Proposed simplification of forums

[Sebastian]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The Dao Bums is wonderful and dangerous, a garden with the most ambrosial edible flowers and a few brilliantly colored poisonous plants, all growing together in a gorgeous wild heap.   I wouldn´t want it any other way. This place attracts a vibrant mix of people. We´ve got sages and scholars, scoundrels and (occasional) saints.

 

So TheDaoBums is like this ....

 

 

And Sean invented it all ! We're all beings from the Garden of Sean. Sean only did it in 3 days by the way, much respect sir !

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, moment said:

Since earliest times, human thought has been characterized by an awareness of man's close relationship with nature and a cyclical view of time and the universe..

Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism all operate within this ancient worldview and incorporates many of its concepts.  There has been sages/ adepts in all three ways without prior lineage.  Of course, It is usually easier and better for most to learn from a teacher with credible lineage, but is not impossible to discover it on your own.

 

I would be careful not to romanticize and simplify "this ancient worldview."  http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/07/genetical-observations-on-caste/

 

Quote

 

In short, it looks like most Indian jatis [Jati, also spelled jat, caste, in Hindu society. The term is derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” ] have been genetically endogamous for ~2,000 years, and, varna groups exhibit some consistent genetic differences.

This is relevant because it makes the social constructionist view rather untenable. The genetic distinctiveness of jati groups is very hard to deny, it jumps out of the data. The assertions about varna are fuzzier. But, on the whole Brahmins across South Asia have the most ancestry from ancient “steppe” groups, while Dalits across South Asia have the least. Kshatriya is closer to Brahmins. Vaisya has lower fractions of “steppe”. And so on. These varna generalizations aren’t as clear and distinct as jati endogamy. Sudras from Punjab may have as much or more “steppe” than South Indian Brahmins. But the coarse patterns are striking.

As a geneticist, and as an irreligious atheist, a lot of the conversations about “caste” are irrelevant to me. They’re semantical.

You can tell me that true Hinduism doesn’t have caste, that it was “invented” by Westerners. They may not have had caste, but the genetical data is clear that South Asians were endogamous for 2,000 years to an extreme degree. Additionally, the classical caste hierarchy seems to correlate with particular ancestry fractions.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, moment said:

Since earliest times, human thought has been characterized by an awareness of man's close relationship with nature and a cyclical view of time and the universe..

Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism all operate within this ancient worldview and incorporates many of its concepts.  There has been sages/ adepts in all three ways without prior lineage.  Of course, It is usually easier and better for most to learn from a teacher with credible lineage, but is not impossible to discover it on your own.

 

Yes, and I very much agree to your non-sectarian view of those ancient traditions. You might as well add Western Occultism (aka 'Hermetism', for simplicity's sake) to them.

 

All of them are valid approaches to experiencing and relating to the One reality that lies beyond them and that therefore no tradition and recognized master can lay claim to exclusively. That reality just transgresses all boundaries of lineage, culture, space and time...

 

Thus, it makes sense to cross reference various metaphysical systems. In fact, they sometimes elucidate each other by providing an external frame of reference. Yet we should appreciate their unique characteristics and distinctions as well.

 

It's just like in martial arts: We generally look at them as more or less individual fields of study, although some practitioners are well aware of there being a 'formless stage' at which - in essence - they all blend into one. However, it goes without saying that that is a level of expression rarely attained!

 

So things being the way they are, I feel a place such as this forum will do well to maintain a certain structure for reasons of practicality.

 

Now that I mentioned it - what do you guys think about having a distinct section for martial arts?  We have quite a lot of MA topics that would be hard to classify as either Buddhist or Daoist, and 'general discussion' doesn't seem to be such a good match either.

[moment]

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I would be careful not to romanticize and simplify "this ancient worldview."  http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/07/genetical-observations-on-caste/

 

 

Romanticize would not be the proper term concerning me.  I just choose to look deeper at a simpler more radical reality I always appreciate diverse historical information though and the obvious hard work you have put into acquiring it.

