Continuation

[MegaMind]

19 hours ago, sean said:

 

To be fair, the FAQ isn't here, it's only a link in someone's signature. Otherwise, beneath the distracting sense that you're yelling this entire post, LOL, I think are some legit criticisms of the FAQ, even just from a basic marketing perspective.

 

Would love for it to start by answering basic questions, like What is Mo Pai? Who started it? Who holds the lineage now? Are there multiple schools? How does Mo Pai compare to other living neigong traditions?

 

Instead we're thrown into the deep end about anus wires and an unintroduced character named Jim's cancer. 😳

 

Hopefully constructive criticism.

 

Sean

 

 

Marketing is the wrong way to think about it.

 

This is definitely not an environment where we could do "marketing."

 

We also aren't selling anything.

 

We are just here to do damage control. 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by MildMouse23

[sean]

Just now, MildMouse23 said:

Marketing is a the wrong way to think about it.

 

This is definitely not an environment where we could "market" to.

 

We are just here to do damage control.

 

I meant marketing more in the sense of "communicating effectively with intent" which your initial attempt at a FAQ did so poorly it may be indicative of a deeper failure to articulate your own praxis at all, obviously here on this forum, but perhaps even internally within your group. I get there's challenging hostility here that you feel it's important to push back on, but maybe investing in clear, direct communication for this FAQ is an opportunity for you as well.

 

Sean

 

[MegaMind]

20 hours ago, Zork said:

Their definition of Neigong is nonstandard and tottaly incorrect.

There are many qigong systems that use yin qi.

That doesn't make them neigong!

MoPai by Chang past level 4 is neigong.

Pre Level 4 it is qigong.

If crap like that makes it to their terrible FAQ* it has no place here.

 

*Seriously people, which FAQ in the entire history of FAQs starts with information on where to find the instructors?

No info on what mopai is? No mention of MoZi?

And instead we get random info on ad hominem attacks aimed at Jim that no one mentioned in years!

 

 

According to Chinese thought, there are basically two types of
training involving our vital energies: ch’ikung and neikung.

...

ch’ikung centers on the development and control of yang ch’i (also
called lii ch’i or “fire” ch’i), while neikung involves the joint employ-
ment of yang ch’i and yin ch’i (called “water” ch’i or kann ch’i)

 

The Magus Of Java Page 22

 

 

 

 

 

 

I use my yin and yang together as one;
that is why I can do what I do. By itself, yang ch’i cannot pass the
limits of the body.”

 

“Neikung,” I had said.

 

The Magus Of Java Page 13

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then John’s student came back; he had
managed to find a straight razor at a local cutlery shop. John gave
the ch’ikung master the razor and asked him to cut him anywhere he
liked. Try as he might, the man could not hurt John, even though in
the end he put all his power and emotion into it.”

 

“What happened then?” I asked.

“Nothing. The man had lost the contest.”

“Did he become John’s student?”

“No. He was too proud.”

“Do you know why the man lost?” John asked suddenly from
behind us. He had crept up silently and was listening in.

“Because he had only yang ch’i?” I replied.

 

“That’s correct. He was a dedicated practitioner, but he didn’t
have all the proper information. What he did was ch’ikung, but not
neikung. A man can train all his life and not get anywhere unless he
is correct in his training.

 

The Magus Of Java Page 96

[MegaMind]

18 minutes ago, sean said:

 

I meant marketing more in the sense of "communicating effectively with intent" which your initial attempt at a FAQ did so poorly it may be indicative of a deeper failure to articulate your own praxis at all, obviously here on this forum, but perhaps even internally within your group. I get there's challenging hostility here that you feel it's important to push back on, but maybe investing in clear, direct communication for this FAQ is an opportunity for you as well.

 

Sean

 

 

I am going to re-write the FAQ soon, with the new questions posted being the at the top.

[MegaMind]

24 minutes ago, sean said:

 

I meant marketing more in the sense of "communicating effectively with intent" which your initial attempt at a FAQ did so poorly it may be indicative of a deeper failure to articulate your own praxis at all, obviously here on this forum, but perhaps even internally within your group. I get there's challenging hostility here that you feel it's important to push back on, but maybe investing in clear, direct communication for this FAQ is an opportunity for you as well.

 

Sean

 

 

 

In the new thread you had the question: "What schools currently practice?" 

