Balancing physical conditioning with internal cultivation

[Starjumper]

Tsk, tsk, so many amateurs.   There's a right way and a wrong way to combine power cultivation with strength training, so it depends which part of the elephant you, who can only see one side of things, are looking at.  Strength training, done the right way, allows levels of chi power that a wimpy person could never even dream about.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

25 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Tsk, tsk, so many amateurs.   There's a right way and a wrong way to combine power cultivation with strength training, so it depends which part of the elephant you, who can only see one side of things, are looking at.  Strength training, done the right way, allows levels of chi power that a wimpy person could never even dream about.

 

Yes and traditionally old practitioners were already physically active in nature from carrying water and chopping wood, so they already had base fitness from just living instead of being at a keyboard all the time.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Yes and traditionally old practitioners were already physically active in nature from carrying water and chopping wood, so they already had base fitness from just living instead of being at a keyboard all the time.

 

 Yes, your earlier post was the only one that showed awareness of the situation (+ Liminal Luke).  My earlier post in this thread, which explained it, was apparently invisible to the egos here.

 

Additionally, there is a type of strength training that greatly benefits fajin (explosive striking power) development but it is nearly unheard of in the western world.  Without that type of strength training true fajin is not really possible.  I couldn't possibly share that valuable secret here, what with the lurking scumbags that will take something like that, bastardize it, water it down, and then use it to put on weekend seminars.  The rest would just crap on it.  So, let them continue with their pathetic dreams.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Starjumper

[Michael Sternbach]

There is an older topic that some may find to contain some valuable information:

 

 

[escott]

Weight training or should I call it resistance training does not require heavy weight to be effective. You don't have to train like Dave Hoff at Westside Barbell. Although, we may be more than meets the eye and all is energy the fact remains that we find ourselves in these physical bodies. If this body gets weak it gets sick. If it gets overweight it gets sick. Eventually it will die, hopefully later rather than sooner. So many of us are sedentary now and we have to do exercise instead of chop wood and carry water. Sandbag training is a great way to do it. You won't put a hole in your floor if you drop it and you can do it all year round of you live where it gets cold.

 

https://greatist.com/fitness/compound-exercises-sandbag-moves-for-strength

 

If you prefer a more eastern method maybe try a taiji ball.

 

https://ymaa.com/articles/introduction-and-short-history-of-tai-chi-ball-qigong

 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Additionally, there is a type of strength training that greatly benefits fajin (explosive striking power) development but it is nearly unheard of in the western world.

 

By the way, this type of strength training is an essential part of real nei kung, and it does a lot for chi power developement, it is a high power method which is unknown to the liars selling what they call nei kung in videos and weekend seminars (fake nei kung).  These high power methods are also generally unknown in chi kung, which is the same as but generally much better than fake nei  kung.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Starjumper

[Michael Sternbach]

Personally, I have not found  weight training to be detrimental to the power of martial arts techniques (quite the opposite, in fact), however, I recommend supplementing heavy lifting with exercises that use lighter resistance and faster movements. For instance, working out with fairly heavy weights (especially barbells and dumbbells) and low rep numbers - probably still the best way to increase basic strength - in alternation with exercises that are oriented more towards speed, typically employing body weight, kettlebells, resistance bands, medicine balls etc. 

 

I consider my own martial art "informed" by the internal arts, however, it is eclectic in every way. Honestly, I am not sure how useful the distinction into internal and external power really is; the best martial artist have both available to them, IMO. 

 

Of course, in Daoist circles we often hear about the intrinsic superiority of the internal approach, relying on chi as opposed to muscular force - which may sound plausible in theory, but fact is that IMA practitioners in general don't stand much of a chance against well-trained athletic fighters from more physically oriented systems. 

 

For losing weight, there is nothing better than Tabata training (or possibly a related form of HIIT) combined with diet, IME. As for the latter, it is not always necessary to drastically change your eating habits; try cutting down on some of the foods most rich in calories that you are habitually enjoying for a period of several months. 

 

My Tabata training has been described in my PPD here:

 

If you have any questions regarding what I outlined, you are welcome to ask me in my thread.

