society of Microbiology has some indepth articles and updated page on the virus-

https://asm.org/Press-Releases/2020/nCoV2019-Resources?_ga=2.29645436.291508641.1580569674-585297551.1580569674

 

 

" ..What is the appropriate level of caution we should use?
“This is a hard question to address. We are seeing more cases at an earlier time in the epidemic than was true with SARS and MERS. More casual persons are being affected, as opposed to health care workers or those in close contact with infected patients. One has to be cautious and aware of their surroundings: wash your hands and stay home if you feel ill.”

 

Pertaining to the bold... that may be a simple observation but not one that is really comparable... health care workers are dressed for Hazmat; the casual person has little more than a mask. 

 

There was reporting that one patient in Wuhan infected 14 staff.   I'm not sure if that was early on before they really knew what they were dealing and not dressed in full gear.   

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3047441/wuhan-medical-staff-being-infected-virus-much-faster-pace

 

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2 hours ago, GSmaster said:

It is quite clear that this virus comes from wildlife eating habits of the chinese, that are quite disgusting.

Bushmeat is considered one of the possible vectors through which HIV transferred to humans.

Quote

Most AIDS researchers believe that the "bushmeat trade" allowed the HIV-1 virus, and separately HIV-2, to enter the human bloodstream several times. Hunters who kill and butcher chimps and monkeys are regularly exposed to animal blood teeming with SIVs. If the hunters have cuts, bites, or scratches -- and given the nature of their work they almost always do -- they can catch the viruses from their prey. Hunters going after chimps in Cameroon could have caught the first strains of HIV-1. Sooty mangabeys, hunted and kept as pets in West Africa, could have transmitted HIV-2 to humans.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/aids/virus/origins.html

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39 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Pertaining to the bold... that may be a simple observation but not one that is really comparable... health care workers are dressed for Hazmat; the casual person has little more than a mask. 

 

There was reporting that one patient in Wuhan infected 14 staff.   I'm not sure if that was early on before they really knew what they were dealing and not dressed in full gear.   

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3047441/wuhan-medical-staff-being-infected-virus-much-faster-pace

 

Personally i am waiting on the verdict on the circumstances of transmission. If what they say is true, i.e. an asymptomatic vector can transfer the virus within 2m. then this could get serious very fast.

The fatality rate isn't serious (it's ~2% Ebola and Marburgh have over 25% IIRC ) but the infection rate must be amazingly high which complicates problems and increases the chances it has to produce a really deadly strain.

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Think I'll make some garlic honey.  Pretty simple, small jar, lightly crush garlic, leaving it whole, put in small jar, add preferably unpasteurized honey.  Some recipes have you put in chopped ginger.  Maybe make two jars, one w/ garlic, one chopped ginger. 

 

Ginger and honey sounds delicious, the garlic & honey more medicinal.  

 

<back from Whole Foods.  Surprisingly cheap. 16 oz of organic raw honey $6.59.  43 peeled organic garlic cloves $2.99, gotta figure out what to do with the honey I displace> 

 

<<kinda screwed up, didn't give the cloves a light squash and 10 minute wait before putting them in jar.  damn, the recipe had one step>> 

Edited by thelerner
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This Doctor's vids are the best I've seen for sensible assessment:

 

 

 

 posted this question - I don't know if he'll answer it:

 

"if the virus is infectious in both the pre and post symptomatic phases then shouldn't they do random blood tests in the general population to see how far it has spread into the general population??? To see both who is likely to be at risk (which population groups) and how many people already have naturally developed immunity???? Also it is possible that P1 returned to work 'feeling better' was a workaholic and was not actually well - thus he infected P2 -4 ?????"

Edited by Apech
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I am talking to an acupuncturist/herbalist friend who keeps me posted on the professional assessments and recommendations both in the US (she's a member of the Asian American Acupuncture Association which has posted some guidelines in Chinese chiefly for the Chinese Americans if I understood it correctly) and among their colleagues in China.  Here's what I got in terms of TCM assessment of this illness:

 

Dr. Liu Qingquan (刘清泉),  director of Beijing TCM hospital and Dr. Tong Xiaolin (仝小林), vice director of Guang An Men hospital, were among the first doctors entering SARS infected area and both treated hundreds of SARS patients in 2003. 

Dr. Tong Xiaolin helped formulate the TCM treatment protocols which were used nationally and tremendously helped China to win the battle with SARS. 

 

16 years later, they arrived in Wuhan, the frontline of fighting the novel coronavirus. They saw patients from both the inpatient departments and ICU.  After carefully checking the patients, they and the expert panel came to the conclusion that the novel coronavirus causing pneumonia fell into the TCM categories of   “疫病” Yi Bing (Plague) and more specifically

“湿瘟” Shi Wen (Damp Plague). 