 

Could you elaborate what you mean there?

 

Also

 

"How does Mo Pai compare with other traditions and practices?"

 

Compare in what regard? 

 

Can you delve a little deeper into this.

 

Thanks.

[liminal_luke]

There has been a lot of negativity about Mo Pai on the forum over the years, and it`s understandable that members of MildMouse`s group might feel a need to defend their practice.  Still, coming to the discussion with the sole intention to do "damage control" creates a dynamic that (unwittingly?) exacerbates the problem rather than helps.

 

Some questions I am curious about...

 

Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of the practice itself? 

 

What is the end goal of the practice?

 

What experiences have group members had and how has the practice impacted their lives for the better? 

[Zork]

1 hour ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

According to Chinese thought, there are basically two types of
training involving our vital energies: ch’ikung and neikung.

...

ch’ikung centers on the development and control of yang ch’i (also
called lii ch’i or “fire” ch’i), while neikung involves the joint employ-
ment of yang ch’i and yin ch’i (called “water” ch’i or kann ch’i)

 

The Magus Of Java Page 22

 

 

 

 

 

 

I use my yin and yang together as one;
that is why I can do what I do. By itself, yang ch’i cannot pass the
limits of the body.”

 

“Neikung,” I had said.

 

The Magus Of Java Page 13

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then John’s student came back; he had
managed to find a straight razor at a local cutlery shop. John gave
the ch’ikung master the razor and asked him to cut him anywhere he
liked. Try as he might, the man could not hurt John, even though in
the end he put all his power and emotion into it.”

 

“What happened then?” I asked.

“Nothing. The man had lost the contest.”

“Did he become John’s student?”

“No. He was too proud.”

“Do you know why the man lost?” John asked suddenly from
behind us. He had crept up silently and was listening in.

“Because he had only yang ch’i?” I replied.

 

“That’s correct. He was a dedicated practitioner, but he didn’t
have all the proper information. What he did was ch’ikung, but not
neikung. A man can train all his life and not get anywhere unless he
is correct in his training.

 

The Magus Of Java Page 96

This only proves that Chang uses neikung which i already mentioned. You supply zero proof that your group uses neigong within the 3 levels you have.

As i said before there are qigong systems that use both yin and yang chi.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zork

[sean]

5 minutes ago, Zork said:

This only proves that Chang uses neikung. You supply zero proof that your group uses neigong.

 

This keeps coming up. Can you describe the criteria for which their group could sufficiently prove to you that they "use neigong"?

 

Sean

 

[Zork]

Just now, sean said:

 

This keeps coming up. Can you describe the criteria for which their group could sufficiently prove to you that they "use neigong"?

 

Sean

 

I have already asked that question repeatedly Sean. The question was : which of the 3 levels available to your group transmutes the 3 treasures?

Quote

What is said to be occurring as the result of continual practice is a type of internal alchemy, that is a refinement and transmutation of the "Three Treasures" or San Bao (三寳), in Chinese. The Three Treasures are known as Jing (精), Qi (氣) and Shen (神) and can be loosely translated as Essence, Vitality and Spirit.

From    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong

[Zork]

Btw on page 22 the text that mildmouse has ommited says that the distinction between qigong and neigong isn't clear and they like yin and yang are inseparable.

What i don't get is what is the problem with them practicing qigong?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zork

[sean]

14 minutes ago, Zork said:

I have already asked that question repeatedly Sean. The question was : which of the 3 levels available to your group transmutes the 3 treasures?

From    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong

 

No, I was asking you what your criteria is for this "proof" keep asking for.

 

Like, can you give me an example of what MildMouse23 could say that would cause you to respond "Oh, shit. OK. Looks like you're right. That is neigong you're practicing and not qigong. You proved it, conclusively. Thanks."

 

Or is that just not even a possible scenario based on your current convictions?

 

Sean

 

[Zork]

26 minutes ago, sean said:

Like, can you give me an example of what MildMouse23 could say that would cause you to respond "Oh, shit. OK. Looks like you're right. That is neigong you're practicing and not qigong. You proved it, conclusively. Thanks."

 

?????

I already told you Sean!

I asked a question that betrays whether there is neigong involved in their system or not. The question is "which of the 3 levels available to your group transmutes the 3 treasures?".

If none does, they don't do neigong period!

If one of them does all they have to do is point at the exercise. Then i will examine it and will be convinced.