 

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes, and I very much agree to your non-sectarian view of those ancient traditions. You might as well add Western Occultism (aka 'Hermetism', for simplicity's sake) to them.

 

All of them are valid approaches to experiencing and relating to the One reality that lies beyond them and that therefore no tradition and recognized master can lay claim to exclusively. That reality just transgresses all boundaries of lineage, culture, space and time...

 

Thus, it makes sense to cross reference various metaphysical systems. In fact, they sometimes elucidate each other by providing an external frame of reference. Yet we should appreciate their unique characteristics and distinctions as well.

 

It's just like in martial arts: We generally look at them as more or less individual fields of study, although some practitioners are well aware of there being a 'formless stage' at which - in essence - they all blend into one. However, it goes without saying that that is a level of expression rarely attained!

 

So things being the way they are, I feel a place such as this forum will do well to maintain a certain structure for reasons of practicality.

 

Now that I mentioned it - what do you guys think about having a distinct section for martial arts?  We have quite a lot of MA topics that would be hard to classify as either Buddhist or Daoist, and 'general discussion' doesn't seem to be such a good match either.

I am absolutely amazed!  You have not said a single thing here I disagree with.  That does not happen for me often. 

I also would like to see a distinct section for martial arts.

Edited August 10, 2019 by moment

[wandelaar]

Why not make a section for Taoist and other spiritual arts generally (not just the martial arts). Like: Arts and Practices

Edited August 10, 2019 by wandelaar

[moment]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Why not make a section for Taoist and other spiritual arts generally (not just the martial arts). Like: Arts and Practices

 

Because you can have one without the other (though I do believe they complement each other) and information on both is vast so, more structure helps researchers.

 

 

[wandelaar]

I was thinking of Traditional Chinese Medicine, calligraphy, tea ceremony, Taoist magic, feng shui, etc. If we add martial arts to this list they could together form the section: Arts and Practices.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I was thinking of Traditional Chinese Medicine, calligraphy, tea ceremony, Taoist magic, feng shui, etc. If we add martial arts to this list they could together form the section: Arts and Practices.

 

Practices would have to include meditation practices, obviously.

So far, people were discussing Buddhist types of meditation in the Buddhist section etc., and that seems to have worked well. I am not saying it could not be done the way you are suggesting, but in that case, we should better subdivide Arts and Practices further (meditation practices, healing arts, martial arts, and so forth). Mixing tea ceremony with MMA and Golden Dawn Magick in the same forum indistinguishably somehow feels awkward...

 

Also, this would mean that more theoretical topics would still belong into the respective Daoist, Buddhist, etc. forums, whereas related practices would get mixed up. Don't you think newbies and even old users could easily get confused as to the correct place to start a new topic then? I don't think this would really serve to simplify the forum, TBH.

 

I suggested a separate martial arts forum simply because we get so many threads of that kind and because it would simplify things. I doubt that many would think of placing a thread on Aikido in the Buddhist section anyway, even though it could be argued that Aikido is a zen based art. Whereas a thread on zazen would fit in there quite naturally.Ich

 

Thoughts?

[wandelaar]

@ Michael Sternbach

 

Yes - Arts and Practices would have to be a high level section, preferable with subsections as you proposed. This would then take care of the more practically oriented discussions. 

 

The mainly theoretical discussions would then take place in Sean's proposed section:

 

Quote

Focused Traditions

• Daoist (merges Daodejing, Zhuangzi, etc.)
  • 道家学说
  • Interviews
  • Textual Studies
• Buddhist
• Vedic
• Occult

 

[manitou]

I suppose Arts and Practices could include shamanic healing and ceremony as well.

[ilumairen]

Have we just moved from simplification to expansion? 

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, manitou said:

I suppose Arts and Practices could include shamanic healing and ceremony as well.