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Honestly, I am not sure how useful the distinction into internal and external power really is; the best martial artist have both available to them, IMO.

 

Depends what you mean by ‘best martial artists’.

 

You're never going to have skilled taiji players get in a cage (they’re too old - they just had to take at least 20 years to get actual internal skill - and at least 10 more to get it to a standard where it can be used under extreme pressure - so they’re probably at least in their late 40’s)

 

If you mean which is best in caged combat - then it’s absolutely no contest - the external types will always win... Soldiers in China were not taught internal arts - they were taught how to kill as efficiently as possible (aka just use a spear)

 

But when the same fighters are in their 80’s - it’s also a forgone conclusion - but in the opposite direction.

 

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Of course, in Daoist circles we often hear about the intrinsic superiority of the internal approach, relying on chi as opposed to muscular force

 

If your aim is just to win street fights then go for something like Krav Maga - if you want to win in sporting contexts then go for bjj. If you want to develop yourself physically, mentally and energetically whilst refining your character through applied skill then learn Taiji.

 

There’s no better or worse. Who’d win in a fight becomes a bit of a childish comparison when dealing with deep personal development.

 

And it’s true that some physical martial arts is a good basis for internal martial arts. But you will not find anyone who’s able to use true ‘internal’ skill who still lifts weights or practices external martial arts. No one combines internal and external. If they think they do, then they just have an adapted external style.

 

I think the main issue is that very few people have actually met and experienced someone with deep internal skill. Once you do, the difference between internal and external becomes very obvious. 

[freeform]

22 hours ago, MuadDib said:

The Shaolin monk types look very muscular and they seem to do a lot of resistance training

 

The Shaolin monks we tend to see performing (or selling online courses) are basically highly trained and extremely skilled acrobats - they do not have internal skill.

 

Shaolin-based Qigong masters (with real skill) are rarer - but do exist. 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Wuschel said:

 

is this the same as the sinking of qi you talk about?

 

In Qigong you generally sink to your Dantien. In Taiji you sink to your feet and then you ‘fill’ the body from feet up.

 

But yes it’s a similar process. 

 

The problems in taiji practitioners is often because they don’t have the other key circulations functioning as well as Qigong practitioners. So you rarely see spleen issues in skilled Qigong practitioners, but you do see it in skilled taiji practitioners (ones that practice extensively - eg 3 to 4hrs a day).

[dwai]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

In Qigong you generally sink to your Dantien. In Taiji you sink to your feet and then you ‘fill’ the body from feet up.

 

But yes it’s a similar process. 

 

The problems in taiji practitioners is often because they don’t have the other key circulations functioning as well as Qigong practitioners. So you rarely see spleen issues in skilled Qigong practitioners, but you do see it in skilled taiji practitioners (ones that practice extensively - eg 3 to 4hrs a day).

My theory is that “good” taiji people become so efficient in terms of proprioception and biomechanics that they exert far less energy to do work than “normal” people do.

 

But the quantity of food we intake does not easily change. So more calories in, less calories burnt. 

 

Ive done drastic changes to my diet, such as eating only half of what I’d normally eat, and dropped 45-50 lbs in a span of 3-4 months. But old dietary habits are very hard to change. Especially for all us “rice eaters” - it’s as addictive as nicotine imho. 

 

But its it’s just a theory  

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by dwai

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

My theory is that “good” taiji people become so efficient

 

I think you’re right.

 

With high level alchemy teachers that efficiency is further increased. I know masters that eat once a week or so. But that’s beyond most of us normal folk 😄

[KuroShiro]

On 8/27/2019 at 9:14 PM, dwai said:

Apologies for a long winded post. 

 

I waned to enquire whether any of you have thoughts on combining strength training with internal arts? 

 

Let me explain what I mean by that. The style of taijiquan I practice emphasizes letting go of muscular strength (li) and rather use jin - I know different people/schools have different ideas about what jin is. 

 

In our system it is considered to be the power generated by accelerating Qi into the bone marrow and the lower Dantien. 