  

This designation changed the herbal formulas that were initially considered.  It is my understanding (I'm still processing some information) that a Damp disorder is not going to respond well to the formulas that increase Cold and/or don't address Dampness.  I'll try to find out what they are proposing, and also do some figuring-out of my own.   

Edited by Taomeow
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Shared by a European taoist who's been living in China for many years, currently living in Shanghai, one of the quarantined cities. 

 

"This is helpful info re coronavirus from a dr...

1. It is pretty large in size (cell is about 400-500nm diameter), so any normal mask (not just the N95 feature) should be able to filter it out. However, when someone who's infected sneezes in front of you, it will take a great 3 meters (about 10 feet) before it drops to the ground and is no longer airborne.

 

2. When the virus drops on metal surface, it will live for at least 12 hours. So remember if you come in contact with any metal surface, wash your hands with soap thoroughly.

 

3. The virus can remain active on fabric for 6-12 hours. Normal laundry detergent should kill the virus. For winter clothing that does not require daily washing, you can put it out under the sun to kill the virus.

 

About prevention:

1. The most common way of getting infected is by touching things in public, so you must wash your hands frequently. The virus can only live on your hands for 5-10 mins, but a lot can happen in those 5-10 mins (you can rub your eyes or pick your nose unwittingly).

 

2. Aside from washing your hands frequently, you can gargle with strong mouthwash to eliminate or minimize the germs while they are still in your throat (before dripping down to your lungs)."

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5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

4. Wrap around glasses

 

I meant to mention this idea as I was surprised to never really hear it being recommended... I guess The Brits have some good ideas :)

 

The eyes absorb like crazy so seemed odd to me after so many flu outbreaks that they have never mentioned the precaution.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

About prevention:

1. The most common way of getting infected is by touching things in public, so you must wash your hands frequently. The virus can only live on your hands for 5-10 mins, but a lot can happen in those 5-10 mins (you can rub your eyes or pick your nose unwittingly).

 

2. Aside from washing your hands frequently, you can gargle with strong mouthwash to eliminate or minimize the germs while they are still in your throat (before dripping down to your lungs)."

 

"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

 

Now with feces found with the virus (confirmed in a case in Washington, US) , the doctors are not surprised but it raises  'prevention' to a very high level alert. 

 

My wife, who is trying to get back to the US has had 3 flights cancelled after they (United) keeps changing it. They keep consolidating and pushing travelers to earlier dates... like a 'get the hell out of Dodge" order came down... it is clear their re-booking system is going nuts; they setup layovers of an hour in an arriving country when one will get medically screened, determined if can pass, go through customs, etc.   The systems are brainless.   I've spent more time talking with United in the last few days than the last few years.   Flight changed from 4th... to 5th.. changed again to another 5th... changed back to 4th... changed to 3rd...   Flights to Beijing are now incredibly scarce... so she got a wake up call that she needs to get a flight out of their tonight and stay at the airport overnight for her flight !  LOL

 

My wife made an interesting point:  Folks have to keep changing their masks, clothes, gloves, etc. 

 

I saw that Wuhan was asking the EU for masks... 

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Meanwhile villages bordering Wuhan are taking their own preventive measures.  

 

image.png.72dbf5888c9c03a51a74807e2eb6724c.png

 

(An aside.  The guandao is used in nearly all traditional styles of Chinese MA.  It is heavy and seems to have a mind of its own because of its great momentum -- many of the moves are spinning cuts and slashes, and you can't slow down or it's like trying to stop a spinning propeller.  Well, a while ago a master from China visited our school and among other things did a demo of a badass guandao form.  The event took place at some karate premises teacher rented at the time, so what that visiting master grabbed wasn't one of our guandao, it was just displayed there for decoration, but the master didn't know that and neither did anyone else.  So, he grabbed that thing and started twirling it like crazy, and the blade promptly flew off the pole and nearly took off someone's head -- in fact several, since it made almost a full circle before landing.  The master just shrugged and said something to the effect of, "made in China.")    

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On 2/1/2020 at 2:33 PM, Apech said:

This Doctor's vids are the best I've seen for sensible assessment:

 

 

 

The 'Asymptomatic' angle is getting some scrutiny as they have been relying on second hand comments to say if another person seemed symptomatic or not.   So in this particularly case of the lady who visited Germany,  they have talked directly to her and she WAS symptomatic but taking anti-fever medicine.   That would likely push back the date it was assumed she contracted the virus.     

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I'm going to disclaim the totality of the thread.  All of it (with the exception of a couple of nonsensical suggestions) works to alleviate the flu. 

 

This ain't no flu.

The remedy for this one is, don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Whether "the wrong place" means "planet Earth" and whether "the wrong time" means "now" remains to be seen.     

 

Stay safe everyone.   

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