 

The Dao Bums > Arts and Practices >  Healing Arts

 

Simple

[MegaMind]

On 8/8/2019 at 8:55 PM, Taomeow said:

I still remember the first branching of "daoist" off the "general" and the reason it happened.   It happened because taoists (it was still TTB then) and taoist sympathizers were vastly outnumbered and incessantly outshouted in the general area by members of far more densely populated denominations, chiefly buddhists and new agers.  Some of the latter, encouraged by their strength in numbers, derailed every single taoist-proper thread by pointing out that it's not real dharma, it's samsara, it's maya, it's against the Law of One, against the Law of Attraction, and not what Jesus would have done.  The embattled taoists, ganged up on and cornered and bruised, used up all their qi on hissing and meowing back in response to all these allegations, in a cloud of cat fur torn out by mala-twirling, khorlo-spinning hands of the hordes of pious sages, occasionally swinging back a paw and tearing a claw mark into a priestly robe.  Well, one or two of them may have done it, not saying all taoists fight back, but when it was proposed to give taoists a place for taoist-proper exchanges, all taoists and sympathizers rejoiced if memory serves.    

 

Considering this past experience, I propose a choice of two possible solutions:

1. still keep a daoist proper area alongside general, and maybe put daoist textual studies there as well; or

2. extend some minority protections to daoist-proper discussions.  I don't know what shape or form those might take, but I anticipate the need for them.  

 

And a far more important proposal:

reinstate mod rotation and stipulate that this rule can never be suspended again.  I believe this particular rule is needed more than all other innovations combined.  Just imagine this on the news tomorrow:  the president has decided to abolish all rotations in the oval office.  No more presidents coming and going, end of story, whoever is in the office is forever. 

 

Regardless of anyone's subjective feelings about this or that past mod, objectively,  we were stuck with a Putin-like and possibly a Kim Jong Un-like deal, though even Putin and Kim Jong Un were at least pretend elected.  The unelected mods who come and never go away are perhaps wonderful people when they start out -- then complete lack of accountability coupled with this realization at the back of their minds -- I do whatever I want so suck it up because I'm here to stay -- forever -- changes even the best (yes it can, and yes it does) into, sometimes, screwy mods, sometimes triumphant abusive bullies, and sometimes just into burned-out whateverists.  

 

Please let's not risk it happening again.

 

Edit: Bold and red colouring done by me not Taomeow.

 

 

@sean

 

I think Tao Meow's second statement is right on the money. 

 

My group's experience here has been a nightmare.

 

We have sought only to politely defend against personal attacks on ourselves, our teachers and our practice.

 

We have attempted to remain as respectful as is possible and defend ourselves, our teachers and our practice.

 

Members were frequently told they could not reply to attacks on themselves, their teachers or practice, and to create a new thread for discussion on that.

 

They followed instruction and created a new thread in their PPD and their PPD was suspended for some unknown rule violation even though they did exactly as they were told to do.

 

When they pointed out this treatment was not fair, they were banned for it.

 

I have no way to convey to you how cruel it is to watch your teachers, your group members, and your practice raked over the coals time and time again, and not be able to even correct falsehoods politely about it without being banned because "you created too much review on staff". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some specific examples below:


https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/?page=49&tab=comments#comment-779798
 

On 8/28/2017 at 12:13 AM, Kar3n said:

 Seems pretty chicken shit to me for your fellow forum members and master to sit back allow you to take all of the heat you have. Is your being here some sort of initiation or hazing your group imparts on its members?
 

(-Kar3n an outspoken anti-mo-pai moderator)

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/?page=52&tab=comments#comment-780234

 

On 8/29/2017 at 2:07 PM, Kar3n said:

that is bullshit and you know it. Grow up, show us some of what "actual meditation will do for us" and wait for things to be discussed by staff before you play the victim.