 

So we store power by condensing Qi into the born marrow - my Sifu says it is like burning gas to generate horse power. Eventually it is generated by directing incoming force into the  LDT, which results in power/force rippling out like how a stone is dropped into a pool generates ripples. This ripple effect is capable of returning incoming force, and therefore ends up looking mysterious and woo woo.

 

My experience is, that it took me a long time to get it to a point where it works, to drop my tendency to use physical strength (almost 20 yrs of daily practice now). There is a sense of freedom and relaxation, along with the sense of unbroken sheath of cotton or silk/satin under the skin. I think many of you know what I’m referring to. 

 

Whenever I try to add physical conditioning to this, I feel suffocated; like the muscles develop in strength and begin to strangle the other type of ability generated in the body.  So I stopped physical training several years ago. I revisit from time to time but give up after a few weeks because of what I described.

 

As I’m growing older, I’m putting on more weight, as the metabolism is slowing down. I don’t think I can lose weight without adding some physical conditioning. What do the members on this group do? How do you balance your internal cultivation with physical conditioning?

 

31 minutes ago, dwai said:

But the quantity of food we intake does not easily change. So more calories in, less calories burnt. 

 

Ive done drastic changes to my diet, such as eating only half of what I’d normally eat, and dropped 45-50 lbs in a span of 3-4 months. But old dietary habits are very hard to change. Especially for all us “rice eaters” - it’s as addictive as nicotine imho. 

 

But its it’s just a theory  

 

 

This is an interesting subject dwai.

Since you've already achieved a high level in your taijiquan why throw it away with that kind of training?

As you say you can loose weight by making changes to your diet. One way might be keeping the rice and exclude all the other grains.

By the way I've stopped eating rice about 2 months ago and did not notice the addiction

I'm doing this because I need to gain weight

 

[KuroShiro]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, MuadDib said:

I totally get your concerns. One should remember that there are two sides to the equation when it comes to weight loss: The amount of energy you burn and the amount of fuel you put into your body.

 

The quality of fuel also.

 

On 8/28/2019 at 9:53 PM, MuadDib said:

Hippocrates said that man's best medicine is walking. I believe he was right and your are doing the right thing with the long walks.

 

And the best walking is uphill as it engages the 2nd heart(s).

[escott]

OK, here's how I live what I'm talking about. Woke up, chugged some room temperature water, drunk one cup of water kefir. Took my kid to football practice on the other side of the township at 8:30. Went to a nearby park. Took a short walk. Did some warmups - twisting and slapping, hip rotations, shaking. Then Ba Duan Jin. Then 30 minutes of Zhan Zhuang. Rubbing and patting the whole body afterwards. Then alternate sets of 5*10 wall squats in front of a pole on the baseball backstop and 5*8 reverse hyperextensions on the top-back row of the aluminum bleachers. Now to go pick my son up...

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

My theory is that “good” taiji people become so efficient in terms of proprioception and biomechanics that they exert far less energy to do work than “normal” people do.

 

Doesn't sound right, this is talking about lowering metabolism rather than efficiency.  I think you need to take more iodine, most people have an iodine deficiency, which the standard test do not reveal.  It's part of the great thyroid epidemic, coming soon to a theater near you.

 

Quote

But the quantity of food we intake does not easily change. So more calories in, less calories burnt. 

 

Ive done drastic changes to my diet, such as eating only half of what I’d normally eat, and dropped 45-50 lbs in a span of 3-4 months. But old dietary habits are very hard to change. Especially for all us “rice eaters” - it’s as addictive as nicotine imho. 

 

But its it’s just a theory  

 

 

All grains are inflammatory, pseudo-grains are not inflammatory.  Inflammation causes weight gain due to stored toxins in the body.  In the book "Opening the Dragon Gate" all three of the teacher masters said, at different times, that eating grains causes sickness.

 

Fasting and intermittent fasting are the best way to lose weight and rejuvenate at the same time.  While fasting may be difficult for some, intermittent fasting is easy to get into, and it works nearly as well.  I recommend you do the following, stop eating grains and get your starch from root vegetables.  Drastically reduce carbs and lean towards a ketogenic diet, and use intermittent fasting.  Take plenty of iodine, it is required for healing of any kind.