 

As i said i already asked the question and they never answered because if you look at the hints there is no neigong involved at the levels they have available.

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zork

[sean]

15 minutes ago, Zork said:

?????

I already told you Sean!

I asked a question that betrays whether there is neigong involved in their system or not. The question is "which of the 3 levels available to your group transmutes the 3 treasures?".

If none does, they don't do neigong period!

If one of them does all they have to do is point at the exercise.

 

As i said i already asked the question and they never answered because if you look at the hints there is no neigong involved at the levels they have available.

 

OK, I think we have exceptionally different conceptions of proof so I'm trying to get clear on what your full criteria is.

 

So, at a high level, "proof" for you would be a description of practices that "transmute the three treasures".

 

Let's say they described such a practice and made this exact claim. Specifically what components would have to be present in their practice for you to agree that, OK, yes, this practice does in fact "transmute the three treasures".

 

Sean

 

[Zork]

1 minute ago, sean said:

 

OK, I think we have exceptionally different notions of proof so I'm trying to get clear on what your full criteria is.

 

So, at a high level, "proof" for you would be a description of practices that "transmute the three treasures".

 

Let's say they described such a practice and made this exact claim. Specifically what components would have to be present in their practice for you to agree that, OK, yes, this practice does in fact "transmute the three treasures".

 

Sean

 

I don't want anyone to go into details. The exercises have been leaked in the past so a general description will suffice. I don't want to practice the mopai system if that is what they fear.

 

All i asked is for them to name the exercise that is neigong in nature so as to dispel doubts.

By not answering all they do is to frustrate and disrespect me for no reason at all.

[sean]

4 minutes ago, Zork said:

I don't want anyone to go into details. The exercises have been leaked in the past so a general description will suffice. I don't want to practice the mopai system if that is what they fear.

 

All i asked is for them to name the exercise that is neigong in nature so as to dispel doubts.

By not answering all they do is to frustrate and disrespect me for no reason at all.

 

Gotcha, OK, so simply naming this neigong exercise in their practice would be enough for you to feel heard, respected and concede that their practice is indeed neigong?

 

Sean

 

[MegaMind]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

I don't want anyone to go into details. The exercises have been leaked in the past so a general description will suffice. I don't want to practice the mopai system if that is what they fear.

 

All i asked is for them to name the exercise that is neigong in nature so as to dispel doubts.

By not answering all they do is to frustrate and disrespect me for no reason at all.

 

To the best of my knowledge only heavily edited and altered things have been released,  I have never seen the actual teachings in the wild.

 

All the most important details always seem to be edited out for some strange reason, and new and "better" things added in their place.

Edited September 25, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Zork]

38 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

To the best of my knowledge only heavily edited and altered things have been released,  I have never seen the actual teachings in the wild.

 

All the most important details always seem to be edited out for some strange reason, and new and "better things added in their place.

You do realise that by telling me this you only make your position worse do you?

I can find them if i wish so but as i already mentioned i don't want to practice a dead end system. Plus i only need a general description to understand if you are making things up or telling the truth.

59 minutes ago, sean said:

Gotcha, OK, so simply naming this neigong exercise in their practice would be enough for you to feel heard, respected and concede that their practice is indeed neigong?

I can point you to posts in the thread that i did just that.

All i got was irrelevant answers like the above or non-answers/deflections.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zork

[Starjumper]

There's no need to challenge the easily faked video of John lighting paper on fire.  I can vouch that it is possible to make things really hot, and you can take my word for it.  My teacher could make things very hot, and I can make people exclaim in pain from the heat if I shine a hand on them for a few seconds.  If I wanted to join the circus I could put on demos like this guy, but I will never join that circus.  The thing is that immature people can never know why the most advanced masters do not demonstrate the real advanced techniques in public.  Making things hot or warm is not an advanced technique.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Starjumper

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

You do realise that by telling me this you only make your position worse do you?

I can find them if i wish so but as i already mentioned i don't want to practice a dead end system. Plus i only need a general description to understand if you are making things up or telling the truth.

I can point you to posts in the thread that i did just that.

All i got was irrelevant answers like the above or non-answers/deflections.

 

I see defections all through it .  

 

Another trick is this ;

 

Three or  four  questions asked  .... response ?   One question answered after quoting the four .