 

(-Kar3n an outspoken anti-mo-pai moderator)

 

 

 

On 8/17/2017 at 10:32 AM, Kar3n said:

Even with all of the documentation you have, your group is still not authorized to teach the system.

 

I've the right to question and relay my views on anything. Is seeking to inform the unsuspecting member of possibly damaging themselves due to something that is incomplete, potentially dangerous and taught without the proper support from lineage holders and masters of a tradition such a bad thing? No, no it is not. It is the responsible thing to do.

 

As far as recusal goes, I have the integrity it takes to take a step back when I do not think that I can not let my personal relationships or involvement in a situation not be an influence. I have done so in the past, and will do so again if necessary, however this is not one of those cases. There is nothing to decide on a staff level at present.

 

If you'd like to talk morality, then why don't you publicly acknowledge and state you are not authorized to teach or share the MoPai system and are presenting an incomplete, pirated version?

 

(-Kar3n an outspoken anti-mo-pai moderator)



https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/47711-mopai-only-open-to-ethnical-chinese/?do=findComment&comment=844647

"I will have to disagree with you that every voice is allowed. Others are free to trash talk Mopai and our group as much as they want, and as often as they want, however, if we respond (respectfully I might add) to their attacks we are told we may no longer participate in the thread. If I quote them to respond to the attack in my PPD, my PPD is suspended for violating some unknown rule. The best I can do now is to not quote anyone and express myself in my PPD. The best the rest of the group can do is remain silent and not mention anything related to Mopai in their posts here for fear of being targeted. "


After his post here disagreeing with Admin Dawei, he was banned and the official explanation for this ban is located here:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/47734-ilovecoffee-is-banned/

 

 

On 9/25/2018 at 11:13 AM, dawei said:

he did finally just create too much review on staff with his insistent cry that staff was biased, membership was biased

 

 

 

-Admin Dawei.

 

Some more here:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44964-the-staff-are-not-biased/

 

On 8/19/2017 at 5:44 PM, dawei said:

There is really no reason to disparage Mo Pai as its history is Indonesian and traces back to Mozi... and while JC said he was not a daoist, Kosta made a fatal flaw in titling his Magus book against JC comments as, An Authentic Taoist Immortal.   Kosta was deluded to think he was a spokesperson and an author.  If he can't reflect the comments of JC correctly, how could someone expect him to reflect the training correctly.   McMillian wasn't taught to do reverse breathing and thus lost 10 (?) years of training?

 

While I admire the system and ability of JC... the teaching is fraught with mis-teaching.  The Indonesian students often come back here to re-state that this is not a part of their lineage.

 

Folks will follow what they want and try a system that has not basis for the complete system.

 

When you have levels 1-3 of 72... it is a wake-up call... at least in terms of rational thinking... there is no completion for the system.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44928-mo-pai-group/?page=31&tab=comments#comment-777034

 

On 8/18/2017 at 12:36 PM, dawei said:

 

I'm not sure why someone who requires supplements to help get in a trance state wouldn't see that something seems amiss... it is the practice tell you, 'this is not for you'.   Nonetheless, folks will pursue whatever they want and the warnings to others to be careful of such practices extends to those who think they are following the real teaching. 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44928-mo-pai-group/?page=25&tab=comments#comment-776510

 

 

On 8/19/2017 at 9:04 PM, dawei said:

I get it... you are in a very small world where 3-4% of a total system is paramount to stand by.

 

Best wishes on your path. 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44928-mo-pai-group/?page=31&tab=comments#comment-777070

 

On 8/27/2017 at 10:49 PM, Kar3n said:

Jim is not teaching for obvious reasons. And, as far as I can tell Kosta is not involved with your group.

 

Call me crazy, but that tells me you don't have a teacher.

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/?page=48&tab=comments#comment-779747

 

 

On 8/27/2017 at 10:27 PM, Kar3n said:

I wondered that too. You know, no teacher and all...