 

Also, check out the info in Michael's Tabata thread.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Starjumper

[KuroShiro]

On 8/30/2019 at 12:15 PM, MuadDib said:

The Shaolin monk types look very muscular and they seem to do a lot of resistance training - on the videos at least. (Most noticably extreme forms of horse stance and ZZ).

 

Would that indicate that they do not build internal power? Just curious...

 

On 8/30/2019 at 3:23 PM, dwai said:

It’s a different kind of power. Imho, afaik, shaolin style develops what is called “hard qigong” power. It is not the same quality that the Daoist methods cultivate. 

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The Shaolin monks we tend to see performing (or selling online courses) are basically highly trained and extremely skilled acrobats - they do not have internal skill.

 

Shaolin-based Qigong masters (with real skill) are rarer - but do exist. 

 

Feeform, do you know if the Shaolin-based Qigong masters also rely on the Yi Jin Jing, dantien? If they do there really is no major difference between internal Shaolin - “hard qigong” - and Daoist methods?

 

I believe Master Hai Teng achieved a very high level in the internal arts:

 

 

[escott]

I'm not a big "there's an app for that" kind of guy, but in the case of Tabata and HIIT workouts, well... There's An App For That! I've used them and they are really helpful. I've even been thinking of using a Tabata timer for changing Zhan Zhuang positions.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

Feeform, do you know if the Shaolin-based Qigong masters also rely on the Yi Jin Jing, dantien? If they do there really is no major difference between internal Shaolin - “hard qigong” - and Daoist methods?

 

Yi Jin Jing is the basis of all the internal arts - Qi Gong, Nei Gong, Taiji, Bagua etc. And it comes from Shaolin originally. It’s been heavily adopted by Daoists into everything they do.

 

What you call hard Qi Gong, is just conditioning with some elements of the YJJ present - I wouldn’t call it Qi Gong (the mastery of Qi) - it’s just using some tools from the Qi Gong arsenal to develop some capacity.

 

But this stuff is of no interest to me.

 

The Qigong as applied to healing and spiritual cultivation, for me is of a far greater interest.

 

These aspects of Shaolin are not normally shared or demonstrated to the public. And these days Shaolin has become more of a physical training academy and athletic performance centre - rather than a spiritual school.

 

However there are still true masters from the Shaolin line around. They are not the ones breaking bricks or doing acrobatics or other feats for tourists (unsurprisingly)

[silent thunder]

Wonderful conversation.  Thank you all involved.

 

My approach is to use my body and positioning to work my musculature.  I abstain from weight lifting, though did use it for a time in my teens and 20's.  Though I do employ some external weights however, as I build scenery as my job, which is active and involves a fair amount of moving materials and large scenic elements; but when performed intelligently, is not loading the body with extremes of exertion and repetitive lifting of heavy loads.  It is about position, leverage and using help when appropriate, so the body is engaged but never overloaded.

 

My workouts when I am between projects are solely based on my own body-weight and not using external weights of any kind.  Zhan Zhuang, Qi Gong, simple calisthenics (push ups, planks, etc, but mostly lots of simple stretching and breathing) and walking, walking walking.  Morning and Night walking, usually in the hours before dawn and during dusk.

 

For a couple decades my favorite workout was tree and rock climbing.  It engages spherical awareness of mind and full extension of articulating motion while supporting, pulling up and lowering your own body weight, which is what your muscles were designed for and used to accomodating.  This to me, combined with good martial forms, created and maintained a body whose internal joint/tendon connections were strong but also fully flexible.  Iron wrapped in Silk.

 

I am 50 now.  A typical work day is 10 hours, at my pace, I keep up with the 20 somethings I'm training and rarely sweat while doing it.  I've been playing Qi Gong and martial arts for 30 years, been in construction for 23 and wake each morning pain free with good mobility (can place my palms backwards on the floor between my feet without warm ups). 

 

My process is to use and work with my own body weight and positioning to develop and maintain good strength in the connections between muscle and bone, through the full range of motion.  And to stretch, stretch, stretch and walk, walk, walk.