 

This type of communication has taken over (not just here either , its infiltrating just about everywhere in modern western society ) so much that most dont seem to notice it ... or perhaps they dont care  ? 

 

 

-  Some people  have not liked the way I break up a post and answer or respond to each part .  Others will answer a post that has multiple questions in it with a comment .  Same with emails  ... and texts .   Its getting damn hard to do business .

 

Some people find my proclivity in this annoying  ( and that is for a particular reason  )  ....    but I smashed it in court !

 

 (Because a judge is well aware of these type of communicative trucks and tactics.  )

Edited September 25, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

27 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There's no need to challenge the easily faked video of John lighting paper on fire.  I can vouch that it is possible to make things really hot, and you can take my word for it.  My teacher could make things very hot, and I can make people exclaim in pain from the heat if I shine a hand on them for a few seconds.  If I wanted to join the circus I could put on demos like this guy, but I will never join that circus.  The thing is that immature people can never know why the most advanced masters do not demonstrate the real advanced techniques in public.  Making things hot or warm is not an advanced technique.

 

 

 

Yep . I made one of ' those things '  so  hot yesterday .....

 

 

 

 

I was able to smoke it

 

 

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

You do realise that by telling me this you only make your position worse do you?

I can find them if i wish so but as i already mentioned i don't want to practice a dead end system. Plus i only need a general description to understand if you are making things up or telling the truth.

I can point you to posts in the thread that i did just that.

All i got was irrelevant answers like the above or non-answers/deflections.

 

You go do that then Zork,  best wishes to you.

[MegaMind]

36 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There's no need to challenge the easily faked video of John lighting paper on fire.  I can vouch that it is possible to make things really hot, and you can take my word for it.  My teacher could make things very hot, and I can make people exclaim in pain from the heat if I shine a hand on them for a few seconds.  If I wanted to join the circus I could put on demos like this guy, but I will never join that circus.  The thing is that immature people can never know why the most advanced masters do not demonstrate the real advanced techniques in public.  Making things hot or warm is not an advanced technique.

 

 

 

 

We do not Consider Zhou Ting Jue to have provided good evidence.

 

I would be interested to see a demo of him where he was checked for devices with a metal detector, stripped to a shirt and underwear, taken to a random location and such a demo re-enacted with materials provided by scientists and medical doctors.

 

One individual managed to recover some of the materials he used and claims that potassium hydroxide was used to react with the aluminum foil.

Edited September 25, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Nungali]

 

 

... and THAT  comment  / observation  ^   coming from a  John Chang / Mopie   supporter !

 

Our guy does it ....   'proof of magic  !  '

 

Another guy does it  ....   ' we  know how he faked it  !   '

 

 

Seriously .... aren't  you even embarrassed by this ?

 

 

 

 

 

[MegaMind]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

... and THAT  comment  / observation  ^   coming from a  John Chang / Mopie   supporter !

 

Our guy does it ....   'proof of magic  !  '

 

Another guy does it  ....   ' we  know how he faked it  !   '

 

 

Seriously .... aren't  you even embarrassed by this ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

We want to see scientists and medical doctors present, in a controlled location with best efforts made to rule out fraud on video.

 

None of that happened here.

 

The only other art we are aware of that meets that criteria is Tummo.

Edited September 25, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Nungali]

The whole thing is a pile of crap anyway . 

 

Why would a 'master' need to use paper  soaked in water (and ?  ..... but ... but , it was from a tea pot ... it MUST have been pure water ! )  and aluminium foil to generate heat into someone's back .... when he could have just used his hands ?

 

people used to tell me that when Mr Nishihira  would   demonstrate  a technique ('show you how it feels') on you, that had struck a weak point or nerve complex , he would then rub his palms together  and hold one over the area, it would get hot and then the pain would go away .  I have also felt it from a very competent masseur  ( actually, it was a friend GF, on being introduced  she touched my shoulder ,  and immediately commented I must have had an injury there ... it was like her hand was magnetically attracted to it . She laid me down there and then and did a treatment on it  ... VERY hot hands .   I have felt this more than once .   I am sure others have .

 

The rest is all stage magic ... set ups, big crowds  and usually money involved somehow .

 

Cant people tell by what these tricksters  are doing  ?  Is it all so unobvious to so many ? 

 

I suppose its becasue some people WANT to believe .... that is an incredibly powerful tool for the entrance of ignorance .