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/?page=48&tab=comments#comment-779736

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by MildMouse23

[liminal_luke]

4 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

My group's experience here has been a nightmare.

 

Then why stay?

[MegaMind]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Then why stay?

 

Because luke for whatever reason thedaobums is the landing spot for all people seeking mo pai, and when they come here they get their heads filled with lies and disinformation.  

 

Our hope is we can reach these people before the trolls have a chance to convince them it is all bullsnot, so they can practice and see for themselves the truth of the matter.

Edited August 10, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

On 8/9/2019 at 9:40 AM, Earl Grey said:

 

Speaking from another vantage point outside of being a practitioner--I speak as an Asian and Asian American here. When I refer to New Agers and disdain for them, I'm referring to the suburban whiteness of yoga and how there's cultural appropriation that is now commercialized and diminished into a fitness regiment. Not to say there is no sincerity, for there is--I just won't go looking for depth there, especially when someone talks about the lower dantian as needing to balance one's masculine and feminine and demonstrates a spectacular level of ignorance and zero understanding of neigong or TCM. 

 

Besides: I've held disdain for the New Agers since I started seeing blondes on campus wearing bindis and giving themselves mystical names (Sanskrit or Japanese names) while telling everyone to chant "Om" into their water and telling others to go vegan if they want to be true "yogis". And this is from me who used to think shouting at Hare Krishnas begging at airports before was mean. 

 

There's no problem getting information from bookstores or even checking out what's online--it's the self-appointed authority people give themselves I am referring to, if that wasn't clear above. One notorious practice that many seem to find themselves self-designated authorities on besides the dantian is Zhan Zhuang.

 

The naive can be naive as you embrace their sincerity, but it can also cause serious damage when people do things like one individual who tried to combine reverse breathing with Mo Pai breathing and Flying Phoenix not long ago. Now if they're receptive to feedback and help from people who actually are able to help (and in some cases willing to pay the price for it because true mastery is not free), then it's fine for me as well. 

 

They can and do cause themselves serious damage and then blame mo pai for it.

[steve]

The issue with Mo Pai is all about the behavior of its exponents and response of members and moderators here and completely unrelated to simplification of the forums.

 

Please take any MoPai issues to a different thread.

[MegaMind]

17 minutes ago, steve said:

The issue with Mo Pai is all about the behavior of its exponents and response of members and moderators here and completely unrelated to simplification of the forums.

 

Please take any MoPai issues to a different thread.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Not my intention to bring up mo pai, so much as how our group was treated in support of Taomeow's assessment below. 

 

Edit: Bold and red colouring done by me not Taomeow.

 

On 8/8/2019 at 8:55 PM, Taomeow said:

And a far more important proposal:

reinstate mod rotation and stipulate that this rule can never be suspended again.  I believe this particular rule is needed more than all other innovations combined.  Just imagine this on the news tomorrow:  the president has decided to abolish all rotations in the oval office.  No more presidents coming and going, end of story, whoever is in the office is forever. 

 

Regardless of anyone's subjective feelings about this or that past mod, objectively,  we were stuck with a Putin-like and possibly a Kim Jong Un-like deal, though even Putin and Kim Jong Un were at least pretend elected.  The unelected mods who come and never go away are perhaps wonderful people when they start out -- then complete lack of accountability coupled with this realization at the back of their minds -- I do whatever I want so suck it up because I'm here to stay -- forever -- changes even the best (yes it can, and yes it does) into, sometimes, screwy mods, sometimes triumphant abusive bullies, and sometimes just into burned-out whateverists.  

 

Please let's not risk it happening again.  

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by MildMouse23

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes, and I very much agree to your non-sectarian view of those ancient traditions. You might as well add Western Occultism (aka 'Hermetism', for simplicity's sake) to them.

 

All of them are valid approaches to experiencing and relating to the One reality that lies beyond them and that therefore no tradition and recognized master can lay claim to exclusively. That reality just transgresses all boundaries of lineage, culture, space and time...