 

Of course, this is only my take.  Not selling anything, only sharing.

Things that were appropriate in my 20's are not so now and vice versa.

 

My Best to all of you on your Paths...

[Desmonddf]

On 27/08/2019 at 5:14 PM, dwai said:

Apologies for a long winded post. 

 

I waned to enquire whether any of you have thoughts on combining strength training with internal arts? 

 

Let me explain what I mean by that. The style of taijiquan I practice emphasizes letting go of muscular strength (li) and rather use jin - I know different people/schools have different ideas about what jin is. 

 

In our system it is considered to be the power generated by accelerating Qi into the bone marrow and the lower Dantien. 

 

So we store power by condensing Qi into the born marrow - my Sifu says it is like burning gas to generate horse power. Eventually it is generated by directing incoming force into the  LDT, which results in power/force rippling out like how a stone is dropped into a pool generates ripples. This ripple effect is capable of returning incoming force, and therefore ends up looking mysterious and woo woo.

 

My experience is, that it took me a long time to get it to a point where it works, to drop my tendency to use physical strength (almost 20 yrs of daily practice now). There is a sense of freedom and relaxation, along with the sense of unbroken sheath of cotton or silk/satin under the skin. I think many of you know what I’m referring to. 

 

Whenever I try to add physical conditioning to this, I feel suffocated; like the muscles develop in strength and begin to strangle the other type of ability generated in the body.  So I stopped physical training several years ago. I revisit from time to time but give up after a few weeks because of what I described.

 

As I’m growing older, I’m putting on more weight, as the metabolism is slowing down. I don’t think I can lose weight without adding some physical conditioning. What do the members on this group do? How do you balance your internal cultivation with physical conditioning?

 

Having the meats, but not using them to do what most people are trained to do - it is indeed difficult, but completely possible.

 

Using one's muscles without getting tense have a lot to do with learning to use the fibers in a completely different way than most people use. Think a roundhouse kick. Can you perform that without letting go of muscle tension? Can you perform any martial arts being stiff as a rock?

 

As you're using your bones and Qi to exert power, tension (and muscle tension as well) will disrupt this flux. In order to be able to use Qi without relying on stop using muscles you'll need to learn something that's almost mystical as well - strong and flexible. To let the muscles permeable even when the fibers are contracting.

 

To learn to be energetically relaxed even while your body tenses small pieces of it. Weight lifting will be especially problematic in this case, as the whole mental memetics around weight lifting have to do with becoming more and more tense, inflamated and swollen.

 

Remember that we have energy channels all over our body, not only our main meridians bot lots of very small meridians which spread everywere. Once you learn how to let those relaxed and open even as the muscular fibers operate - and more, once you learn how to use the contraction and relaxing of the fibers to increase the potency of your accumulations and releases of Qi - then you'll enter a new stage on your practices.

 

That should be it. Good luck

[Earl Grey]

I can't speak much for weight lifting killing sensitivity as I haven't lifted weights since university, almost 15 years ago. 

 

Most of my friends in the internal arts do Zhan Zhuang and the same calisthenics and isometrics I do, while muscle control and contraction are parts of the puzzle for Xin Yi. 

 

Sensitivity for us remains high because we do a lot of push hands, including a super slow version where we're barely touching by hairs and alternate by going as hard as possible to develop that sensitivity. 

 

If you don't have people in a group to practice with, then yes, perhaps sensitivity can be lost, but I have not encountered that with any kind of physical conditioning with any internal artist I have met, though I haven't seen anyone lifting weights because it means they need more Zhan Zhuang to balance the body's muscles as weight lifting imbalances the distribution of muscle. 

[Pero]

On 31. 8. 2019 at 2:49 PM, freeform said:

 

In Qigong you generally sink to your Dantien. In Taiji you sink to your feet and then you ‘fill’ the body from feet up.

 

But yes it’s a similar process. 

 

The problems in taiji practitioners is often because they don’t have the other key circulations functioning as well as Qigong practitioners. So you rarely see spleen issues in skilled Qigong practitioners, but you do see it in skilled taiji practitioners (ones that practice extensively - eg 3 to 4hrs a day).