 

Thus, it makes sense to cross reference various metaphysical systems. In fact, they sometimes elucidate each other by providing an external frame of reference. Yet we should appreciate their unique characteristics and distinctions as well.

 

It's just like in martial arts: We generally look at them as more or less individual fields of study, although some practitioners are well aware of there being a 'formless stage' at which - in essence - they all blend into one. However, it goes without saying that that is a level of expression rarely attained!

 

So things being the way they are, I feel a place such as this forum will do well to maintain a certain structure for reasons of practicality.

 

Now that I mentioned it - what do you guys think about having a distinct section for martial arts?  We have quite a lot of MA topics that would be hard to classify as either Buddhist or Daoist, and 'general discussion' doesn't seem to be such a good match either.

How about - Daoist discussion and then "Postmodern Hodge-Podge of all other esoteric traditions" section.

Or wait - I forgot - we're supposed to be now claiming that Western esoteric views are equivalent as Daoist ones!

haha. Of course Westerners "want" to think this as it is much more convenient - as a Westerner - to not want to change as much. And who wants to admit that  Western civilization has been wrong all along?

Anyone?

 

So we have here a dualistic logical paradox. We want a syntactical merger without wanting to recognize an inherent difference.

This can happen although a destructive process will be inevitable along the way.

 

In other words Western "spiritual materialism" - based on the Golden Ratio, Freemasonry, etc. - is going the opposite direction as the traditional nonwestern spiritual training based on ecology. The Western Greek Miracle is based on a materialistic "containment of infinity" using geometry. Oops. That leads you into a discussion about how the West is creating the worst ecological crisis in Earth's history of life. I did my master's thesis on this but even that was not radical enough - it was too Western since I erroneously equated logistic equations with the Taiji. haha.

 

And we've had this discussion before on this website - debate even. But guess what? Words really don't change what is hard-wired into Western culture. And the world is being Westernized - not the other way around. In fact Daoism in China has become just another late capitalist commodity fetish - with the Daoist priests demanding credit cards. haha.

 

Sure there's some exceptions but for example qigong master Yan Xin is in hiding - whether by personal choice or by force of the Regime - it's a mix I'm sure. David Palmer has done an excellent analysis of this dynamic in his book "Qigong Fever."

 

So essentially the qigong master craze of the 1980s acted as a "vanishing mediator" to enable China to Westernize! (ironically). In other words it created a catalyst to increase the brain power but once the qigong got too powerful as a mass movement, then the regime put the big crack down on qigong -  it had served its purpose. Now it was to be relegated to a simple, less powerful "home improvement" model for consumerism. So you know how to best Feng Shui your car and house by purchasing mirrors and jade or whatever. No more long cave meditation full lotus no sleep bigu fasting for advanced students. haha.

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

Here's a thought: should there be a section for reporting scams and historical archives of past scam attempts from banned members or sources that have proven to be frauds? 

[Taomeow]

@MildMouse23  Thank you for finding my post worthy of your support toward making your own and your group's case.

 

 I've a favor to ask though: when you quote me and modify the original by adding red and huge fonts, could you also specify that the HUGE BOLD RED parts are your personal editing/addition and not mine?  Many thanks.   

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

@MildMouse23  Thank you for finding my post worthy of your support toward making your own and your group's case.

 

 I've a favor to ask though: when you quote me and modify the original by adding red and huge fonts, could you also specify that the HUGE BOLD RED parts are your personal editing/addition and not mine?  Many thanks.   

 

I edited to point that out, thanks.

[wandelaar]

Could the MoPai discussion please be held in a topic of it's own? 

[MegaMind]

Just now, wandelaar said:

Could the MoPai discussion please be held in a topic of it's own? 

 

It's not supposed to be a Mo Pai discussion so much as just an agreement with sources with Taomeow's post.

[moment]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Then why stay?

Rude and unkind