What are other key circulations?

[liminal_luke]

Is muscular development incompatible with internal power?  I have no idea.  It`s interesting, though, to note the part of myself that rebels against this idea.  What can I say?  I want it all!  There`s a part of me that doesn`t want to accept any limits whatsoever, and yet I think that a big part of life is accepting limitation and loss.

 

Years ago I attended a SunDo retreat (Korean system of Taoist development).  I loved how physical it was.  After the main practice everyone did fingertip pushups.  Advanced practitioners worked up to doing fingertip handstands.  Although this is a visually impressive feat, I believe it also has some spiritual utility.  What`s the relationship between physical strength and spiritual development?  I don`t really know but if I had to guess I`d wager there are no weak immortals.

Edited September 1, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Michael Sternbach]

On 2019/8/31 at 11:16 AM, freeform said:

 

Depends what you mean by ‘best martial artists’.

 

You're never going to have skilled taiji players get in a cage (they’re too old - they just had to take at least 20 years to get actual internal skill - and at least 10 more to get it to a standard where it can be used under extreme pressure - so they’re probably at least in their late 40’s)

 

Any martial art requires decades of dedicated study in order for the practitioner to reach its more advanced levels. And all traditional arts have a concept of chi/ki. The difference is that the internal arts are more sophisticated in terms of its  application and development. It's a matter of emphasis, really.

 

At the same time, there is  less focus on fighting and self-defence respectively in the in the internal styles - with a few notable exceptions, such as Erles Montaigue's school of Taiji and Bagua.

 

A degree of combat effectiveness can basically be attained both in so-called external and internal systems within about half a year - however, this is rather the exception than the rule in the traditional styles, as the external ones are mostly practised as sports and the internal ones as methods of "self-cultivation". 

 

Quote

If you mean which is best in caged combat - then it’s absolutely no contest - the external types will always win...

 

Actually, some internal types are  able to hold their own against the external types rather well. The following tournament recording being a nice example:

 

https://youtu.be/Yfj6oI0xOA4

 

Historically, there were internal masters amongst the most feared of fighters, taking on and winning at virtually every challenge. 

 

Quote

Soldiers in China were not taught internal arts - they were taught how to kill as efficiently as possible (aka just use a spear)

 

Soldiers are not taught any martial arts per se. Just simple methods of destroying the enemy. There is no art in that. 

 

Quote

But when the same fighters are in their 80’s - it’s also a forgone conclusion - but in the opposite direction.

 

That should make for an attractive event on visiting day at the retirement home. 

 

Quote

If your aim is just to win street fights then go for something like Krav Maga - if you want to win in sporting contexts then go for bjj. If you want to develop yourself physically, mentally and energetically whilst refining your character through applied skill then learn Taiji.

 

Thanks, but I am quite satisfied  practising what I sometimes call my Aiki Taikyoku* Kenpo Karate - in regards to all of the above. 

 

* Japanese term for Taiji. 

 

Quote

There’s no better or worse. Who’d win in a fight becomes a bit of a childish comparison when dealing with deep personal development.

 

I brought it up to highlight the discrepancy between what we should be able to expect from the internal approach as opposed to what we generally observe in actuality. A problem that does not cease to fascinate me. If that is childish of me, oh well... I couldn't care less!

 

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And it’s true that some physical martial arts is a good basis for internal martial arts.

 

Looks like we have found a place of agreement after all.

 

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But you will not find anyone who’s able to use true ‘internal’ skill who still lifts weights or practices external martial arts. No one combines internal and external. If they think they do, then they just have an adapted external style.

 

Oh... That didn't last long.

 

So I take it that, according to you, e.g., renown masters Jwing Ming Yang (Fujian White Crane and Taiji) and Wing Lam (Hung Gar and Bagua) are nothing but ignorant amateurs. 

 

The latter actually discusses how much internal vs. external force is being used in each technique in his video on Iron Palm. 

 

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I think the main issue is that very few people have actually met and experienced someone with deep internal skill. Once you do, the difference between internal and external becomes very obvious. 

 

Rather, it is the difference between individual practitioners that may become obvious.